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Manwon Lender

A Lutheran Response to Christian Zionism

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Manwon Lender

The newest organization seeking to channel all of this religiously inspired political energy is Christians United for Israel (CUFI). CUFI is led by John Hagee, pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Tex. Calling support for Israel “God’s foreign policy” can sound quaint. Doing so while holding conferences addressed by sitting United States congresspersons (including Joseph Liberman, Rick Santorum, and Sam Brownback), addressed by former Israeli Prime Ministers like Shimon Peres and Benjamin Netanyahu and featuring a “Middle East Briefing” presented by former CIA director James Woolsey and former Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Moshe Ya’alon indicates a movement that portends far-reaching consequences for global well-being. 

Christian Zionism is a politically mobilized strand of Christian fundamentalism committed to preserving Jewish control over all of historic Palestine to ensure the realization of the movement’s own end-times hope. Both a political theology and a philosophy of history, Christian Zionism builds on the futurist system of biblical prophecy interpretation known as “premillenial dispensationalism,” a system popularly expressed as “Armageddon theology” or “rapture theology.” Christian Zionism places the State of Israel (and, often, the United States) at the center of God’s purposes for “the end of the age.” The label “Christian Zionism” refers to something quite distinct from well-intentioned Christian efforts to support Jewish well-being;12 the movement is more than general Christian support for Jewish Zionism or the State of Israel.

http://www.elcjhl.org/palestine/Zionism/08maysmith.pdf

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The_Phantom_Stranger

A lot of the Bible is focused on Israel, and blessing Israel. It is an American ally. There might be some extremist groups, but they really show. Most right wing churches did the right thing like they were supposed to do during the current presidency and told their congregation to accept the president like a good Christian and settle down until it is their turn again. The trouble between Israel and Palestine is rather confusing. There really is no Palestine as an actual country. It's an undefined thing. We want Israel to stay its country, but we want everyone to stay alive. About 50% of the whole of Palestinians live in this area and we would like to prevent senseless killing. To prevent a genocide on either side it might require American intervention and much thought about how to keep the peace.

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XenoFish

In roughly 50 years no one will care about the middle east as oil will most likely run dry. 

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Autochthon1990

Nice try Lutherans, we haven't forgotten how your founder reacted when we told him 'no thanks' to your tract. Conservatives, this **** is why we don't vote republican...well that and the nazi thing, it's because you don't care about US or our rights, you just want us to move onto the right spot of the board so your carpenter god can haul back to earth. 

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DieChecker

IMHO the Israel is just a sign of the End Times, but then so are plagues and wars. And historically plagues and wars have come and gone with no Rapture, so... Israel... 

Sorry, but not required. 

Just my opinion as an Evangelical Christian. 

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Abramelin

"My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

J.

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Manwon Lender
2 minutes ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Nice try Lutherans, we haven't forgotten how your founder reacted when we told him 'no thanks' to your tract. Conservatives, this **** is why we don't vote republican...well that and the nazi thing, it's because you don't care about US or our rights, you just want us to move onto the right spot of the board so your carpenter god can haul back to earth. 

This really has nothing to with politics, it's about how Christian Fundamentalists ( Christian Zionists ) are trying to domination other Christian groups like the Lutherans. In the link it brings up a gentleman whose name is Pastor John Hagee who is the head of a Church called Christians United for Israel (CUFI). This Church is the largest Evangelical Christian Zionist Church in the world and it located in Texas.

That gentleman is a bit of a hypocrite, on one hand he calls his organization Christians United for Israel (CUFI) and then he gives a sermon saying that Hitler was sent by God to punish the European Jews for not returning to Israel. In addition the Christian Zionist agenda is to create a war in the Middle East that will result in a World War when is designed to create such destruction at it will cause the Second Coming of Jesus Christ which will  abuse the battle of Armageddon to occur.

The goal of the Christian Zionist religion is to bring about the apocalypse as soon as they possibly can. They interpret the Christian Scriptures in such a way that they believe they are on a mission from God, now I can see how any Christian Organization can be anymore Fundamentalist than wanting to destroy the world in the name of their Savior.  

Quote on Christian Zionist beliefs.

""Some Christian Zionists believe that the gathering of the Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus.The idea has been common in Protestant circles since the Reformation that Christians should actively support a Jewish return to the Land of Israel, along with the parallel idea that the Jews ought to be encouraged to become Christians as a means of fulfilling biblical prophecy."" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

Pastor Hagee Video where he says that God Sent Hitler to punish the Jews for not returning to Israel.

 

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The_Phantom_Stranger

How can you ask a Holocaust survivor how did God allow the Jews to be killed in Nazi Germany? He either doesn't exist, or he punished them like he said he was going to countless times in the Old Testament if they disobey.

Edited by Green Lion

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Wistman
37 minutes ago, Green Lion said:

How can you ask a Holocaust survivor how did God allow the Jews to be killed in Nazi Germany? He either doesn't exist, or he punished them like he said he was going to countless times in the Old Testament if they disobey.

God allowed five million non-Jews to die in the Nazi Holocaust, six million Jews.  Eleven million total. 

The state of Israel was a WWI plan, a political creation instigated by Walter Rothschild and Lord Balfour, it took time to become a reality, and it took terrorist acts by Menachim Begin and others to drive the Palestinians out of their homes through fear.  It is a political creation by not-so-noble humans. 

The annealing of American Fundamentalist Christianity to the state of Israel is about temporal power, and many foolish believers.  When was the last time you heard a right-wing Conservative Baptist preacher rail against the legal abortions in Israel?  Or the brutality visited upon the Palestinians, who owned the land before England 'gave' it to the Ashkenazi jews?  And no, the Ashkenazi Jews (like Walter Rothschild) are not the inheritors of that land of old, it is not their patrimony.  Maybe so of the semitic jews who still live there, but certainly not for the Ashkenazi, who are not genetically Semitic, who vastly dominate the state in numbers, but who originate from what is now Crimea.

So no, God didn't give it to them, if you believe the Bible.  And the Bible is, clearly, not helpful in these modern political machinations, it is just used to justify an international aggression, a political outpost manned by Europeans in the center of the Middle East as the Ottoman Empire and European colonial power there disintegrated.   IMHO

Edited by Wistman
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Wistman
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

This really has nothing to with politics, it's about how Christian Fundamentalists ( Christian Zionists ) are trying to domination other Christian groups like the Lutherans. In the link it brings up a gentleman whose name is Pastor John Hagee who is the head of a Church called Christians United for Israel (CUFI). This Church is the largest Evangelical Christian Zionist Church in the world and it located in Texas.

That gentleman is a bit of a hypocrite, on one hand he calls his organization Christians United for Israel (CUFI) and then he gives a sermon saying that Hitler was sent by God to punish the European Jews for not returning to Israel. In addition the Christian Zionist agenda is to create a war in the Middle East that will result in a World War when is designed to create such destruction at it will cause the Second Coming of Jesus Christ which will  abuse the battle of Armageddon to occur.

The goal of the Christian Zionist religion is to bring about the apocalypse as soon as they possibly can. They interpret the Christian Scriptures in such a way that they believe they are on a mission from God, now I can see how any Christian Organization can be anymore Fundamentalist than wanting to destroy the world in the name of their Savior.  

Quote on Christian Zionist beliefs.

""Some Christian Zionists believe that the gathering of the Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus.The idea has been common in Protestant circles since the Reformation that Christians should actively support a Jewish return to the Land of Israel, along with the parallel idea that the Jews ought to be encouraged to become Christians as a means of fulfilling biblical prophecy."" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

Pastor Hagee Video where he says that God Sent Hitler to punish the Jews for not returning to Israel.

 

It's great to see a Lutheran taking on the Zionists in far-right American Christianity.  Should have come much sooner, but good nevertheless.  Unfortunately, the mega-church TV fundamentalists already have enormous power through their vast media ownership and the mega-church hypnotism over their flock.  And it seems that a lot of our military has inculcated these beliefs, especially the air force, I'm told.  I don't know if that's true, but I've heard it here and there.

I wonder sometimes if people near the top of this pseudo-religious pyramid who claim to believe such rapture thrills, like Pompeo for instance, a highly educated man with genuine (cynical) experience in the echelons of power, really do believe it or if they're just opportunists who know who pulls the power strings and what their goals are.

I hope some other leaders of Christian denominations begin to raise their voice against the rapture crowd, and quick.

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Autochthon1990
1 hour ago, Green Lion said:

How can you ask a Holocaust survivor how did God allow the Jews to be killed in Nazi Germany? He either doesn't exist, or he punished them like he said he was going to countless times in the Old Testament if they disobey.

There's a reason there's so many secular Jews running around

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spartan max2
3 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Nice try Lutherans, we haven't forgotten how your founder reacted when we told him 'no thanks' to your tract. Conservatives, this **** is why we don't vote republican...well that and the nazi thing, it's because you don't care about US or our rights, you just want us to move onto the right spot of the board so your carpenter god can haul back to earth. 

The majority of democrats also support Israel.

The only people who voted against the recent Iron Dome funding were "the squad" except for AOC who voted present and then like cried about it because it was too painful to vote present or whatever lol

 

 

Edited by spartan max2
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Abramelin
3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

"My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

J.

And that's where things went wrong.

In case anyone forgot: Jesus was a Jew.

And so were his 'servants'.

 

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and then
2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

And that's where things went wrong.

In case anyone forgot: Jesus was a Jew.

And so were his 'servants'.

 

Yet he came to teach them a new way.  They rejected Him and His "way" and convinced a Roman government to do their dirty work.  An Den?  An What?  None of this changes Him or His message.  People still have the choice today to accept Him and His way, or to reject it.  In the not too distant future that choice will be made in reaction to force.  Meanwhile, be sure to stay away from the evil CZs.  Most are ignorant white supremacists bent on destroying America's "culture".  These threads are so predictable they write themselves.

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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, Wistman said:

It's great to see a Lutheran taking on the Zionists in far-right American Christianity.  Should have come much sooner, but good nevertheless.  Unfortunately, the mega-church TV fundamentalists already have enormous power through their vast media ownership and the mega-church hypnotism over their flock.  And it seems that a lot of our military has inculcated these beliefs, especially the air force, I'm told.  I don't know if that's true, but I've heard it here and there.

I wonder sometimes if people near the top of this pseudo-religious pyramid who claim to believe such rapture thrills, like Pompeo for instance, a highly educated man with genuine (cynical) experience in the echelons of power, really do believe it or if they're just opportunists who know who pulls the power strings and what their goals are.

I hope some other leaders of Christian denominations begin to raise their voice against the rapture crowd, and quick.

Thanks very much for your reply, and I certainly agree with every you are saying it is about time that other Christian Faiths do stand up to the Fundamentalist Christain Extremist organizations. Below is another Christian Reverend  speaking out about how the  American Christian Zionists movement is racially and intentionally helping Israel segregate the Arab population in Gaza and the West Bank funding Jewish settlements in areas that displace Palestinians and Palestinian Christians from their lands.

Below is Palestinian Christain Church Leader speaking out about the problems with American Christian Zionist Organizations .

 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Mr Walker
11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

The newest organization seeking to channel all of this religiously inspired political energy is Christians United for Israel (CUFI). CUFI is led by John Hagee, pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Tex. Calling support for Israel “God’s foreign policy” can sound quaint. Doing so while holding conferences addressed by sitting United States congresspersons (including Joseph Liberman, Rick Santorum, and Sam Brownback), addressed by former Israeli Prime Ministers like Shimon Peres and Benjamin Netanyahu and featuring a “Middle East Briefing” presented by former CIA director James Woolsey and former Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Moshe Ya’alon indicates a movement that portends far-reaching consequences for global well-being. 

Christian Zionism is a politically mobilized strand of Christian fundamentalism committed to preserving Jewish control over all of historic Palestine to ensure the realization of the movement’s own end-times hope. Both a political theology and a philosophy of history, Christian Zionism builds on the futurist system of biblical prophecy interpretation known as “premillenial dispensationalism,” a system popularly expressed as “Armageddon theology” or “rapture theology.” Christian Zionism places the State of Israel (and, often, the United States) at the center of God’s purposes for “the end of the age.” The label “Christian Zionism” refers to something quite distinct from well-intentioned Christian efforts to support Jewish well-being;12 the movement is more than general Christian support for Jewish Zionism or the State of Israel.

http://www.elcjhl.org/palestine/Zionism/08maysmith.pdf

I don't have any interest in the theological beliefs about Israel's  place in biblical prophecy 

However I am a strong supporter of Israel for both practical and  moral reasons 

Practically it is  one bastion of democracy  in an area containing mostly autocracies or dictatorships (both secular and religious ) 

Secondly  (and this is personal opinion alter living through the historical evolution of Israel since the 1950s ) Israel is the good guy in the middle eastern conflict, and always has been 

It doesn't seek the destruction of the states around it as the y have always sought it's destruction Every expansion of Israel was a consequence of failed attacks on it by  more powerful enemies  

(philosophically based on historical precedent i believe that t land won in defence of ones country (as opposed to land won by offensive conquest) is rightfully the possession of the winner  Thus Israel has the right to decide  what to do with that  land 

IMO it would be nice to create  a Palestinian state, but this would require guarantees for non aggression, which might not be practical Many surrounding states are still technically in a state of war with Israel, and have continued to seek its extermination as public policy. 

Another solution is more equal rights for Palestinians within Israel. 

Israel has strong support in America  for similar reasons   including practical/ strategic ones.

I am sure your report is true, but   most American support for Israel is not religious, but either politically or morally based Ie Israel is a  significant   strategic ally of the US, and its historical formation is part of America's last great military victory. 

Most Americans feel sympathy  for Jewish people  and many probably feel an   historical connection to them,    even if that is now born from movies rather than personal memories of WW2

Edited by Mr Walker
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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't have any interest in the theological beliefs about Israel's  place in biblical prophecy 

However I am a strong supporter of Israel for both practical and  moral reasons 

Practically it is  one bastion of democracy  in an area containing mostly autocracies or dictatorships (both secular and religious ) 

Secondly  (and this is personal opinion alter living through the historical evolution of Israel since the 1950s ) Israel is the good guy in the middle eastern conflict, and always has been 

It doesn't seek the destruction of the states around it as the y have always sought it's destruction Every expansion of Israel was a consequence of failed attacks on it by  more powerful enemies  

Israel has strong support in America for similar reasons   including practical/ strategic ones.

I am sure your report is true, but   most American support for Israel is not religious, but either politically or morally based Ie Israel is a  significant   strategic ally of the US, and its historical formation is part of America's last great military victory. 

Most Americans feel sympathy  for Jewish people  and many probably feel an   historical connection to them,    even if that is now born from movies rather than personal memories of WW2

Thanks for your reply, but some of your comments are totally incorrect, and some of your comments are not accurate and I can provide information below that will disprove some of your comments above. 

1. I quote you from above ""most American support for Israel is not religious,"' Yes Israel does have strong support in America, and that strong support is from Christian Fundamentalist Groups ( Christian Zionists ), and the largest part of that support come from Christian Zionist Evangelical Churches like Christians United for Israel (CUFI). CUFI is led by John Hagee, pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, and Reverend Robert Jeffress First Baptist Church, Dallas, Texas who are both Christian Zionists who like all others hide under the disguise of Evangelical Christianity. These are the groups that supply 90%+ of all Non-Government aide to Israel and they are the largest American supporters of Israel. 

Here is a example of the financial support that the above organizations give to Israel for building settlement in the Palestinian Territories, and also is why they doe this and what their hidden agenda actually is.

""The Evangelicals believe that there will be a golden age where Jesus Christ reigns on Earth. However, before his return there will be a tribulation where Christ defeats evil, but not after natural disasters, wars and the Antichrist devastate the world. After these tribulations, the Evangelicals believe that the people of the Mosaic covenant, including the Jews who will convert, will bring on the so-called golden age. They believe that with Jews reclaiming the Holy Lands for themselves, they are bringing the world closer to the second coming of Christ and therefore play an important role in Christian prophecy.""

""The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, funded largely by American Evangelicals ( Christian Zionist ) and since being founded in 1983, has raised a total of $1.5 billion for Israel. It is for this reason that the Christian Zionists have unequivocally and blindly supported Israel and justify their inhumane treatment of the Palestinians. One such example is Israel’s largest charity, The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, funded largely by American Evangelicals and since being founded in 1983, has raised a total of $1.5 billion for Israel. However, mixed in with this prophecy which is used to justify their support for an apartheid racist regime, is politics and US interventionism. Evangelical pastor Robert Jeffress claims it makes geopolitical sense to wholeheartedly support Israel — “our only reliable ally in the Middle East.""

In January when Pence visited Israel and spoke at the Knesset, the heads of the established Christian churches in Palestine refused to meet with him during his trip, revealing the schism between Evangelicals and the Christians in the Holy Land. Palestinian Archbishop Atallah Hanna, Head of the Sebastia Diocese of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, stated: “The Christian Evangelists are tantamount to pulpits in the service of the Zionist enterprise. They are enemies of Christian values, and when they come to Palestine they do not visit the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Church of the Nativity, but rather [Jewish communities] located on the stolen lands of our people as a sign of solidarity with [Israel].”

The Rise of Christian Zionism – The Christian Evangelical Assault on Palestine The Rise of Christian Zionism – The Christian Evangelical Assault on Palestine | (syncreticstudies.com)

 

2. I quote you from above ""Israel is a  significant strategic ally of the US, and its historical formation is part of America's last great military victory"" My friend you really need to do a little research, because the US had nothing to do with the formation of Israel as a State in 1948. 

 ""In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate over Palestine which included, among other things, provisions calling for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, facilitating Jewish immigration and encouraging Jewish settlement on the land. On November 29, 1947, after much debate and discussion, the UN recommended the partition of Palestine into two states ­ one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted the UN resolution while the Arabs rejected it. Meanwhile, since the time of the British Mandate, the Jewish community in Palestine had been forming political, social and economic institutions that governed daily life in Palestine and served as a pre-state infrastructure. Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973) served as head of the pre-state government.""

""The British mandate over Palestine officially terminated at midnight, May 14, 1948. Earlier in the day, at 4:00 p.m., David Ben-Gurion proclaimed the creation of the State of Israel and became its first prime minister. Longtime advocate of Zionism in Britain Chaim Weizmann (1874-1952) became Israel's first president. On May 15, the United States recognized the State of Israel and the Soviet Union soon followed suit." 

Creation of the State of Israel

Creation of the State of Israel | ADL

 

Last my friend I do agree completely that most Americans feel sympathy for the Jewish people and in some ways support Israel. I am one of those Americans, and I believe hands down they are our greatest Allie in the Middle East. But this Conversation isn't is about Israel in reality, its about Fundamentalist Christian organizations that are known as American Christian Zionists, and how they effect other Christians Organizations in the US and around the world. Its also about their hidden agenda ( For supporting Israel ) and their apocalyptic designs to create conflict in the Middle East to attempt to create a environment that will allow a situation to occur that will bring the Second Coming Of Christ. But before this can occur they have a great deal work to do, somehow to get the remaining Jewish Populations to return to Israel, and to help the Israelis reclaim all the lands that were given to them as part of Gods Covenant with them. 

Oh and by the way, according to the Christian Zionists the Jewish people will all go to hell unless they convert to Christianity. Which is actually a reticules belief, especially since the Jewish people have always been Gods chosen people, long long before Christianity or Jesus Christ was ever even thought of, and what is also really weird about the Christian Zionist views they totally forget that Jesus was a JEW! 

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Manwon Lender
5 hours ago, and then said:

Yet he came to teach them a new way.  They rejected Him and His "way" and convinced a Roman government to do their dirty work.  An Den?  An What?  None of this changes Him or His message.  People still have the choice today to accept Him and His way, or to reject it.  In the not too distant future that choice will be made in reaction to force.  Meanwhile, be sure to stay away from the evil CZs.  Most are ignorant white supremacists bent on destroying America's "culture".  These threads are so predictable they write themselves.

Actually and I mean this sincerely since you practice the faith, it would be great if you could expand on the Christian Zionist Religious beliefs.

Thanks

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Thanks for your reply, but some of your comments are totally incorrect, and some of your comments are not accurate and I can provide information below that will disprove some of your comments above. 

1. I quote you from above ""most American support for Israel is not religious,"' Yes Israel does have strong support in America, and that strong support is from Christian Fundamentalist Groups ( Christian Zionists ), and the largest part of that support come from Christian Zionist Evangelical Churches like Christians United for Israel (CUFI). CUFI is led by John Hagee, pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, and Reverend Robert Jeffress First Baptist Church, Dallas, Texas who are both Christian Zionists who like all others hide under the disguise of Evangelical Christianity. These are the groups that supply 90%+ of all Non-Government aide to Israel and they are the largest American supporters of Israel. 

Here is a example of the financial support that the above organizations give to Israel for building settlement in the Palestinian Territories, and also is why they doe this and what their hidden agenda actually is.

""The Evangelicals believe that there will be a golden age where Jesus Christ reigns on Earth. However, before his return there will be a tribulation where Christ defeats evil, but not after natural disasters, wars and the Antichrist devastate the world. After these tribulations, the Evangelicals believe that the people of the Mosaic covenant, including the Jews who will convert, will bring on the so-called golden age. They believe that with Jews reclaiming the Holy Lands for themselves, they are bringing the world closer to the second coming of Christ and therefore play an important role in Christian prophecy.""

""The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, funded largely by American Evangelicals ( Christian Zionist ) and since being founded in 1983, has raised a total of $1.5 billion for Israel. It is for this reason that the Christian Zionists have unequivocally and blindly supported Israel and justify their inhumane treatment of the Palestinians. One such example is Israel’s largest charity, The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, funded largely by American Evangelicals and since being founded in 1983, has raised a total of $1.5 billion for Israel. However, mixed in with this prophecy which is used to justify their support for an apartheid racist regime, is politics and US interventionism. Evangelical pastor Robert Jeffress claims it makes geopolitical sense to wholeheartedly support Israel — “our only reliable ally in the Middle East.""

In January when Pence visited Israel and spoke at the Knesset, the heads of the established Christian churches in Palestine refused to meet with him during his trip, revealing the schism between Evangelicals and the Christians in the Holy Land. Palestinian Archbishop Atallah Hanna, Head of the Sebastia Diocese of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, stated: “The Christian Evangelists are tantamount to pulpits in the service of the Zionist enterprise. They are enemies of Christian values, and when they come to Palestine they do not visit the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Church of the Nativity, but rather [Jewish communities] located on the stolen lands of our people as a sign of solidarity with [Israel].”

The Rise of Christian Zionism – The Christian Evangelical Assault on Palestine The Rise of Christian Zionism – The Christian Evangelical Assault on Palestine | (syncreticstudies.com)

 

2. I quote you from above ""Israel is a  significant strategic ally of the US, and its historical formation is part of America's last great military victory"" My friend you really need to do a little research, because the US had nothing to do with the formation of Israel as a State in 1948. 

 ""In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate over Palestine which included, among other things, provisions calling for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, facilitating Jewish immigration and encouraging Jewish settlement on the land. On November 29, 1947, after much debate and discussion, the UN recommended the partition of Palestine into two states ­ one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted the UN resolution while the Arabs rejected it. Meanwhile, since the time of the British Mandate, the Jewish community in Palestine had been forming political, social and economic institutions that governed daily life in Palestine and served as a pre-state infrastructure. Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973) served as head of the pre-state government.""

""The British mandate over Palestine officially terminated at midnight, May 14, 1948. Earlier in the day, at 4:00 p.m., David Ben-Gurion proclaimed the creation of the State of Israel and became its first prime minister. Longtime advocate of Zionism in Britain Chaim Weizmann (1874-1952) became Israel's first president. On May 15, the United States recognized the State of Israel and the Soviet Union soon followed suit." 

Creation of the State of Israel

Creation of the State of Israel | ADL

 

Last my friend I do agree completely that most Americans feel sympathy for the Jewish people and in some ways support Israel. I am one of those Americans, and I believe hands down they are our greatest Allie in the Middle East. But this Conversation isn't is about Israel in reality, its about Fundamentalist Christian organizations that are known as American Christian Zionists, and how they effect other Christians Organizations in the US and around the world. Its also about their hidden agenda ( For supporting Israel ) and their apocalyptic designs to create conflict in the Middle East to attempt to create a environment that will allow a situation to occur that will bring the Second Coming Of Christ. But before this can occur they have a great deal work to do, somehow to get the remaining Jewish Populations to return to Israel, and to help the Israelis reclaim all the lands that were given to them as part of Gods Covenant with them. 

Oh and by the way, according to the Christian Zionists the Jewish people will all go to hell unless they convert to Christianity. Which is actually a reticules belief, especially since the Jewish people have always been Gods chosen people, long long before Christianity or Jesus Christ was ever even thought of, and what is also really weird about the Christian Zionist views they totally forget that Jesus was a JEW! 

 We are speaking about two different things 

First the almost universal American public (and govt ) support for Israel which has nothing to do with theology 

Second the far right  movement of Christian Zionism 

While fundamentalism is strong in America its by no means universal or even a majority of the population.

Within the fundamentalist movement thee may be a very zealous  christian Zionist movement but it s not really very powerful and this not really dangerous

In part i think this is an artificial division which is part of a wider conflict between biblical /fundamentalist Christians and a more secular section of  America This divides across state  and geographic parts of America,  with the   more secular, more populous more wealthy  states being in the east and west, and the traditional "bible belt  states  which are less populous and well off, more in the middle 

Thus there is no chance of  changing  the constitution and little chance of altering American  political/strategic  policies 

Personally (IMO)  the ideas is both non biblical and fanciful    

War with china is much more likely to produce a nuclear Armageddon than any biblical prophecy, no matter how hard some people  work towards it 

And those actively trying to produce Armageddon are  far fewer than those who simply believe it will happen because its written in the bible  

No matter how hard those zealots work the y can never  have the effect the y seek 

It is good for you to point out the inherent dangers and immorality of trying to produce Armageddon   but I wouldn't lose a seconds sleep over it.

Humans will kill themselves off,  or survive and prosper, by their own efforts, not according to any biblical prophecy 

Ps if those people knew their bible, they would know they can do nothing to hasten this prophetical  biblical event, and that their efforts, indeed, may hamper it, according to biblical theology ie iIn that theology, only god has the power to make and fulfill such events,  and humans would be interfering in god's work .  

I don't believe in Armageddon as biblical truth, but i have a pretty good knowledge and understanding of the bible narrative, including its prophecies,  and in particular  that of Revelations 

Strengthening Israel is LESS likely to result in war in the middle east, than abandoning her 

and of course anti semiticism is illogical, as well as being immoral.  

 

Christ was a jew and Christianity originated as a form of Judaism, but i doubt that many of the christian Zionists are well educated enough to know that  

The bible says that he died for everyone's sins   in creating the new covenant , which embraces ALL human beings 

 

 

ps I disagree with a lot of the quote above 

but that is a personal opinion based on my understanding of politics, history and the real world 

For better or worse, the Jews were granted a small state on the coast of the Mediterranean which they then had to fight for after being betrayed by Britain    and that  is what Israel would have remained if not for successive losses of territory after aggression from  neighbouring countries  Indeed Israel could have been much larger if it had not returned most of the territory it gained  and possibly could  be the owner and controller of the Suez canal  

finally, ww2 was Americas last significant military victory.

In defeating the Nazis they made possible ( and also morally  imperative)  the establishment  of  a homeland for the Jewish people 

Americans who saw the news reports of  the concentration camps  had sympathy for all Jewish people .

However it was also politically obvious that the "jewish problem" in many European states could be alleviated not by extermination but by   giving them their own homeland and nation  

it is significant that America recognised the state of Israel the day after it was formed  (or the same day allowing for time zone differences) 

and of course, both within the UN and outside of it, America was involved in, and a strong supporter of establishing the Jewish state 

quote

Soon after President Truman took office, he appointed several experts to study the Palestinian issue. In the summer of 1946, Truman established a special cabinet committee under the chairmanship of Dr. Henry F. Grady, an Assistant Secretary of State, who entered into negotiations with a parallel British committee to discuss the future of Palestine. In May 1946, Truman announced his approval of a recommendation to admit 100,000 displaced persons into Palestine and in October publicly declared his support for the creation of a Jewish state. Throughout 1947, the United Nations Special Commission on Palestine examined the Palestinian question and recommended the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. 

Despite growing conflict between Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews and despite the Department of State’s endorsement of a trusteeship, Truman ultimately decided to recognize the state Israel.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel

 

quote

US support for Israel isn't just about strategic calculation and foreign policy interests, or at least not anymore. For a long time, at the very least since the 1980s, it's also been about domestic politics and the way American politicians read American voters.

Congressional votes on issues relating to Israel are famously lopsided. The Senate resolution supporting Israel's recent offensives in Gaza passed unanimously, as many "pro-Israel" bills and resolutions do.

The simplest explanation for these lopsided votes is that supporting Israel is really, really popular among voters. "The single factor most driving the U.S.-Israel relationship appears to be the broad and deep support for Israel among the American public," Israel Institute program director Michael Koplow writes. "The average gap between those holding favorable and unfavorable views of Israel over [the past four administrations] is 31 points."

Indeed, Gallup data since 1988 consistently shows a much higher percentage of Americans sympathizing with Israelis than with Palestinians in the conflict:

Gallup_israel

But why is Israel so popular among Americans in the first place? One big reason is a perceived sense of "shared values." According to Barnett, the American moral image of Israel — "the only democracy in the Middle East," for example — is the "foundation of US-Israeli relations." Of course, as Barnett hastens to add, this leaves Israel vulnerable if Americans comes to believe that Israel has strayed from those shared values (more on that in the last section).

Religious groups are two other critically important factors. American Jews and evangelical Christians are two of the most politically engaged groups in the United States. They're major constituencies, respectively, in the Democratic and Republican parties. And both are overwhelmingly pro-Israel.

https://www.vox.com/2014/7/24/5929705/us-israel-friends

 

Edited by Mr Walker
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eight bits

It's not anything new for one group of Christians to tell another Christian group that they're doing it wrong. Paul does it in his letters, and complains that others do it to him.

Apart from that, ELCA is proud to be a left-wing activist organization. There's nothing unusual that their polar opponents turn out to be right-wing activists - on this issue and others besides.

Although ELCA is the largest Lutheran denomination in the US, there are others, the most visible being the Missouri Synod (second largest Lutheran denomination in the US, about 2 million members to ELCA's 4 million-ish). So here's a Missouri Synod cartoon about ELCA ... yup, the one group saying the other group is doing it wrong.

 

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Manwon Lender
8 hours ago, eight bits said:

It's not anything new for one group of Christians to tell another Christian group that they're doing it wrong. Paul does it in his letters, and complains that others do it to him.

Apart from that, ELCA is proud to be a left-wing activist organization. There's nothing unusual that their polar opponents turn out to be right-wing activists - on this issue and others besides.

Although ELCA is the largest Lutheran denomination in the US, there are others, the most visible being the Missouri Synod (second largest Lutheran denomination in the US, about 2 million members to ELCA's 4 million-ish). So here's a Missouri Synod cartoon about ELCA ... yup, the one group saying the other group is doing it wrong.

 

I understand what you saying, and its a very good reply. To me it's not so much what one Christian Group thinks of another Group, it's about their true intent or their hidden. This is what really separates these Groups, and to me it's the only thing that's really important. 

Oh and by the way, I am actually familiar with the Missouri Synod, I was born and grew up in St. Louis.

Peace my friend!:tu:

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and then
On 9/27/2021 at 3:04 AM, Mr Walker said:

Christianity originated as a form of Judaism,

Which of the Mosaic Laws were they required to keep in order to be forgiven their transgressions?  Which were liable to cause them to lose their salvation if they did not keep them?  

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Mr Walker
On 9/29/2021 at 4:50 AM, and then said:

Which of the Mosaic Laws were they required to keep in order to be forgiven their transgressions?  Which were liable to cause them to lose their salvation if they did not keep them?  

Originally all of them were to be kept , as Christ did. However any transgressions were forgiven  The laws were not religious ones but based on practical concerns for health and social cohesion  Religion was used to give them more authority but ultimately its between a person and god how they live  Personal/ individual sins can be forgiven through  the  process described in the bible of   confessing (including to yourself) that you have done wrong,  making restitution and seeking forgiveness from  god and those you harmed, Then you have to do your best to not repeat the sin 

However Christ told us to obey the laws in love ( not from fear or legalism) as they were given in love  (the laws were made for us, not us for the laws )   Like a law on speeding  The law is there for a reason, but it can be disobeyed under certain circumstances, without penalty 

eg while it was still best to refrain from some foods ,  you could eat them,  so as not to offend a host, by refusing food put before you.  

Christ's role( in theology) was to remove the sins of all humanity (original sin)  and  provide us with new,  white, shining clothes.

Indeed to make us new human beings  

His physical practical role was to show us how we all can (and should)  live and behave, think and feel 

Slowly some of the laws were shown to have an ongoing scientific basis while others were  "culturally adaptive"  and thus could be ignored 

ALL 10  of  the ten commandments, however,  are said, biblically, to apply to all  people, for all time 

 

There are many Christians who still keep many of the biblical laws both for practical reasons (many are good for you) and as a mark of love /respect for god.  

However, like many Jews (for different reasons)   many Christians have adopted a belief that the laws no longer apply   even though Christ said that he came to fulfill the laws not to do away with them 

Other laws are simply no longer relevant or socially acceptable. 

 

Ps if you look at the laws of Leviticus its surprising how many of them remain offences  because  they   are designed to strengthen society  

Others are no longer illegal but still disapproved of.

' examples

  

5.      Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve witnessed (5:1) [“They will be held responsible.”]

6.       Failing to testify against any wrongdoing you’ve been told about (5:1) [Which sounds like hearsay. At any rate, “they shall be held responsible.”]

These still apply to mandatory reporting and often to ordinary law

 

.  9.     Deceiving a neighbour about something trusted to them (6:2) [Return the item and a 20% penalty, plus normal penalty.]

10.   Finding lost property and lying about it (6:3) [Return the item and a 20% penalty, plus normal penalty.]

 

Edited by Mr Walker
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odas
On 9/26/2021 at 4:32 PM, and then said:

Yet he came to teach them a new way.  They rejected Him and His "way" and convinced a Roman government to do their dirty work.  An Den?  An What?  None of this changes Him or His message.  People still have the choice today to accept Him and His way, or to reject it.  In the not too distant future that choice will be made in reaction to force.  Meanwhile, be sure to stay away from the evil CZs.  Most are ignorant white supremacists bent on destroying America's "culture".  These threads are so predictable they write themselves.

So, according to your post, the Jews are wrong in their belief? But you are supporting Israel and the deaths of innocent Jews, Muslims and Christians in the middle east? 

You sure you are following Jesus? 

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odas
On 9/26/2021 at 9:31 AM, Autochthon1990 said:

Nice try Lutherans, we haven't forgotten how your founder reacted when we told him 'no thanks' to your tract. Conservatives, this **** is why we don't vote republican...well that and the nazi thing, it's because you don't care about US or our rights, you just want us to move onto the right spot of the board so your carpenter god can haul back to earth. 

The one question that I cannot answer myself:

Jews don't hate Jesus. Muslims don't hate Jesus. Budhists don't hate Jesus. Hindus don't hate Jesus. Atheists don't hate Jesus.

So why do Christian Evangelical Zionists hate Jesus?

 

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