Biden announces joint deal with U.K. and Australia to counter China

[spartan max2]

1 minute ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

France decides to stop Australia / EU trade deal negotiated for the benefit of all 27 member states. 

EU-Australia trade deal runs aground over submarine furor. France says pursuing negotiations is now ‘unthinkable.’

 Clément Beaune, France's European affairs secretary, told POLITICO that Europe could hardly continue talks for a free-trade agreement after such a breach of trust. Brussels has held 11 rounds of talks with Canberra to date, and Australia originally hoped to conclude the accord before the end of the year.

"Keeping one's word is the condition of trust between democracies and between allies," he said. "So it is unthinkable to move forward on trade negotiations as if nothing had happened with a country in which we no longer trust."

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-australia-trade-deal-runs-aground-over-submarine-furor/

 

 

Wow.

France is starting to look really ridiculous here. 

Just shoot all your member states in the foot why don't you.

[L.A.T.1961]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Wow.

France is starting to look really ridiculous here. 

Just shoot all your member states in the foot why don't you.

France's actions are completely over the top, especially from a nation supposed to have a professional diplomatic service. 

France are looking like they have forgotten their long experience on the world stage, some might call it Trumpian behavior. 

Although these irrational actions have been signpost for a while with their brexit response.

Threatening to cut off power to Jersey being one example.

[DarkHunter]

On 9/18/2021 at 5:24 PM, Golden Duck said:

The size of the RAN is relevant.  Looking at the last CEP, the Baracuda was the choice with the largest crew. 

The Virginia and Astute may have 40 per cent more armaments but require more than twice the crew.

The RAN now keeps it submariner numbers classified, after a workforce shortage resulted in subs being withdrawn from service.  The extra armaments are irrelevant if you can't put boats in the water.

The Barricuda, assuming the french nuclear version, has a crew of 60.  The Astute has a crew of between 98 to 109, and the Virginia has a crew of 135.  Given that the Astute and Virginia not only carry more ammunition but also more weapon systems, being able to fire cruise missiles and ballistic missiles does make them far more versatile which makes the extra crew required an acceptable trade off.

Even then the RAN has 13,650 active personnel and 2,925 reserve personnel.  Since 12 Barracuda were planned that would require 720 sailors.  Assuming the same number of nuclear submarines based on either the Astute or Virginia then the required sailors would be between 1,176 and 1,620.  Currently the Collins submarines have a total crew of 348 for all 6.  Given that Australia has 25.36 million people and with a total of approximately 80,000 people in the military I highly doubt adding between 800 and 1,300 sailors will be that big of an issue, pulling from the reserves alone would meet what they need if required.

Also pointing out all of this is just speculation as Australia isnt getting either the Astute or Virginia but technology used in both and whatever Australis develops while being similar to the Astute or Virginia it will ultimately be it's own unique design.

Edited September 21, 2021 by DarkHunter

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

The Barricuda, assuming the french nuclear version, has a crew of 60.  The Astute has a crew of between 98 to 109, and the Virginia has a crew of 135.  Given that the Astute and Virginia not only carry more ammunition but also more weapon systems, being able to fire cruise missiles and ballistic missiles does make them far more versatile which makes the extra crew required an acceptable trade off.

Even then the RAN has 13,650 active personnel and 2,925 reserve personnel.  Since 12 Barracuda were planned that would require 720 sailors.  Assuming the same number of nuclear submarines based on either the Astute or Virginia then the required sailors would be between 1,176 and 1,620.  Currently the Collins submarines have a total crew of 348 for all 6.  Given that Australia has 25.36 million people and with a total of approximately 80,000 people in the military I highly doubt adding between 800 and 1,300 sailors will be that big of an issue, pulling from the reserves alone would meet what they need if required.

Also pointing out all of this is just speculation as Australia isnt getting either the Astute or Virginia but technology used in both and whatever Australis develops while being similar to the Astute or Virginia it will ultimately be it's own unique design.

What is the source for those numbers?

[DarkHunter]

1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

What is the source for those numbers?

The high lighted part is a bit vague it seems.  To specify I was referring to how many people would be needed to crew all six submarines at one time, with 6 submarines and 58 crew a submarine it is 348.

I have a feeling though you are looking more for how many people are serving in the RAN Submarine Service.  After a bit of looking, it is a bit outdated, it seems that currently there are approximately 600 members in the RAN Submarine Service.

"It’s understood Australia’s pool of submariners numbers about 600 people but it would need to expand to around 1,500 for the new fleet."

https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/oct/08/crew-shortage-could-leave-australias-new-submarines-high-and-dry-report

From a bit of quick research it seems that Australia was having issues with meeting personnel requirements for its submarines but most of the problems seem to of been corrected around 2012.  It seems various leadership and cultural issues ingrained in the Submarine Service were the main issues.

[Golden Duck]

26 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

The high lighted part is a bit vague it seems.  To specify I was referring to how many people would be needed to crew all six submarines at one time, with 6 submarines and 58 crew a submarine it is 348.

I have a feeling though you are looking more for how many people are serving in the RAN Submarine Service.  After a bit of looking, it is a bit outdated, it seems that currently there are approximately 600 members in the RAN Submarine Service.

"It’s understood Australia’s pool of submariners numbers about 600 people but it would need to expand to around 1,500 for the new fleet."

https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/oct/08/crew-shortage-could-leave-australias-new-submarines-high-and-dry-report

From a bit of quick research it seems that Australia was having issues with meeting personnel requirements for its submarines but most of the problems seem to of been corrected around 2012.  It seems various leadership and cultural issues ingrained in the Submarine Service were the main issues.

Sorry, I really meant to refer to the currency of the 348 figure.

An estimate of 350 sounds about right.  I was basing that figure on media article reporting RAN submariner crew was at about 70 per cent in the late noughties when HMAS Collins was temporarily removed from service.  There was an article from 2016 that reported the submariner workforce was classified.  Media reports say there is a crew shortage in 2019.  The latest ADF Annual Report states recruitment of submariners remains a challenge.

The procurement of 12 subs for the the ill-fated Attack Class Project seemed optimistic.  But, that is not isn't only criticism of a project the ANAO recommended be cancelled.