Supply chain crisis: Tories poised to U-turn on foreign worker visas

[Guest Br Cornelius]

11 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

 

Seriously, how many times do the FACTS need to be presented?

 

Europe’s road freight market short of more than 400,000 drivers

 

Poland are top of the list. France and Germany are up there with the UK. In fact their figures have been positively skewed with the drivers heading home from Britain.

As @and then pointed out above, it's also affecting other parts of the world for the same reasons... C.O.V.I.D.

... but it isn't effecting those countries to the same degree as the UK. So how many times do you have to be told.

Take for example here in Ireland, there have been supply issues, especially in building materials. Also there are some things missing from supermarkets - but those are mainly restricted to things that used to come from the UK and supermarkets are now looking for alternative suppliers.

Br Cornelius

Edited September 25, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[toast]

51 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

Seriously, how many times do the FACTS need to be presented? (...)

Poland are top of the list. France and Germany are up there with the UK.

Fact is that Germany has no disrupted supply chains caused by driver shortage. I know from first hand. I live there.

[Silver]

 

[Silver]

1 hour ago, LV-426 said:

 

Seriously, how many times do the FACTS need to be presented?

 

Europe’s road freight market short of more than 400,000 drivers

 

Poland are top of the list. France and Germany are up there with the UK. In fact their figures have been positively skewed with the drivers heading home from Britain.

As @and then pointed out above, it's also affecting other parts of the world for the same reasons... C.O.V.I.D.

You have missed the FACTS in your own article:

"The most heavily impacted European countries are Poland, the UK and Germany. The UK is in a particularly difficult position as it is not only grappling with Brexit, but it also saw many European workers leave over the course of the pandemic, as fears over lockdowns grew."

Also, this is of interest:

"I expect many drivers will not return to the UK even if the UK Government allows them to,” said Marco Digioia, the general secretary of UETR, which represents more than 70 per cent of trucking companies across the EU.

“While offering visas to drivers on the continent would be a welcome step, there are many other issues, such as working conditions, pay, and the costs of getting into and working in the UK.”

While Transport Secretary Grant Shapps claimed Brexit was not behind the driver shortage, representatives right across the industry disagree.

HGV shortage: EU drivers set to snub Boris Johnson's appeal to solve UK petrol crisis with Brexit visa offer (inews.co.uk)

We all know there has been a pandemic. Everyone is in the same boat as far as opening up is concerend.

But only the UK has deliberately made its problems worse.

Brexiters can't keep blaming Covid. One day the Covid effect on industry will hopefully disappear, and then who will be blamed? The EU, I expect. But never Brexit. I really can't understand what is so wonderful about Brexit that its adherents will allow transport chaos, crops rotting, trade agreements destroyed, all so they can claim they are "sovereign" (which we were anyway).

Edited September 25, 2021 by The Silver Shroud

[Cookie Monster]

1 hour ago, toast said:

Fact is that Germany has no disrupted supply chains caused by driver shortage. I know from first hand. I live there.

Tell the map that.

[LV-426]

6 minutes ago, The Silver Shroud said:

You have missed the FACTS in your own article:The most heavily impacted European countries are Poland, the UK and Germany. The UK is in a particularly difficult position as it is not only grappling with Brexit, but it also saw many European workers leave over the course of the pandemic, as fears over lockdowns grew.

Also, this is of interest:

HGV shortage: EU drivers set to snub Boris Johnson's appeal to solve UK petrol crisis with Brexit visa offer (inews.co.uk)

 

Have I at any single point in this discussion stated that Brexit wasn't a factor?

I even specifically stated a couple of days ago that "of course Brexit has had an impact. It's been a seizmic political change."

 

 

I'm heading in the same direction as @Grey Area.

It doesn't matter what the topic is, this constant whinging and whining about Brexit is an utter yawnfest.

 

Here's something to consider though...

I see a lot of complaints about Johnson tied in with Brexit tears. Who do you think put him in power?

Do you think he'd be in power if Remoaners had accepted the referendum result, and worked together to get the best deal we could, instead of ripping the country apart with childish petulance.

Don't you perhaps think that the continuation of this petulance will only see his position reinforced for years to come, regardless of mistakes he makes.

 

Something to consider as your relentless war on Brexit continues.

[Cookie Monster]

1 hour ago, LV-426 said:

 

Have I at any single point in this discussion stated that Brexit wasn't a factor?

I even specifically stated a couple of days ago that "of course Brexit has had an impact. It's been a seizmic political change."

 

 

I'm heading in the same direction as @Grey Area.

It doesn't matter what the topic is, this constant whinging and whining about Brexit is an utter yawnfest.

 

Here's something to consider though...

I see a lot of complaints about Johnson tied in with Brexit tears. Who do you think put him in power?

Do you think he'd be in power if Remoaners had accepted the referendum result, and worked together to get the best deal we could, instead of ripping the country apart with childish petulance.

Don't you perhaps think that the continuation of this petulance will only see his position reinforced for years to come, regardless of mistakes he makes.

 

Something to consider as your relentless war on Brexit continues.

I think we have some far lefties here who are pro-EU.

One thing to note is most of them aren`t even British and don`t even live here. But they are so driven to shoot down Boris and Brexit at any cost that its just bizarre. Its odd why they get so worked up over it. If they like the EU fine, but why do they feel so strongly about projecting it onto us?

The majority of the British people put Boris in charge, in fact it was a landslide win in the election. Not everyone likes him, not everyone is for Brexit, and my own people have a right to their particular views. But most Brits dont get worked up as much as the far lefties here.

And the negative spin where everything is the fault of Brexit, and an impending collapse is going to happen because of it, while denying all evidence to the contrary, is very strange. Do they themselves even know why they are behaving the way that they do? Its not based on logic, or reasoning with facts in front of them, its a wholly negative campaign which I think is based on fear and hysteria, against an independent Britain.

[Silver]

3 hours ago, LV-426 said:

 

Have I at any single point in this discussion stated that Brexit wasn't a factor?

I even specifically stated a couple of days ago that "of course Brexit has had an impact. It's been a seizmic political change."

 

 

I'm heading in the same direction as @Grey Area.

It doesn't matter what the topic is, this constant whinging and whining about Brexit is an utter yawnfest.

 

Here's something to consider though...

I see a lot of complaints about Johnson tied in with Brexit tears. Who do you think put him in power?

Do you think he'd be in power if Remoaners had accepted the referendum result, and worked together to get the best deal we could, instead of ripping the country apart with childish petulance.

Don't you perhaps think that the continuation of this petulance will only see his position reinforced for years to come, regardless of mistakes he makes.

 

Something to consider as your relentless war on Brexit continues.

Worked together? To destroy the best deal we already had, the best arrangement any country had in the EU (we kept our own currency, had opted out of Schengen so we had control of our borders), just so Cameron could finally defeat the eurosceptics in his own party? And instead set the UK on a path to humiliation and isolation?

No. Can't "get behind" something so obviously stupid and self-destructive.

If someone had told me in 2015 that in 2021 we would be seeing food and fuel shortages because a Conservative government would deliberately diminish the country, I'd have told them they were mad. But here we are, in an Alice in Wonderland world, where fixing the errors of Brexit is being described as an advantage- now we have left, we can issue temporary visas- which we wouldn't have needed to do if we hadn't left.

Because we are sovereign,we can 'choose' not to check our borders for imports. The list will go on..

Edited September 26, 2021 by The Silver Shroud

[LV-426]

1 minute ago, The Silver Shroud said:

Worked together? To destroy the best deal we already had, the best arrangement any country had in the EU (we kept our own currency, had opted out of Schengen so we had control of our borders), just so Cameron could finally defeat the eurosceptics in his own party? And instead set the UK on a path to humiliation and isolation?

No. Can't !get behind" something so obvioulsy stupid and self-destructive.

 

Also known as democracy

You didn't have to like the result, just accept it and participate in getting the best deal we could after the population had made its decision.

Instead, you and your undemocratic cohorts did everything you could to weaken our bargaining position.

 

Brexit is on myself and fellow Leavers, and we were always prepared for ups and downs.

The deal we got, the government we have and any associated instability is on Remoaners - and I do mean "Remoaners." Many who voted Remain took the high road, accepted democracy and moved forward.

[Silver]

As unpalatable as it might be, no modern capitalist country can grow, or even stagnate, without a workforce. In the UK we have an aging population and a compartively low birth rate. We need immigrants to do the jobs we can't do, not neccessarily because we don't want to, but because we haven't the manpower.

Europe was ideal- geographically close so we could take advantage of migrant labour (and I don't mean economic advantage, we have a law on minimum wage which was higher than they would get elsewhere and it suited them as they returned year after year) and it was also our own continent.

The issuing of 10, 500 visas to try to attract them back is the biggest U-turn Johnson has made to date, and the first of probably many before Brexit is dead (what was the Times article I posted  a week ago: 'the best thing the Tories can do for the UK is not to take back control'? If Johnson hadn't 'taken back control of the borders' we would not have a suppply issue, we would have huge unfinished lorry parks in Kent and we would not have spent billions on infrastructure that we have not been able to use as we don't have any border staff (50,000 customs agents needed alone, none of whom have been recruited). 

It will hardly make a dent in the 100,000 trucker vacancies, 60,000 care vacancies, 90,000 agriculture vacancies, and thousands of other vacancies.

10,500 foreign visas get Government green light as panic grows of Christmas supply chain crisis | Daily Mail Online

Edited September 26, 2021 by The Silver Shroud

[odas]

Just wondering about the prospective foreign Truck Drivers. In the past there have been many negative posts from brits about them, mainly how they took away jobs from british drivers. Now you are begging them to come back...and in couple of years you will complain about them again. Can you please make up your mind? Do you actually know what you want? In or out? Here or there? Inclusive or exclusive? Wall or no Wall? Don't really care, just stop acting like babies and make up your mind finally.

[Silver]

I can understand why Brexiters aren't too dismayed over the last nine months. So far things are shaping up nicely:

We can have a good old-fashioned 1950s Christmas- no central heating (too expensive) so we will all 'wear another layer' like we all used to, old-fashioned home-made crepe paper decorations instead of those tawdry tinsel ones (still stuck in a port somewhere, no staff to deal with them) ,no turkey (our farms have gone bankrupt) so we will have a 'nice bit of meat' from the butchers with plenty of 'good fat'  (mum always said if you've got good fat, you've got good meat, even if youre not sure what animal it came from), and home-made toys (no money) instead of those 'new-fangled' plastic things from China (who would ever buy anything from China, hey?). 

At 3pm we'll all sit round the TV to watch Nigel Farage give his Christmas Day speech live from the GB News studio (we do hope it will become a Christmas tradition, only next time we hope the studio lights work so we can see him as well as hear him!)

On Boxing Day dad can walk to work (no petrol anymore) and when he comes home we can congratulate ourselves on what we have achieved.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by The Silver Shroud

[OpenMindedSceptic]

17 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

Lets not forget that the EU countries have the benefit of Free Movement for Work - which is far more appealing to migrant truck drivers than applying to Government for Visas. Unless something spectacular happens the UK will be bottom of their list when it comes to looking for new migrant truck drivers.

Who would have guessed that Free Movement for Work was economically beneficial, Oh sorry I did.

These threads are starting to elicit the the kneejerk response of "You ****ing ****wits".

Br Cornelius

I'll have a HGV driver with free movement and a visa. You can keep the ones restricted to just the freedom of movement area. 

BTW, Germany, growing slower than the UK. The AUKUS deal.is a big deal too, which is why Macron is throwing his toys out of the pram. It is a cornerstone to global economy that shows France cannot compete in a major area. A great analogy for mainland Europe.

UK has bounced back faster than predicted and faster than the free movement trade area. 

Family in Netherlands and friends in Belgium all telling me that they want out if the beloved EU circus. 

I was remain. After seeing the behaviour of the European Parliament, the dodgy European negotiators and the headlines from mainland Europe trying to say the UK are finished when they go ahead and close something like 60+ trade deals and a huge project off France, I am glad we left. 

[OpenMindedSceptic]

On the whole, most remainers (who lost a Democratic referendum by the way, they keep forgetting) are pretty sad. I think they use any MSM headline to weep and cry out loud that they want a return to red tape, in fighting and slow decision making that benefits the few. 

BTW, Merkel has left the building, there's noone left to keep the sticky tape on the European dream.

[OpenMindedSceptic]

44 minutes ago, odas said:

Just wondering about the prospective foreign Truck Drivers. In the past there have been many negative posts from brits about them, mainly how they took away jobs from british drivers. Now you are begging them to come back...and in couple of years you will complain about them again. Can you please make up your mind? Do you actually know what you want? In or out? Here or there? Inclusive or exclusive? Wall or no Wall? Don't really care, just stop acting like babies and make up your mind finally.

Out. We want out. We dislike the European exclusive policies and opted for an inclusive policy where the whole world can join in, Europe too if they want.

[Cookie Monster]

3 hours ago, The Silver Shroud said:

Worked together? To destroy the best deal we already had, the best arrangement any country had in the EU (we kept our own currency, had opted out of Schengen so we had control of our borders), just so Cameron could finally defeat the eurosceptics in his own party? And instead set the UK on a path to humiliation and isolation?

No. Can't "get behind" something so obviously stupid and self-destructive.

If someone had told me in 2015 that in 2021 we would be seeing food and fuel shortages because a Conservative government would deliberately diminish the country, I'd have told them they were mad. But here we are, in an Alice in Wonderland world, where fixing the errors of Brexit is being described as an advantage- now we have left, we can issue temporary visas- which we wouldn't have needed to do if we hadn't left.

Because we are sovereign,we can 'choose' not to check our borders for imports. The list will go on..

Cameron gave the EU a chance to reform, it didn`t so we voted to leave.

And there you go again. Distorting a global and EU lorry driver shortage as being caused by Brexit. Did China Brexit? Did Poland Brexit? Did Germany Brexit? Did Mexico Brexit?

[Silver]

2 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

Cameron gave the EU a chance to reform, it didn`t so we voted to leave.

And there you go again. Distorting a global and EU lorry driver shortage as being caused by Brexit. Did China Brexit? Did Poland Brexit? Did Germany Brexit? Did Mexico Brexit?

The UK must have Long Covid then. Supermarket bosses are preparing for empty shelves for months. The good news is they are saying it will be like the 1950s:

Supermarkets are preparing for months of shortages that will leave gaps on shelves for everything from crisps and meat to toilet paper and flour.

Supply problems are expected to cause a noticeable drop in choice, casting Britain back to an era 50 years ago when most shoppers were offered just basic ingredients and a wider choice of food and household products was limited.

Experts warn there will be much less choice in supermarkets | Daily Mail Online

Edited September 26, 2021 by The Silver Shroud

[Helen of Annoy]

2 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

 

And there you go again. Distorting a global and EU lorry driver shortage as being caused by Brexit. Did China Brexit? Did Poland Brexit? Did Germany Brexit? Did Mexico Brexit?

 

No EU country had their supply chain disrupted. There is need for more lorry drivers, but it's only the UK that can't get goods to customers. 

[toast]

54 minutes ago, The Silver Shroud said:

Supply problems are expected to cause a noticeable drop in choice, casting Britain back to an era 50 years ago when most shoppers were offered just basic ingredients and a wider choice of food and household products was limited.

And here we have the one and only benefit of the Brexit: a decrease in the average BMI of the citizens of the United Kingdom within the next few years, making the UK once again a leading role model to the whole world.

[Ozymandias]

16 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

 

No EU country had their supply chain disrupted. There is need for more lorry drivers, but it's only the UK that can't get goods to customers. 

Helen, there is no point throwing FACTS at Brexit fantasists. You waste your time and mental effort. They are emotionally driven, blind to logic and incapable of critical analysis. It is like arguing with teenagers whose brains are not fully developed or, as my grandfather used say, trying to mind mice at a crossroads. 

Let time do its work.

[NE1]

15 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

Yes it made me change my citizenship and driving license and I know of lots of people who can state the same, including two of my brothers who live in England.
I also stopped buying things from the UK, along with just about everyone I know.

 

Br Cornelius

Thanks for the reply Br, I’m just trying to get a grasp on why a few people on here are so against Brexit.

If you don’t mind me going further with the questions and feel free to disregard any of them if you feel it too personal. What are the reasons for not purchasing goods from the UK? Is it financial, if so then why? Has it become too expensive or major delays in goods getting to you? Is it out of principle you stopped buying goods because you didn’t agree with the Brexit decision so you just made a choice to no longer purchase goods from the UK? 

Same question with regards to the citizenship and driving license, do you feel your opportunities where limited and if so why? You say you have changed citizenship, if your from the ROI why not dual citizenship? Why completely disregard the UK? 

I also extend another question to other members on this forum whom are not from the UK, I’m only assuming but I’m going with Helen, Toast, Ozy. My apologies if I have missed anyone.

Why after so many years of the result to leave do you still feel compelled to engage in the debate? Not saying any of you don’t have the right I’m merely interested in why persons from other countries have such a keen interest in what is going on in the UK. 

Has the result caused anything to change in your country? 

Appreciate any responses. I’m not here to get into any arguments or exchange in a petty squabble I just want a general debate and get to know why those of you who wanted the UK to remain in the EU, whether you are actually from here or abroad still have such a staunch rhetoric regarding the decision and why you can’t accept that it has happened and move on? 

There has been too many digs from many on this thread and previous threads (from both sides) which only snowballs to the point where many have stopped engaging and from what I can tell many have left the site entirely because of it so I hope we change the pace and actually have a proper discussion.  

 

[Silver]

3 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

 

No EU country had their supply chain disrupted. There is need for more lorry drivers, but it's only the UK that can't get goods to customers. 

The EU drivers aren't coming back. They used to arrive with a load from Europe, drop it off, pick up another and deliver that within the UK, then take a load back to Europe. Now our exports to and from the EU have been decimated, especially on the way back to the EU from the UK, so it simply isn't profitable for them anymore, quite aside from the reams of complex paperwork involved, along with the fact that the Hostile Environment was specifically designed to make them feel unwelcome. The UK is a service-based economy based on just-in-time deliveries across fluid borders: Brexit destroyed that, and this driver shortage was not only inevitable, but is just the start of crippling supply-chain issues across the entirety of our economy.

[Silver]

The RHA has described the governement as "disgraceful" for trying to blame them for the fuel crisis.

Anyone else notice that with this government it is always someone else's fault when things go wrong? Usually the public, because we "haven't acted responsibly", or industry, because they want to "sell things". 

I suppose they have a point- you can't have nice things if you also want to shut yourself off from the world.

Fuel crisis: RHA says government ‘disgraceful’ after Grant Shapps blames industry leaders for petrol panic | The Independent

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, NE1 said:

 

I also extend another question to other members on this forum whom are not from the UK, I’m only assuming but I’m going with Helen, Toast, Ozy. My apologies if I have missed anyone.

Why after so many years of the result to leave do you still feel compelled to engage in the debate? Not saying any of you don’t have the right I’m merely interested in why persons from other countries have such a keen interest in what is going on in the UK. 

Has the result caused anything to change in your country? 

 

Hi, steve. I don't miss your copypasta spamming bouts. 

 

It's not a debate, since there's nothing to debate. Brexit was idiotic in theory and is proving itself as such in practice too.

It's basic human compassion - there are sane people trapped with Brexiters in the UK. 

And it's unbearable to read bizarrely irrational Brexiter spins and not react from time to time, pointing out they're bizarrely irrational. 

 

So let me repeat that the increasing chaos in supply in the UK is obviously not the consequence of Covid, because whole EU could use more lorry drivers, but there's no shortage of anything anywhere. I'd notice if there was any disruptions. There isn't. What I did notice is that our local lorry drivers are indeed better paid and they've got plenty of work, both at home and in the EU. 

It's Brexit that is emptying your shelves and closing your petrol stations. Noticing that fact is not a political matter, it's a matter of rational thinking. 

 

What Brexit has changed in my country is that the already ridiculously low number of Eurosceptics was further reduced.

Even those pathologically spiteful enough to wish for a hostile Europe in perpetual war are not in a hurry to enjoy the economic disaster that the isolation brings, as it is now evident from the UK example. 

 

It's not just that it's physically impossible to both have and eat your pie, it's also that everyone can see what that pie of yours was made from.  

[Silver]