The Eclipse of Europe

[LV-426]

1 minute ago, Br Cornelius said:

If your humour is that childish be my guest. But yes bitter is the best word.
 

Br Cornelius

 

Childish is the only option with you.

 

I presented you with reasonable questions - you ignored them.

I presented you with reasonable arguments - you replied with enmity.

I asked you to be respectful - you declined, instead preferring to make radical generalizations about millions of British people.

You simply aren't inellectually or emotionally capable of rational discourse.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

4 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

 

Childish is the only option with you.

 

I presented you with reasonable questions - you ignored them.

I presented you with reasonable arguments - you replied with enmity.

I asked you to be respectful - you declined, instead preferring to make radical generalizations about millions of British people.

You simply aren't inellectually or emotionally capable of rational discourse.

Says you. I will take that under advisement.

probably best if you put me on ignore if it upsets you so much, you see I am only thinking of your best interests.

 

Br Cornelius

Edited September 29, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[Silver]

On a lighter note I present the Private Eye cover:

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Sovereignty is a totem waved infront of the gullible, no one has the control they imagine they want. Ask a Scot if they are happy with their Sovereignty, ask a real Welshman.
Things are done at an appropriate scale to what is required and some things require transnational cooperation, somethings can best be done at the county level. We group together to achieve strength and advantage at an appropriate scale. Brexit has made it abundantly clear that those with the biggest populations/markets get what they want from negotiations and those without fall in with what they can get. Ultimately utility trumps the imagined advantages offered by absolute sovereignty.

Safer to be a small fish in a shoal of small fish than a Minnow in an Ocean of Sharks.
 

Br Cornelius

Edited September 29, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[LV-426]

38 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

Says you. I will take that under advisement.

probably best if you put me on ignore if it upsets you so much, you see I am only thinking of your best interests.

 

Br Cornelius

 

I'll do you an even bigger favour.

 

I've been back-and-forth to the forums a few times in the last few years, and every time the level of hostility on display between members has increased almost exponentially. A sad reflection of life in general, I guess.

I think the true intent of these forums, the very reason we all likely joined in the first place - to discuss the unexplained - is drowning in a polarized political quagmire.

Does anyone really want to see this in every topic, even outside the politics section?

It doesn't matter whether it's Brexit in a tennis thread, or Trump in a movie thread, it's becoming joyless here.

Even in the unexplained sections, the level of hostility has become far more acute. I don't know whether it's a carry over from the politics, or whether people in general are forgetting how to "agree to disagree."

 

I'm no better, and get sucked into it as easily as the next guy. I don't want to be that person. It's unhealthy.

For me personally, it's time to move on and look for things that bring a little pleasure into precious free time.

[NE1]

 

7 hours ago, LV-426 said:

 

I'll do you an even bigger favour.

 

I've been back-and-forth to the forums a few times in the last few years, and every time the level of hostility on display between members has increased almost exponentially. A sad reflection of life in general, I guess.

I think the true intent of these forums, the very reason we all likely joined in the first place - to discuss the unexplained - is drowning in a polarized political quagmire.

Does anyone really want to see this in every topic, even outside the politics section?

It doesn't matter whether it's Brexit in a tennis thread, or Trump in a movie thread, it's becoming joyless here.

Even in the unexplained sections, the level of hostility has become far more acute. I don't know whether it's a carry over from the politics, or whether people in general are forgetting how to "agree to disagree."

 

I'm no better, and get sucked into it as easily as the next guy. I don't want to be that person. It's unhealthy.

For me personally, it's time to move on and look for things that bring a little pleasure into precious free time.

Couldn’t agree more with this statement.

There certainly doesn’t seem to be any middle ground on some discussions it’s just absolutes. A shame to be honest.

If you move on from the forum all the best. 

 

 

[Guest Br Cornelius]

7 hours ago, LV-426 said:

 

I'll do you an even bigger favour.

 

I've been back-and-forth to the forums a few times in the last few years, and every time the level of hostility on display between members has increased almost exponentially. A sad reflection of life in general, I guess.

I think the true intent of these forums, the very reason we all likely joined in the first place - to discuss the unexplained - is drowning in a polarized political quagmire.

Does anyone really want to see this in every topic, even outside the politics section?

It doesn't matter whether it's Brexit in a tennis thread, or Trump in a movie thread, it's becoming joyless here.

Even in the unexplained sections, the level of hostility has become far more acute. I don't know whether it's a carry over from the politics, or whether people in general are forgetting how to "agree to disagree."

 

I'm no better, and get sucked into it as easily as the next guy. I don't want to be that person. It's unhealthy.

For me personally, it's time to move on and look for things that bring a little pleasure into precious free time.

You think your a victim here, but the amount of bile and personal attacks that come the way of  anyone of a left leaning viewpoint is astonishing. I don't attack you I attack your dubious ideas. Its always been that way and every time I come back to UM I see the same fanatical right wingers spewing their bile at the world and working themselves up into a throth over the commie plots to do them down. These people live breath and eat such extreme CT's that they cannot see how utterly extreme their position is. They had a few years in the sun crowing at everyone else when Trump was president about how they were right all along - and see where that got us. Its the drift to the extreme right that has poisoned discourse.

Good riddance if you can't take the heat.

 

Br Cornelius

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[Ozymandias]

 

16 hours ago, LV-426 said:

You're mindlessly buying into the narrative of those with an extremely prejudical view of Britain.

Are people who take a negative view of Brexit prejudiced? Negative views of an issue can be objectively negative when based upon its intrinsic merits. Is it prejudiced to say that Hitler was wrong? Or that AIDS is not a judgement of God on homosexuals? 

Quote

Ask the Irish posters - including one particular faux-Irish poster - whether their views are in any way coloured through the lens of history.

Are your views of the Irish posters distorted by your historical lens?

Quote

Ask them if their accusation of xenophobia is in reality at the very core of their own view of Britain, or let's be specific... England. A tip though, don't expect an honest answer, as it's easier to point the finger at others than oneself.

There are aspects of Britain, and of Britain's history, that I dislike. Most people understand the history of relations between Ireland and the UK. Generally speaking, Ireland was the injured party. Even today Ireland's position was not considered by Brexiteers when they decided to leave Europe. They had no interest or concern for the consequences for Ireland and, indeed, were frequently quite nasty in their comments. It was a case of Ireland had no right or business putting itself in the way of Britain's Brexit from the EU. As it turns out we've weathered that storm pretty well, but the comments and behaviour of prominent Brexiteers in the UK (and on this forum) still resonate.

Quote

Would you accept a trading union in Canada becoming a military union, with limited say on the people that lead that military?

No? I thought not.

I think you live in such a union. What say have you over your military leaders? None!

 

19 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Christ, are even Canadians moaning about ****ing Brexit these days?

Brexit affects you in what way?

A general observation on this comment:

This is an international forum where anybody can express their views on any subject. Topics that are about the UK are not up for discussion by UK people only, topics about Europe are not just for Europeans, etc.

Similarly, an issue does not have to affect you directly to give you licence to comment on it. If that were the case international forums would have to close and just become national ones.

So, as they say, if you cannot stand the heat you should not be in the kitchen.

Edit: Just read your last post in this thread and realised that maybe that is exactly what you did! You won't see this then, but if you have moved take care and good luck.

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Ozymandias

[Silver]

I agree with the international aspect of topics. Here is an American view of what has been happening with  the EU and the UK recently, and is a very good read:

Brexiters had promised that leaving the E.U. would allow Britain to “take back control.” But, in fact, the checks were all one-way. Under the strain of the new system, the United Kingdom was forced to keep pushing back the date at which it would apply import controls on goods coming in from Europe. First it was shunted to April 2021, then delayed by six months, and then delayed again to January 2022. It’s quite possible they will never be imposed.

The most severe impact Brexit had on the U.K. is through labor shortages. Tens of thousands of European workers who had lived in Britain as part of the E.U.’s free-movement rules left after the Brexit vote or during the coronavirus pandemic. .....

Brexiters had claimed that this was a positive development: ....

Without European truck drivers, there was no one to get goods where they needed to be. Supermarket aisles appeared emptier. Over the past week, the tankers used to get fuel to gas stations have been unable to provide enough supply, and the country has been hit by a severe gasoline crisis. ....

It's a moment of acute national self-harm. Recent polling has found that just 18 percent of Brits think Brexit is going well, while 53 percent think it is going badly.

Brexit food and gas shortages were predictable. Brexiteers just ignored them. - The Washington Post (archive.ph)

Edited September 30, 2021 by The Silver Shroud

[Ozymandias]

To get back on track and discuss the Eclipse of Europe. Unless we are stupid enough - and who knows - Europe can never be eclipsed except through nuclear war and the nuclear winter that follows. How anybody with any modicum of understand and sense can say that Europe will be eclipsed is beyond me!

History shows that there is always strength in collaboration and human political evolution shows that too with state unifications and confederacies in the past. Governments today are tending more to be coalitions and the most successful states have been democratic confederacies.

The EU has its problems but it will work through them. All 27 countries stood four-square behind Ireland even when the UK tried to go behind the back of Barnier's negotiating team and attempted to weaken its resolve by dealing directly with individual countries. I do not think the far right can undermine the EU to the point where it will collapse. There is too much at stake and too much to lose. If anything good is coming out of Brexit it is that secessionism and populism are a dead-end. The better-educated and sensible people who can see the benefits of collaboration, even if it involves some pain or loss of sovereignty, will not let allow there futures to be threatened by demagoguery, division and appeals to base human instincts.  

[The_Phantom_Stranger]

Almost all the brave Europeans left Europe centuries ago.

[Susanc241]

17 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Brexit was the end of a union which was originally sold as an economic union with the formation of the EEC, which morphed into a political union, which is rapidly morphing into a military union, which nobody in Britain ever asked for:

I was going to make the self same point, but you beat me to it.   I am old enough to have voted against joining the EEC so make no apologies for being relieved we have left this federal minded ‘club’.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

26 minutes ago, Green Lion said:

Almost all the brave Europeans left Europe centuries ago.

We shipped off all our religious fanatics to the USA. That worked out well for America.

 

Br Cornelius

[Silver]

To be fair, populism is a fascinating phenomena. Sensible, rational people being persuaded to sacrifice their own and their countries wealth and well-being because they were taken in by mindless three word slogans. Populism makes people take leave of their senses. 

[odas]

19 hours ago, LV-426 said:

 

You're mindlessly buying into the narrative of those with an extremely prejudical view of Britain.

Ask Helen her views on Britain's involvement in the Yugoslav Wars.

Ask the Irish posters - including one particular faux-Irish poster - whether their views are in any way coloured through the lens of history.

Ask them if their accusation of xenophobia is in reality at the very core of their own view of Britain, or let's be specific... England. A tip though, don't expect an honest answer, as it's easier to point the finger at others than oneself.

 

Brexit was the end of a union which was originally sold as an economic union with the formation of the EEC, which morphed into a political union, which is rapidly morphing into a military union, which nobody in Britain ever asked for:

Emmanuel Macron calls for creation of a ‘true European army’ to defend against Russia and the US

Emmanuel Macron gloats about European army and demands 'sovereign' EU

 

The way Remoaners would have it, Britain's planning to start up the East India Company again

 

Would you accept a trading union in Canada becoming a military union, with limited say on the people that lead that military?

No? I thought not.

I don't have a prejudice against Britain. I do have, however, a dislike for nationalism and the ME and ONLY ME mindset that Brexiters have.

I do not have to ask Helen about the British involvement during the Yugoslav wars. I don't have to ask anyone about the war itself or the involvement of other countries.

The main support for EU from the Balkan countries, minus Serbia, IS because of the Yugoslav wars. We had enough of any country proclaiming itself as Great, or Great again. Proclaiming itself better and superior than the rest. That is why we want, need a strong EU and be a part of it even if we do not agree with evey law within it. 

That Britain does not want to be a part of it is their choice and we have to respect their choice. BUT, what we do not respect is brexiteers trying to destabilise Europe, handing them over on a plate to Russia and other nationalist groups withing the countries in EU. As I said and as this looks like, the biggest enemy of peace in Europe is the brexiteers.

[Silver]

2 hours ago, Susanc241 said:

I was going to make the self same point, but you beat me to it.   I am old enough to have voted against joining the EEC so make no apologies for being relieved we have left this federal minded ‘club’.

You are one of the lucky ones then, no matter what happens to the country or the economy you will be feeling a sense of relief since January 1st! And I don't mean that in a sarky way. A lot of us didn't notice the difference between 2020 and 2021 apart from the political, trade and economic difficulties being reported. The joy of being freed from the fear of being drawn into a federation is hard to quantify.

[RAyMO]

It depends what is meant by the eclipse of Europe. If its economic power ,then yes, I fully expect Europe and the USA to be eclipsed by China and Asia in the near future. Its a numbers game 500 million or 350million v 3billion plus.

It will take much longer for either Europe or the USA to be eclipsed on a per capita basis. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by RAyMO

[Duke Wellington]

I think in 2050 it will be:

1. China 2. USA 3. EU. 4 India 5. CANZUK

When the USA drops a level it may sort something out with CANZUK. It probably wont be full political union, it will be some kind of `effective union` in practice without the legal ties.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Cookie Monster

[RAyMO]

8 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

I think in 2050 it will be:

1. China 2. USA 3. EU. 4 India 5. CANZUK

When the USA drops a level it may sort something out with CANZUK. It probably wont be full political union, it will be some kind of `effective union` in practice without the legal ties.

Assuming the UK will exist in 2050 is a big call. 

[Guest Br Cornelius]

When China becomes the economic superpower of the world you better be in a secure and stable trading block to look out for your interests. Now is exactly the time to be strengthening the EU.

I would say that if Hillary Clinton had of won her election she would have pressed for the War she was pushing for with Russia, this was a strong motivation for Russia to destabilize the EU and NATO because Europe would have been an essential supply point and staging post for any ground war. I still to this day am grateful that Hillary never won and didn't get the war she had been preparing for years, but Russia was still aware of the existential danger of a strong and potentially militarizing neighbour and did everything in its power to weaken them - hence their covert support of brexit.

I suppose you would have to have personally experienced the larges of the Russians to want to prevent them ever have your country under their sway again. Seems that the current Tory government is happy to peddle their influence for a few Rubles.

I often ask myself these days - who are the traitors in the UK ?

Br Cornelius

Edited September 30, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[aztek]

22 hours ago, The Silver Shroud said:

e Anti-Defamation League

The Anti-Defamation League Is Not What It Seems

Under the guise of fighting hate speech, the ADL has a long history of wielding its moral authority to attack Arabs, blacks, and queers.

https://bostonreview.net/politics/emmaia-gelman-anti-defamation-league-not-what-it-seems

[Grey Area]

6 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

I often ask myself these days - who are the traitors in the UK ?

The ones who abandon their country when things get difficult?

[Guest Br Cornelius]

4 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

The ones who abandon their country when things get difficult?

I left 20years ago, so keep your snide innuendo to yourself.
When I left I didn't think the UK could get much worse, how wrong I was.

Br Cornelius

Edited September 30, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[Grey Area]

2 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

so keep your snide innuendo to yourself.

Eeerm no thank you

[Tatetopa]

On 9/29/2021 at 9:19 AM, LV-426 said:

Christ, are even Canadians moaning about ****ing Brexit these days?

Brexit affects you in what way?

Trading alliances, balances of power, and major corporate powers all contribute to the state of the global economy.   Supply chains and shortages respect no political boundaries.  Over the last 100 years, we have built a very complex intertwined and interdependent world. When it becomes unstable it affects everybody.