Supply chain crisis: Tories poised to U-turn on foreign worker visas

[Duke Wellington]

[NE1]

4 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Thanks for the response Helen.

Hi, steve. I don't miss your copypasta spamming bouts. 

I have already mentioned that I’m not SteveWinn.

It’s not a debate, since there's nothing to debate. Brexit was idiotic in theory and is proving itself as such in practice too.

The decision to leave cannot be classed as idiotic as of yet. We won’t know the true extent for a decade at least. The issues which have arisen such as the pandemic need to be resolved before compiling any data resorting to Brexit.

It's basic human compassion - there are sane people trapped with Brexiters in the UK. 

I sincerely hope that you aren’t referring to people who voted for Brexit as insane.

And it's unbearable to read bizarrely irrational Brexiter spins and not react from time to time, pointing out they're bizarrely irrational. 

So let me repeat that the increasing chaos in supply in the UK is obviously not the consequence of Covid, because whole EU could use more lorry drivers, but there's no shortage of anything anywhere. I'd notice if there was any disruptions. There isn't. What I did notice is that our local lorry drivers are indeed better paid and they've got plenty of work, both at home and in the EU. 

It's Brexit that is emptying your shelves and closing your petrol stations. Noticing that fact is not a political matter, it's a matter of rational thinking. 

From a personal perspective I haven’t seen any empty shelves of commodities from the stores I have visited neither have i had trouble filling up twice this week at the BP garages whom are vehicle fleet is contracted to for diesel. I will say that of the eleven departments we have throughout the country only London has had an issue. As for getting parts from Europe we aren’t having any issues from our suppliers in Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands. 

However the shortages that have been mentioned in the media (Fuel, HGV Drivers, Gas supplies, Food) cannot be solely credited to just Brexit, that is as you put it “spin” from people who wished we remained. 

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/supply-chain/the-real-causes-of-the-hgv-driver-shortage-and-why-we-cant-blame-it-all-on-brexit/659841.article

The article above shows it isn’t just the UK which is having issues  with a shortage of HGV drivers. Poland is short of some 120,000, Germany 60,000, France around 40,000. Brexit cannot be solely blamed as Covid, retirement, incentive/wages has also had an effect, it is shown in the data collected in the article. 

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/worldwide-energy-shortage-shows-up-surging-coal-gas-oil-prices-kemp-2021-09-24/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2021/09/18/global-gas-crisis-energy-price-rises-and-meat-shortages-expected-15278874/amp/

Energy supply issues of natural Gas etc is a global problem and isn’t just subject to the UK alone.

https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/agriculture/brief/food-security-and-covid-19

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/business/supply-chain-shortages.amp.html

Food supply issues have arisen globally due to the pandemic and other factors. Everything from computer chips to construction materials are also hard to get no matter where you are in the world. 

The issues we face in the UK are not down to Brexit. Europe and the wider World is currently in a struggle. You just have to look at the inflation issues in the States, The financial problems in China with Evergrande, $300B in debt potentially causing a wave in the Chinese markets which will only lead to a Global problem as many foreign companies have a vested interest in Evergrande and other aspects of the Chinese economy.

People on here can moan and groan all they like about it and blame everything wrong in the UK on Brexit but when you scratch the surface you see there are multiple factors at play in which Brexit is irrelevant and has had little to no effect in terms of causing us harm.

What Brexit has changed in my country is that the already ridiculously low number of Eurosceptics was further reduced.

Even those pathologically spiteful enough to wish for a hostile Europe in perpetual war are not in a hurry to enjoy the economic disaster that the isolation brings, as it is now evident from the UK example. 

 

It's not just that it's physically impossible to both have and eat your pie, it's also that everyone can see what that pie of yours was made from.  

The UK is far from isolated, we are still big players on the World stage whether people like to admit it or not. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by NE1

[Helen of Annoy]

7 minutes ago, NE1 said:

 

 

Bye, steve. 

[NE1]

3 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Bye, steve. 

Great discussion Helen, thanks for that! 

[toast]

7 hours ago, NE1 said:

I also extend another question to other members on this forum whom are not from the UK, I’m only assuming but I’m going with Helen, Toast, Ozy. My apologies if I have missed anyone.

Why after so many years of the result to leave do you still feel compelled to engage in the debate? Not saying any of you don’t have the right I’m merely interested in why persons from other countries have such a keen interest in what is going on in the UK.

As an European first and secondly as a German I regretted the exit of the UK for various reasons. One of them is that the EU lost an advanced member with very good capacities and skills in R&D, technology, aerospace, biotechnology and others as well. Looking at the development of globalisation over the last 20 years or so we have seen that a competitive alliance is a must to be able to resist the economic dominance of China, and the US as well, in future. The UK might be some kind of independand now, what ever that should mean, but IMHO the price is too high to earn a benefit from, also not on the long run. Funny little trade deals (e.g. lamb meat from NZ) cannot fill the gap that was caused by leaving a tax/duty free market of >500M people. I agree on that the EU is (still) bureaucratic one way or another but there is no reason to leave the party because of lousy music if the ladies are nice.

And dont forget that about 50% of you Britons voted for exit but also about 50% for a stay. Means, 50% of you have been screwed by a political elite which dont care about you UK citizen but follow their feverish dreams of a British Empire 2.0.

Quote

Has the result caused anything to change in your country? 

Not anything that might affect my life except that I dont buy any stuff from the UK anymore if there are european alternatives which a numerous. But the question isnt how the brexit change anything in my country/life but in yours. Some month ago I asked the question here what benefits the brexit gave and the only answer was: a high vaccination rate (which isnt a direct resukt of the brexit anyway). Lame, isnt it?

Edited September 26, 2021 by toast
BongoBongo!

[TrumanB]

I work for a company that provides tech support for one British supply chain (Sainsburys). Didn't there so far to ask them if they have a problem with a deficit of lorry drivers. Wondering what would they tell me. Read some comments that drivers in UK are very underpaid and that it's hard to get papers for foreigners.

Edited September 26, 2021 by TrumanB

[NE1]

4 minutes ago, toast said:

As an European first and secondly as a German I regretted the exit of the UK for various reasons. One of them is that the EU lost an advanced member with very good capacities and skills in R&D, technology, aerospace, biotechnology and others as well. Looking at the development of globalisation over the last 20 years or so we have seen that a competitive alliance is a must to be able to resist the economic dominance of China, and the US as well, in future. The UK might be some kind of independand now, what ever that should mean, but IMHO the price is too high to earn a benefit from, also not on the long run. Funny little trade deals (e.g. lamb meat from NZ) cannot fill the gap that was caused by leaving a tax/duty free market of >500M people. I agree on that the EU is (still) bureaucratic one way or another but there is no reason to leave the party because of lousy music if the ladies are nice.

And dont forget that about 50% of you Britons voted for exit but also about 50% for a stay. Means, 50% of you have been screwed by a political elite which dont care about you UK citizen but follow their feverish dreams of an British Empire 2.0.

Not anything that might affect my life except that I dont buy any stuff from the UK anymore if there are european alternatives which a numerous. But the question isnt how the brexit change anything in my country/life but in yours. Some month ago I asked the question here what benefits the brexit gave and the only answer was: a high vaccination rate (which isnt a direct resukt of the brexit anyway). Lame, isnt it?

Valid points and insightful, i appreciate the response. 

The issue with the close result is a gripe that I can understand. Having voted remain myself it did hang on my shoulders for awhile but i accept the result as leave did receive the most votes. I felt it was better to make the most of it rather then dwell on it. 

I would like to think that the UK and the likes of Germany, France and the rest of Europe can still be close partners, the people’s of Europe are a good bunch and I think the majority of the leave voters value and respect them too despite what you might be told by certain people that they are all racist and xenophobic toward you. The fact we are no longer in the club doesn’t necessarily mean we can no longer have close ties. Middle ground just has to be found that benefits both parties.

With regards to benefits and negatives it’s something that can’t be answered in my opinion at this moment in time. It’s far to early in the split and is something that will no doubt be discussed many years from now when we all have a better understanding of the effects.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Unfortunately the Brexit result made you at least partly the enemy of Europe, it was well understood in the halls of power that the UK would try to undercut the high standards insisted on by the EU, and at least partly try to maintain the financial practices which were the main bone of contention that triggered the Brexit referendum in the first place. The behaviour of the UK government since the referendum would lead the European member states to not trust that the UK will follow the rule of law and apply the agreements it has signed up to.

It will take a long time and a considerable effort for the EU to consider the UK its friend in the future, and there is literally no sign that the UK has accepted that. So enemies they will be and tit for tat bickering are likely to be the future until the UK realizes what the EU expects from its trading partners and its member states.

I suspect that this will also apply to relations with the USA after Brexit, and its not as if the US administration didn't flag this fact up well in advance. Reputations are easily damaged and hard to repair.

 

Br Cornelius

Edited September 26, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[Silver]

1 hour ago, NE1 said:

 

From a personal perspective I haven’t seen any empty shelves of commodities from the stores I have visited neither have i had trouble filling up twice this week at the BP garages whom are vehicle fleet is contracted to for diesel. I will say that of the eleven departments we have throughout the country only London has had an issue. As for getting parts from Europe we aren’t having any issues from our suppliers in Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands. 

Please tell me you are joking! All these issues are being broadcast in every news! Some news channels are repeating them every hour they have a news bulletin! You are in the UK, right?

What game are you playing talking such nonsense?

 

[LV-426]

11 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

Unfortunately the Brexit result made you at least partly the enemy of Europe, it was well understood in the halls of power that the UK would try to undercut the high standards insisted on by the EU, and at least partly try to maintain the financial practices which were the main bone of contention that triggered the Brexit referendum in the first place. The behaviour of the UK government since the referendum would lead the European member states to not trust that the UK will follow the rule of law and apply the agreements it has signed up to.

It will take a long time and a considerable effort for the EU to consider the UK its friend in the future, and there is literally no sign that the UK has accepted that. So enemies they will be and tit for tat bickering are likely to be the future until the UK realizes what the EU expects from its trading partners and its member states.

I suspect that this will also apply to relations with the USA after Brexit, and its not as if the US administration didn't flag this fact up well in advance. Reputations are easily damaged and hard to repair.

 

Br Cornelius

 

Enemy of Europe? Get a ****ing grip on yourself!

The only people here talking enmity are fanatical zealots such as youself!

And for the upteenth time - do you need a cartoon drawing with a crayon? - the EU is not Europe, as much as it would love to view itself as such.

 

Do you view Norway and Switzerland as enemies of "Europe"?

If another nation, such as the Netherlands left the EU, would you consider them an enemy of "Europe"?

No, of course you wouldn't, as other nations don't fit your narrow fanatical view.

 

You're starting to remind me of a line from the movie, Terminator

"Listen and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear, and it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Until you are dead."

 

[Silver]

1 hour ago, NE1 said:

People on here can moan and groan all they like about it and blame everything wrong in the UK on Brexit but when you scratch the surface you see there are multiple factors at play in which Brexit is irrelevant and has had little to no effect in terms of causing us harm.

The UK is far from isolated, we are still big players on the World stage whether people like to admit it or not. 

 

You are either seriously deluded or you don't keep up with news and current affairs.

[Silver]

FAI @NE1

Britain runs dry: Up to 90 per cent of forecourts are out of fuel and the rest are running out quickly as ambulance crashes into car waiting to fill up and Grant Shapps says haulier shortage could take YEARS to fix

An ambulance with a siren blaring was unable to pass gridlocked traffic queuing near a Bromley petrol station 

A witness said the ambulance ended up hitting a stationary car in a bid to rush to the emergency

Police have also bypassed queues to fill up their cars as petrol stations continue to run out of fuel amid crisis 

Chairman of the Petrol Retailers Association said panic buying had caused 'serious problems' for stock levels

And oil giant BP said nearly a third of their petrol stations in Britain had run out of fuel

UK Home | Daily Mail Online

Edited September 26, 2021 by The Silver Shroud

[NE1]

56 minutes ago, The Silver Shroud said:

Please tell me you are joking! All these issues are being broadcast in every news! Some news channels are repeating them every hour they have a news bulletin! You are in the UK, right?

What game are you playing talking such nonsense?

 

Nah why would I joke or lie. I haven’t had a single problem getting anything I need this week, fuel or food. If there is panic buying it’s obviously gonna cause a shortage, it’s the media’s doing which is fuelling it. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/25/panic-buying-rather-than-shortages-causing-queues-at-uk-petrol-stations-aa-head-says

Check the Guardian, I know it’s a rag you normally like to tout. “Panic buying rather than shortages”. AA head says.

[NE1]

1 hour ago, The Silver Shroud said:

You are either seriously deluded or you don't keep up with news and current affairs.

I pasted a load of articles explaining that shortages are present in most developed countries but in my day to day life I haven’t been subject to such scenarios. I would say I’m fully abreast of what’s going on in the World by those said articles.

If you don’t think the UK is still a leading player in the World or that Brexit hasn’t caused harm then that’s fine I’m not bothered either way but pack it in with the deluded remarks, same with Helen calling out over 15 million voters insane. It pointless, just gets people’s back up and doesn’t help the debate.

 

 

[L.A.T.1961]

Drivers who hold an HGV licence are being encouraged by the government to get back behind the wheel of lorries to solve the current shortage crisis with nearly one million letters being sent out.

Package of measures includes using MOD examiners to help increase immediate HGV testing capacity by thousands over the next 12 weeks.

The letter, which will arrive on doormats over the coming days, sets out the steps the road haulage sector is taking to improve the industry, including increased wages, flexible working and fixed hours.

An additional 1,000 people are expected to be trained through courses accessed locally and funded by the government’s adult education budget.

As fuel tanker drivers need additional safety qualifications, the government is to look at how they can get their licences as soon as possible, said the DfT.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/letters-sent-million-hgv-driving-25074103

 

[odas]

17 hours ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Out. We want out. We dislike the European exclusive policies and opted for an inclusive policy where the whole world can join in, Europe too if they want.

Thank you, at least you know what you want. Now, please shut the Door and let the rest of us go on with our lives.

[Silver]

6 hours ago, NE1 said:

I pasted a load of articles explaining that shortages are present in most developed countries but in my day to day life I haven’t been subject to such scenarios. I would say I’m fully abreast of what’s going on in the World by those said articles.

If you don’t think the UK is still a leading player in the World or that Brexit hasn’t caused harm then that’s fine I’m not bothered either way but pack it in with the deluded remarks, same with Helen calling out over 15 million voters insane. It pointless, just gets people’s back up and doesn’t help the debate.

 

 

Then don't say silly things. And saying you don't believe there is a petrol crisis because you personally have been able to fill your car without problems, or that shelves are not empty because you personally have not noticed, or that the UK is no worse off than any other European country because of driver shortages when the solution is to recruit drivers from those very countries,  is being very silly.

Edited September 27, 2021 by The Silver Shroud

[Silver]

                 EU has Pop Corn Shortage

EU running short of pop corn as 400 million people sit back to watch the British Brexit Show

[NE1]

2 hours ago, The Silver Shroud said:

Then don't say silly things. And saying you don't believe there is a petrol crisis because you personally have been able to fill your car without problems, or that shelves are not empty because you personally have not noticed, or that the UK is no worse off than any other European country because of driver shortages when the solution is to recruit drivers from those very countries,  is being very silly.

Me saying I didn’t have trouble filling up or getting food does not equate to me not believing there is a shortage Ted. As shown in many of my posts with attached articles it proves there is a shortage of many things not just here but Europe and the World.

I have merely pointed out these articles attaining to the shortages have convinced me that Brexit isn’t the issue but a wider problem.

Shortages in UK lorry drivers as shown in the article I posted above were down well before brexit was even conceived and trying to get drivers to come from the EU when they themselves are having a driver shortage is a tough one. 

I shall leave it at that.

Edited September 27, 2021 by NE1

[Essan]

11 hours ago, The Silver Shroud said:

FAI @NE1

Britain runs dry: Up to 90 per cent of forecourts are out of fuel and the rest are running out quickly as ambulance crashes into car waiting to fill up and Grant Shapps says haulier shortage could take YEARS to fix

An ambulance with a siren blaring was unable to pass gridlocked traffic queuing near a Bromley petrol station 

A witness said the ambulance ended up hitting a stationary car in a bid to rush to the emergency

Police have also bypassed queues to fill up their cars as petrol stations continue to run out of fuel amid crisis 

Chairman of the Petrol Retailers Association said panic buying had caused 'serious problems' for stock levels

And oil giant BP said nearly a third of their petrol stations in Britain had run out of fuel

UK Home | Daily Mail Online

 Remember, Tomorrow never lies .....

Clearly the media want this to go on a few more days yet!

[OpenMindedSceptic]

9 hours ago, odas said:

Thank you, at least you know what you want. Now, please shut the Door and let the rest of us go on with our lives.

I am going about my life. Not dwelling in the recent past and staring from the cliffs of Dover at the sad remoaners wet dream of being ruled by Brussels.

[toast]

3 hours ago, NE1 said:

Shortages in UK lorry drivers as shown in the article I posted above were down well before brexit was even conceived and trying to get drivers to come from the EU when they themselves are having a driver shortage is a tough one.

Thats correct but dont you think that the management of your country failed because it seems they did not had the additional driver shortage on their radar during 5 years time? Hell, thats project management for beginners.

Or failed the idea to get unemployed UK drivers into jobs, filling the gabs caused by the EU driver ban?

Edited September 27, 2021 by toast

[RAyMO]

Brexit may not have caused the problem of shortage of drivers but it certainly made it worse how many thousand left the UK after Brexit? The RHA claims around 20,000 European drivers have left the UK for "Brexit reasons". Supply crisis: Why is there an HGV driver shortage and how bad could the problem get? | UK News | Sky News

Govt to offer EU drivers to come back in - how many will bother after having effectively been turfed out, and then begrudgingly invited back on short term contracts. Relatively few

what about all those farm labour jobs - thought the UK population was going to jump to fill those too,   Turkey farmers blame Brexit for labour shortage that would ruin Christmas - CityAM : CityAM, or the shortages in care staff. Social care for the elderly and vulnerable is facing an "unprecedented crisis" due to a lack of available staff, Social care facing 'unprecedented crisis' over staff shortages, say officials | UK News | Sky News

Not to mention the hospitality sector.

Covid provided a cover for the mess of brexit, as that cover is removed the mess is clear for all to see. Yes problems may be worldwide in some instances, but made worse  in the UK by Brexit.  

so what does the UK govt do:

Make HGV driving tests easier - no foreseeable problems there;

Issue temporary visas for  in demand workers to EU workers, they're sure to rush to help us after we turfed them out;

Ask Brazil for a little emergency food aid while we are at it;

Help the DUP brexiteers by ripping up the WA we signed - sure to encourage the USA to sign an agreement with us - why bother when what we sign is not worth the paper its written on;

Not implement border customs controls - after all we need to keep the food coming in from Europe - but sshhh no one will notice;

twiiddle thumbs while shipping container companies prefer to deliver to  Rotterdam and charge premiums when required to deliver to the UK.

........

5 years to plan and still a complete farce and misdirection by a totally incompetent government, they even claim things like the problems existed before Brexit. To an extent that is true, many of the problems were only exacerbated by Brexit, but they, the Tory government were in power during all those years when the problems existed and were not addressed. They were in power in 2017 knowing Brexit was coming when they decided the UK didn't need to store Gas. 

when will the English - because it is only the English, realise what a shower of incompetents the Tories are. 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by RAyMO

[Silver]

Initial response is that EU drivers will not respond, so arguing about the rights and wrongs of allowing foreign workers into the UK is a bit moot.

It's a bit of a cheek really- our government has been saying for years that 'they need us more than we need them', haven't the EU drivers been listening?

'EU truckers will NOT help Britain out of the s**t they created themselves': union chief dashes hope | Daily Mail Online

 

 

[itsnotoutthere]