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Woodward/Costa book: Worried Trump could 'go rogue,' Milley took secret action to protect nuclear we

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Doug1066
9 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

It's impossible to have a serious discussion when others in the discussion do not understand what the actual laws, regulations, and checks and balances are. You have no idea how the Military works, and neither does anyone else who is posting here currently. I have read the article and I fully understand what is being discussed here, I have asked you to research my comments if you think I am wrong, you choose not to do that obviously because you don't really care. Now that's ok but, I have remained respectful throughout this conversation, but I will not continue to present facts when you are basing you points upon opinions, I learned long ago to never waste my time discussing opinions.

Peace Dude. 

He accuses me of not reading the articles, then he doesn't.

Doug

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OverSword
5 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

It's impossible to have a serious discussion when others in the discussion do not understand what the actual laws, regulations, and checks and balances are. You have no idea how the Military works, and neither does anyone else who is posting here currently. I have read the article and I fully understand what is being discussed here, I have asked you to research my comments if you think I am wrong, you choose not to do that obviously because you don't really care. Now that's ok but, I have remained respectful throughout this conversation, but I will not continue to present facts when you are basing you points upon opinions, I learned long ago to never waste my time discussing opinions.

Peace Dude. 

What exactly in your comments would you like me to research?  I know soldiers aren't supposed to obey orders they believe are illegal.  But they are not supposed to tell people to ignore the chain of command.  Is Milley stupid enough to think the people he works with don't know this or cant tell what's legal or not?  It really doesn't matter since the more I think of it the  more I believe Milley is lying about the whole thing.  It's just a stunt to get his name out there when he runs for office.

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OverSword
7 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Trump has vested a great deal of his identity in always being a winner.  In 2020 he was about the biggest loser anyone can imagine.  The voters flat-out fired him.  The depression that set in came with a departure from reality which is still with him - he thinks he won the election.  With that hallucination rattling around in his head, there is plenty  to worry about.  That you weren't worried says more about you than it does about him.

Doug

I'm not the worrying sort.  ;)  I wouldn't call getting 20 million more votes than he did in 2016 exactly flat out fired, not that it matters.  Did he launch a nuke I wasn't aware of?  Did Milley prevent him from launching a nuke that you are aware of?  So what the F was there to worry about?  :rolleyes:

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Doug1066
5 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I'm not the worrying sort.  ;)  I wouldn't call getting 20 million more votes than he did in 2016 exactly flat out fired, not that it matters.  Did he launch a nuke I wasn't aware of?  Did Milley prevent him from launching a nuke that you are aware of?  So what the F was there to worry about?  :rolleyes:

I don't know whether Milley kept him from launching a nuke, but if he had and Milley wasn't there, I'd probably know it - if I was still alive.

Doug

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acidhead
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

 

At the time this was done the President was in complete meltdown mode, he had lost the Election and was not acting in a reasonable manner.

 

 

 

Your timeline is off buds.  

Milley's first secret call to China was in October, 2020 according to Woodward. The second call to China was on January 8, 2021. 

 

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Manwon Lender
34 minutes ago, OverSword said:

What exactly in your comments would you like me to research?  I know soldiers aren't supposed to obey orders they believe are illegal.  But they are not supposed to tell people to ignore the chain of command.  Is Milley stupid enough to think the people he works with don't know this or cant tell what's legal or not?  It really doesn't matter since the more I think of it the  more I believe Milley is lying about the whole thing.  It's just a stunt to get his name out there when he runs for office.

The duty and obligation to obey lawful orders creates no grey area for discussion. But does the military member have a duty to DISOBEY “unlawful orders” including orders of senior officers, Secretary of Defense and even the President of the United States? The UCMJ actually protects the soldier in this situation as he/she has a moral and legal obligation to the Constitution and not to obey unlawful orders and the people who issue them.

These have to be strong examples of a direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ and not the military member’s own opinion. Military discipline and effectiveness are built on a foundation of obedience to orders. Recruits are taught to obey orders from their superiors immediately and without question, right from day one of boot camp.

Lawful Orders 

Military members failing to obey lawful orders issued by their superiors risk serious consequences. Article 90 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)outlines the crime of willful disobedience by a military member a superior commissioned officer. Article 91 covers willful disobedience of a superior Noncommissioned or Warrant Officer. Article 92conveys what constitutes the crime of disobedience of any lawful order (the disobedience does not have to be "willful" under this article).

These articles require the obedience of LAWFULorders. Not only should an unlawful order not be obeyed, obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders.
 
 

 

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jmccr8
4 hours ago, OverSword said:

What exactly in your comments would you like me to research?  I know soldiers aren't supposed to obey orders they believe are illegal.  But they are not supposed to tell people to ignore the chain of command.  Is Milley stupid enough to think the people he works with don't know this or cant tell what's legal or not?  It really doesn't matter since the more I think of it the  more I believe Milley is lying about the whole thing.  It's just a stunt to get his name out there when he runs for office.

Hi OverSword

Anyone under his direction in his department takes their orders from him and answer to him, he answers to those above him so all he has done is say do nothing until you get my go ahead and that is well within his purview to do so and verify orders as launching nukes is not a neighborly thing to do in most cases and is a serious matter.

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OverSword
3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

The duty and obligation to obey lawful orders creates no grey area for discussion. But does the military member have a duty to DISOBEY “unlawful orders” including orders of senior officers, Secretary of Defense and even the President of the United States? The UCMJ actually protects the soldier in this situation as he/she has a moral and legal obligation to the Constitution and not to obey unlawful orders and the people who issue them.

These have to be strong examples of a direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ and not the military member’s own opinion. Military discipline and effectiveness are built on a foundation of obedience to orders. Recruits are taught to obey orders from their superiors immediately and without question, right from day one of boot camp.

Lawful Orders 

Military members failing to obey lawful orders issued by their superiors risk serious consequences. Article 90 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)outlines the crime of willful disobedience by a military member a superior commissioned officer. Article 91 covers willful disobedience of a superior Noncommissioned or Warrant Officer. Article 92conveys what constitutes the crime of disobedience of any lawful order (the disobedience does not have to be "willful" under this article).

These articles require the obedience of LAWFULorders. Not only should an unlawful order not be obeyed, obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders.
 
 

 

TDS

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OverSword
11 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi OverSword

Anyone under his direction in his department takes their orders from him and answer to him, he answers to those above him so all he has done is say do nothing until you get my go ahead and that is well within his purview to do so and verify orders as launching nukes is not a neighborly thing to do in most cases and is a serious matter.

And so why would he have bothered to say anything to them? Did he think trump was going to come on over to the Pentagon and start ordering his underlings around? The more I consider all this the more full of crap I realize Milley is. This entire thread is based on a fiction Miley told in order to start a narrative about himself. In the end he will be just another egomaniac politician trying to get more power by any means necessary 

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jmccr8
4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

And so why would he have bothered to say anything to them? Did he think trump was going to come on over to the Pentagon and start ordering his underlings around? The more I consider all this the more full of crap I realize Milley is. This entire thread is based on a fiction Miley told in order to start a narrative about himself. In the end he will be just another egomaniac politician trying to get more power by any means necessary 

Hi OverSword

Did anyone report that they had been ordered not to obey orders, for me this is just blown out of proportion hype to start with. Well if you think he is going into politics, okay but I thought there were some restrictions as to retired or active duty for offices voted for?

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Manwon Lender
19 minutes ago, OverSword said:

TDS

Thanks for the compliment, however I have proven my point which is not based upon an opinion. 

There is no reason we should act like enemies, and call each other names it stops us both from getting useful information from our conversation. Do to your response it is clear that you now have a better understanding of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice ( UCMJ ). It also should be clear the General Miley did not violate any part of the UCMJ by telling his subordinates to contact him before carrying out any orders from the Oval Office.

Because any military command decisions should go through him before any military orders are issued to the US Military because he would be the one to issue those orders since he is the top of the military leadership. To circumvent him and issue any orders too any branch of the Military, is an illegal breech by the Civilian command authority which would make those instructions a criminal act and the Senior Military Leadership would not be required to follow them according to the Constitution and the UCMJ.

Whether he ever did feel the need to tell the Military Leadership to contact him before following orders from the White House remains to be seen. But, if he did do so it was because he felt that the President was not acting responsibily, and if that were the case what he did was the right thing to do according to the UCMJ.

Its all about checks and balances nothing more and nothing less.

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Manwon Lender
5 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

He accuses me of not reading the articles, then he doesn't.

Doug

Don't get drawn into a conversation based upon opinions, just move on and don't respond. It serves no purpose for any of us to treat each other like enemies, I know for a fact your a well educated man so I am certain you understand that. Sometimes it just better to say nothing than to also become as angry as the others and respond in a similar fashion. 

Peace my friend.

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South Alabam
6 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Thanks for the compliment, however I have proven my point which is not based upon an opinion. 

There is no reason we should act like enemies, and call each other names it stops us both from getting useful information from our conversation. Do to your response it is clear that you now have a better understanding of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice ( UCMJ ). It also should be clear the General Miley did not violate any part of the UCMJ by telling his subordinates to contact him before carrying out any orders from the Oval Office.

Because any military command decisions should go through him before any military orders are issued to the US Military because he would be the one to issue those orders since he is the top of the military leadership. To circumvent him and issue any orders too any branch of the Military, is an illegal breech by the Civilian command authority which would make those instructions a criminal act and the Senior Military Leadership would not be required to follow them according to the Constitution and the UCMJ.

Whether he ever did feel the need to tell the Military Leadership to contact him before following orders from the White House remains to be seen. But, if he did do so it was because he felt that the President was not acting responsibily, and if that were the case what he did was the right thing to do according to the UCMJ.

Its all about checks and balances nothing more and nothing less.

Exactly.

Trump tried to stay in power using the Judicial branch "Just say the election was corrupt" 

The Legislative branch "and leave the rest to me, and the Republican lawmaker's"

and the Executive Branch "If Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election."

 

There was a reason we have these checks and balances, and it worked to keep a traitorous tyrant out of Office.

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Manwon Lender
29 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

Exactly.

Trump tried to stay in power using the Judicial branch "Just say the election was corrupt" 

The Legislative branch "and leave the rest to me, and the Republican lawmaker's"

and the Executive Branch "If Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election."

 

There was a reason we have these checks and balances, and it worked to keep a traitorous tyrant out of Office.

Remember when Trump wanted to put active military on the streets of America, the Military would not bow to him because his orders were illegal. Thank God we have a Military that uses those checks and balances for the reason they were put in place.

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acidhead
7 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

 

At the time this was done the President was in complete meltdown mode, he had lost the Election and was not acting in a reasonable manner.

 

 

 

Your timeline is off buds.  

Milley's first secret call to China was in October, 2020 according to Woodward. The second call to China was on January 8, 2021. 

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acidhead

Just curious.. why did Miley call China?

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Tatetopa
27 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Just curious.. why did Miley call China?

Part of his job.

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Tatetopa

Milley is now going to have to  testify to Congress.  When he gets up there under oath, he is going to be asked what made him so concerned about Jan. 6 and what he saw of Trump's involvement as well as other plans that Trump was fomenting.  They won't take his word for it, they will call in other Trump Administration staff and Cabinet   If the other witnesses corroborate his story and it really seems like President Trump was  trying to remain in power by illegal means. it will look worse for ex-president Trump.   Could go either way.

Republicans think they opened a can of Whoopass.  They might have opened a can of worms.

 

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toast

Dont forget: in human history, two nuclear attacks were performed and both of them were ordered by a nations leader (Truman). At least two nuclear attack options we know of were prevented by at that time actice military members on duty: Vasili Arkhipov/Cuba 1962 and Stanislaw Petrow/Moscow 1983. Which raises the question: who is/are the better decision maker/s? The guy on the wooden desk or the guys at the trigger? For me, the answer is clear.

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Milley is now going to have to  testify to Congress.  When he gets up there under oath, he is going to be asked what made him so concerned about Jan. 6 and what he saw of Trump's involvement as well as other plans that Trump was fomenting.  They won't take his word for it, they will call in other Trump Administration staff and Cabinet   If the other witnesses corroborate his story and it really seems like President Trump was  trying to remain in power by illegal means. it will look worse for ex-president Trump.   Could go either way.

Republicans think they opened a can of Whoopass.  They might have opened a can of worms.

 

Honestly Tate anyone who doesn't understand why General Milley and many others thought that President Trump was not acting in a mentally responsible manner after he lost the Election and anyone who doesn't understand this is in denial for the following reasons!

1. The President attacked members of the Republican Party and the Georgia secretary of state Brad Raffensperger for not being able to find 11,780 votes for him. When Raffensperger did not bow to pressure the President publicly attacked him. In addition his wife's unlisted and classified phone number was some how released for the first time to unknown people, and do to this his family received death threats. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/03/trump-georgia-raffensperger-call-biden-washington-post. -  Death Threats https://www.businessinsider.com/georgia-secretary-of-state-and-his-wife-receive-death-threats-2020-11

2. The President stopped performing all of his responsibilities and surrounded himself with Conspiracy Theorists who also included his lawyers and plotted to over throw an election he lost. The following is an exact quote of one of those lawyers saying that the Conspiracy Theories she pushed were false statements from the beginning.  Pro-Trump lawyer Sidney Powell says ‘no reasonable person’ believes election claims were ‘statements of fact’ https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/23/pro-trump-lawyer-sidney-powell-election-theft-claims-not-statements-of-fact.html

3. On 9 November 2020 just days after the President lost the Election in a very very bizarre move the President tried to pull U.S. forces from Afghanistan and swaths of the Middle East, Africa and even Europe ahead of Joe Biden's inauguration. There was absolutely no purpose for this other than mentally unbalanced vindictive behaviour that actually if it was not stopped by the Military would have put the National Security of the United States at risk. This attempted action has been named Trump's war with his generals.  https://www.axios.com/off-the-rails-trump-military-withdraw-afghanistan-5717012a-d55d-4819-a79f-805d5eb3c6e2.html

4.  Then on 6 January 2021 the insurrectionists that attempt to capture Representatives of our Nation, including the Vice President were sent to the Capitol Grounds were the President said he would meet them which he never did. Before sending them to the Capitol the message was spread to the Presidents base that the Vice President had betrayed him. When the Capitol  Insurrection started Trumps Base was hurting the Vice President screaming Hang Mike Pence!

""It’s part of the fallout from an extraordinary 24-hour stretch in which Pence openly defied Trump, Trump unleashed his fury on the vice president, and a mob of violent supporters incensed by Trump’s rhetoric stormed the Capitol building and tried to halt the peaceful transfer of power."" 

""Not long after that, members of Trump’s rally crowd arrived at the Capitol, where they overwhelmed police, smashed windows, occupied the building and halted the electoral proceedings. Pence was whisked from the Senate chamber to a secure location, where he was held for hours with staff as well as his wife and daughter, who had been there to support him.""

""Trump did not call to check in on his vice president’s safety during the ordeal and instead spent much of Wednesday consumed with anger over Pence’s action, tweeting, “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution.”"

""Later, members of the mob outside the Capitol were captured on video chanting, “Hang Mike Pence!” and members of Trumps base were actively hunting the Vice President.""  https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2021/01/08/hurt-and-anger-cloud-trump-pence-relationship-after-clash/

After all this Tate how can any responsible American not understand why General Milley and many others thought the President was in a unbalanced mental state after he lost the Election and took actions to block his dangerous vindictive behaviour.

Peace my brother. 

1 hour ago, toast said:

Dont forget: in human history, two nuclear attacks were performed and both of them were ordered by a nations leader (Truman). At least two nuclear attack options we know of were prevented by at that time actice military members on duty: Vasili Arkhipov/Cuba 1962 and Stanislaw Petrow/Moscow 1983. Which raises the question: who is/are the better decision maker/s? The guy on the wooden desk or the guys at the trigger? For me, the answer is clear.

 

 

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Manwon Lender
2 hours ago, acidhead said:

Your timeline is off buds.  

Milley's first secret call to China was in October, 2020 according to Woodward. The second call to China was on January 8, 2021. 

""Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley placed two phone calls to his Chinese counterpart in the waning months of Donald Trump’s presidency to secretly reassure Beijing that the United States would not attack the country, a spokesman for Milley confirmed Wednesday.""

""His calls with the Chinese and others in October and January were in keeping with these duties and responsibilities conveying reassurance in order to maintain strategic stability,” said the spokesman, Col. Dave Butler.""

""All of Milley’s calls were coordinated with the rest of the Department of Defense and other relevant agencies, Butler added.""

""He told Pelosi that “there’s not a snowball’s chance in hell this president, or any president can launch nuclear weapons illegally, immorally, unethically without proper certification,” according to the book.""

""After the call, Milley, who “felt no absolute certainty that the military could control or trust Trump,” held a meeting with senior officers of the National Military Command Center to review the procedures for launching nuclear weapons, according to the book""

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/milley-held-secret-calls-with-china-others-as-trump-pushed-election-lies.html

2 hours ago, acidhead said:

Just curious.. why did Miley call China?

Just Curious why you didn't know what happened, but if you need help in the future just ask and I will step up and help you if I am able. 

Take Care

 

 

 

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Raptor Witness
3 hours ago, toast said:

Dont forget: in human history, two nuclear attacks were performed and both of them were ordered by a nations leader (Truman) …

Not exactly true, there was another example, to underline an argument, about who and what, is actually behind nuclear technology.

”Seas would rise when I gave the word,” immediately before the earthquake and tsunami at Fukushima.

When general Miley joined Trump and his brownshirts in Lafayette Square, flashing an upside down Bible, he showed his true colors. This man is no hero, he just got cold feet in his service of the Dark Lord.

Good men rejected the Dark Lord from before, he even appeared on the throne.

Google in quotation marks: "let them find heat miser now crackling under their feet”

 

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lightly
6 hours ago, acidhead said:

Just curious.. why did Miley call China?

?..I don't know about this,,,but,    I've heard that it was Chinese representatives who began that exchange due to concerns over some of Trump's anti China foaming at the mouth.

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WVK
29 minutes ago, lightly said:

?..I don't know about this,,,but,    I've heard that it was Chinese representatives who began that exchange due to concerns over some of Trump's anti China foaming at the mouth.

Speaking of foaming from the mouth, does Miley have similar concerns about Biden? 
https://capi.amac.us/mental-slips-is-biden-fit/

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Autochthon1990
16 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Monitoring is one thing, usurping Presidential power is something else.  If you are the Joint Chief and saw the President was unfit, then resign.  Let the cabinet determine fitness.  Don’t compromise US security because of one’s TDS.  Trump wasn’t going to get us into an unplanned war.  Those that are stable saw that.  However, Bidet will bumble us into an unplanned war and he’ll say that he planned to do that.

 

 

Just having the appearance of doing more (“if necessary”) undermines and usurps the President’s power.  Having this “insurance policy” is troubling as it reveals a deeper coup.

 

 

“Yet”.  Who would have determined what was an illegal order?  Only the President can do that.  If the President wants to go nuclear, there is a process.  He gets his advisers together and he says he wants to launch.  That’s where his advisors chime in and say, no Mr President, that would not be prudent and here is why.  These other options we feel would serve us better.  The quantity and quality of the options provided by the advisors gives the President the ability to do his job.  Why do I feel that the current President’s advisors are not providing advise but guidance?

 

 

Milley just put out a statement that that’s what he did.  This may be an event to sell a book, but he just admitted to high treason.  The JC doesn’t go out on his own to create foreign policy.

 

Jeez, most cultists quit the cult after they try to kill them. I mean he let a pandemic run out of control, tried to get politicians killed, tore apart families for the high crime of being mexican, pardoned a dude who did the same thing, insulted literally everybody EXCEPT White Supremacists, gassed people for a photo op...the hell more do you need, him to actually shoot someone on fifth avenue? He's quite possibly the worst person in this country, and you're STILL running around with your lips glued to his backdoor. 

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