The Eclipse of Europe

[+OverSword]

57 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

That's not an answer, that's evading the question. 

But even if you'd get enough votes, the first thing your representatives would do is not to take their newly won position away from themselves. Or the second. That's the last thing they'd do. 

In other words, you're still so naive.  

what are you talking about?  Well first off a libertarian president is ridiculous. As I've stated, to YOU, so many times  is that what needs to happen here isn't the libertarians take over.  It's that libertarians and socialists need to gain large presence in congress.  F the presidency, that's a move for shortsighted people if there is no support in the house.  Truthfully the politician I identify with, although he ran as a democrat, is Andrew Yang.  Mainly because he is not a dinosaur and has new ideas on where to get revenue and what to do with it, unlike Sanders who is the dinosaur, still thinking like a caveman.

[+OverSword]

1 hour ago, Br Cornelius said:

Most parties are broadly centerist in Europe. There are no parties in the electable league which I would call leftist since the few parties such as UK Labour and some Spanish parties were defeated.
 

Br Cornelius

HA!  Won't answer eh.  

[Silver]

Going back to the OP for a moment, the UK is likely to play a surprising role in the unity of Europe. One country, no matter how powerful, deciding to 'go it alone' is unique in political history. The whole of Europe will be watching it unfold. Already there is evidence that the UK has greated greater unity, and the extreme right parties in France and Italy can no longer use talk of leaving the EU as a political lever.

A problem the EU might have have is that as the UK goes into recession, it may adversely affect the EU's own economy  (although individual EU countries do little trade with the UK, collectively the EU does half its trade with the UK. A Telegraph article on the gloomy future for UK industry: Employers 'resist' end of cheap migrant labour, Kwarteng says (msn.com)

[Golden Duck]

12 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

Lets clarify this Oversword - Bernie Sanders - Communist or Social Democrat ?

Br Cornelius

Why expect @OverSword to know, when Banders doesn't even know himself?

[Guest Br Cornelius]

1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

Why expect @OverSword to know, when Banders doesn't even know himself?

The article I linked to gives an interesting perspective on that. But in objective terms he is a Social Democrat not a socialist as such.

 

Br Cornelius

[Helen of Annoy]

@OverSword Just to inform you that KPÖ (Communist party of Austria) won local elections in Graz (Austria), with remarkable 28.9%.

While I'd personally, physically join the efforts to remove possible totalitarian regime, seemingly left or right, I think sane, humane communists are desirable in political life of a country. 

The reason why you can have sane commies adding to political diversity, while you can't have the same with totalitarian communism/socialism (such as Stalinism), Nazis, fascists, clerical fascists and similar is that they've got no tolerant mode. Their whole ideologies and platforms consist of intolerance. 

Libertarians, to be honest, may make sense in the US in your current political and historic moment, but they don't make sense in EUrope.

There's no socially acceptable cult of selfishness in Europe. There is selfishness, of course, but it's not celebrated, it's still rather embarrassing. I'm trying to say that a political platform promising lack of responsibility and individualism brought to asocial extreme wouldn't fare well.    

After all, look at Brexit. The bizarre child of libertarianism and supremacism. 

 

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Libertarianism is the philosophy that never has to prove itself.

Br Cornelius

[Duke Wellington]

57 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

@OverSword Just to inform you that KPÖ (Communist party of Austria) won local elections in Graz (Austria), with remarkable 28.9%.

While I'd personally, physically join the efforts to remove possible totalitarian regime, seemingly left or right, I think sane, humane communists are desirable in political life of a country. 

The reason why you can have sane commies adding to political diversity, while you can't have the same with totalitarian communism/socialism (such as Stalinism), Nazis, fascists, clerical fascists and similar is that they've got no tolerant mode. Their whole ideologies and platforms consist of intolerance. 

Libertarians, to be honest, may make sense in the US in your current political and historic moment, but they don't make sense in EUrope.

There's no socially acceptable cult of selfishness in Europe. There is selfishness, of course, but it's not celebrated, it's still rather embarrassing. I'm trying to say that a political platform promising lack of responsibility and individualism brought to asocial extreme wouldn't fare well.    

After all, look at Brexit. The bizarre child of libertarianism and supremacism. 

You are actually arguing for `sane collectivism` whatever that is, against individual and economic freedom.

I hope you get it in the EU, this would be a dream outcome for an independent Britain. Let the EU ruin itself while we look out for the opportunities that arise because of it, and strike.

You might not like the USA and Britain, but one thing you cannot criticise is that our way has created so much wealth and prosperity. And for the last 500 years its been us too shaping the world. When was a communist regime the centre of civilization? Never.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Cookie Monster

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

You are actually arguing for `sane collectivism` whatever that is, against individual and economic freedom.

I hope you get it in the EU, this would be a dream outcome for an independent Britain. Let the EU ruin itself while we look out for the opportunities that arise because of it, and strike.

Freedom is not the same as the irresponsibility. Of course, morbidly selfish person will pretend that their freedom was limited if they've got any laws or obligations obstructing their whims. It's how badly raised toddlers think. A sane adult thinks of the consequences before they do something. (Like, when you are about to kick foreigners out of the country, you should make sure first they're not the actual majority of your workforce.) 

Regimes that were communist in name were not communist. They too had classes: clearly very privileged ruling class, repressive apparatus privileged class and common people one foot in prison or grave at all times. That's no communism. It takes either very ignorant or very dishonest person to not see the difference. 

Not that there's any danger of the EU going communist. Being socially sensible is a matter of common sense, but that's not communism either. 

 

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

You might not like the USA and Britain, but one thing you cannot criticise is that our way has created so much wealth and prosperity. And for the last 500 years its been us too shaping the world. When was a communist regime the centre of civilization? Never.

How desperate. If I don't share your delusion, it must mean that I don't like certain countries? 

Really? 

Each remoaner and each person anywhere in the world who is not happy with Brexit actually likes your country more than you do. Only someone who doesn't care for own country can wreck it in exchange for a short supremacy trip. 

But to be honest Brexit is a childish scam gone out of control. It was meant to be chronic extortion tool. Only the EU correctly assumed no one sane has time or desire to suffer brainless attempts at manipulation so you got exactly what you asked for. 

What you've got left are braindead trumpers to share your belief in Russian-made fairytales that aim to exploit your bizarre supremacist myths. 

And I'd just sit back and laugh, but, as I keep saying, there are sane people trapped in the same country with you. They need and deserve away out of crap you produced. 

[Duke Wellington]

57 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Freedom is not the same as the irresponsibility. Of course, morbidly selfish person will pretend that their freedom was limited if they've got any laws or obligations obstructing their whims. It's how badly raised toddlers think. A sane adult thinks of the consequences before they do something. (Like, when you are about to kick foreigners out of the country, you should make sure first they're not the actual majority of your workforce.) 

Regimes that were communist in name were not communist. They too had classes: clearly very privileged ruling class, repressive apparatus privileged class and common people one foot in prison or grave at all times. That's no communism. It takes either very ignorant or very dishonest person to not see the difference. 

Not that there's any danger of the EU going communist. Being socially sensible is a matter of common sense, but that's not communism either. 

How desperate. If I don't share your delusion, it must mean that I don't like certain countries? 

Really? 

Each remoaner and each person anywhere in the world who is not happy with Brexit actually likes your country more than you do. Only someone who doesn't care for own country can wreck it in exchange for a short supremacy trip. 

But to be honest Brexit is a childish scam gone out of control. It was meant to be chronic extortion tool. Only the EU correctly assumed no one sane has time or desire to suffer brainless attempts at manipulation so you got exactly what you asked for. 

What you've got left are braindead trumpers to share your belief in Russian-made fairytales that aim to exploit your bizarre supremacist myths. 

And I'd just sit back and laugh, but, as I keep saying, there are sane people trapped in the same country with you. They need and deserve away out of crap you produced. 

Regardless of whether a country gives its people freedom or control, there is still crime.

Therefore freedom is not the cause of irresponsibility, and taking it away doesn`t prevent it. Criminals exist in all societies under all political ideologies. What taking away freedom and replacing it with a planned economy does do, is create widespread poverty. I would also argue there are 10x as many more criminals in a controlled society which are all the people who dared speak out. You dont see us Brits squishing our people under tanks now do you?

No one who wants a nation to disappear loves that nation. A true Brit wants too `Make Britain Great Again` and knows we are perfectly capable of it. What you are scared of, what you are all scared of, and the reason why you want Britain dissolved, is you all know we are up to the task!!!!

You should accept it, we would be better top dogs than what Franco-Prussia would. 

[Guest Br Cornelius]

2 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Regardless of whether a country gives its people freedom or control, there is still crime.

Therefore freedom is not the cause of irresponsibility, and taking it away doesn`t prevent it. Criminals exist in all societies under all political ideologies. What taking away freedom and replacing it with a planned economy does do, is create widespread poverty. I would also argue there are 10x as many more criminals in a controlled society which are all the people who dared speak out. You dont see us Brits squishing our people under tanks now do you?

No one who wants a nation to disappear loves that nation. A true Brit wants too `Make Britain Great Again` and knows we are perfectly capable of it. What you are scared of, what you are all scared of, and the reason why you want Britain dissolved, is you all know we are up to the task!!!!

You should accept it, we would be better top dogs than what Franco-Prussia would. 

The ego and delusion, a true Englishman.

Br Cornelius

[godnodog]

20 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

 

I understand what you mean but Bernie Sanders is a socialist at very least (used to be communist) and though the Democratic Party is mostly social democrats (liberals in american language) t also has within its rank socialists and communists, just like the Republican Party tends more liberal (conservative in american language) with support or fascists and racists (I know the left have them too, but the right have more).

[itsnotoutthere]

21 hours ago, Br Cornelius said:

I very much doubt that people you label as communists are actual communists.
I bet you call Bernie Sanders a communist as well.

American politics has drifted so far to the right that I imagine its quite difficult for an American to be objective in such matters.

Br Cornelius

Yes, in much the same way that you & people on the left label anyone to the right of Boris Johnson as 'white supremacists' are actual 'white supremacists'.

Edited October 2, 2021 by itsnotoutthere

[godnodog]

3 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

You are actually arguing for `sane collectivism` whatever that is, against individual and economic freedom.

I hope you get it in the EU, this would be a dream outcome for an independent Britain. Let the EU ruin itself while we look out for the opportunities that arise because of it, and strike.

You might not like the USA and Britain, but one thing you cannot criticise is that our way has created so much wealth and prosperity. And for the last 500 years its been us too shaping the world. When was a communist regime the centre of civilization? Never.

The EU has always been big business, the difference for the US is that they at least try (even if only on paper) not to let the social/ecological aspect be forgotten.

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by godnodog

[Duke Wellington]

19 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

The ego and delusion, a true Englishman.

Br Cornelius

You just admitted you aren`t a true Englishman lol.

[itsnotoutthere]

10 minutes ago, godnodog said:

The EU has always been big business, the difference for the US is that they at least try (even if only on paper) not to let the social aspect be forgotten.

 

What 'social aspect'?

[Guest Br Cornelius]

56 minutes ago, godnodog said:

The EU has always been big business, the difference for the US is that they at least try (even if only on paper) not to let the social/ecological aspect be forgotten.

 

Yes the EU is at its core Capitalist and even Neo-Liberal in structure. It is literally all about competition between member state businesses.

Br Cornelius

[Guest Br Cornelius]

48 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

You just admitted you aren`t a true Englishman lol.

If it wasn't a hassle I would renounce my British citizenship as easily as taking a p***.

 

Br Cornelius

[Duke Wellington]

25 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

Yes the EU is at its core Capitalist and even Neo-Liberal in structure. It is literally all about competition between member state businesses.

Br Cornelius

Sure I mean the common agricultural policy is capitalist.

So is preventing any nation getting an advantage over the others in an area of industry lol.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Just now, Cookie Monster said:

Sure I mean the common agricultural policy is capitalist.

So is preventing any nation getting an advantage over the others in an area of industry lol.

There is not a single nation in the world that doesn't have an agricultural policy - to prevent their populations from starving. It would be exceptional if the EU didn't have an agricultural policy. This is basic common knowledge to anyone who isn't a free market fanatic.

Br Cornelius

[Duke Wellington]

2 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

There is not a single nation in the world that doesn't have an agricultural policy - to prevent their populations from starving. It would be exceptional if the EU didn't have an agricultural policy. This is basic common knowledge to anyone who isn't a free market fanatic.

Br Cornelius

Do you even know what its purpose is?

Its not to get you fed (there`s a hint).

[Guest Br Cornelius]

2 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Do you even know what its purpose is?

Its not to get you fed (there`s a hint).

Its to ensure the survival of rural communities whilst getting you fed. Not going to subscribe to any CT's about the CAP.

Br Cornelius

[L.A.T.1961]

The CAP is there to service the French, a big % of the Agriculture budget is swallowed up by Paris. It has been argued about for years and the French have hung on to it like a dog with a bone. 

The UK did try and sort the problem under, non other than, the pro EU PM Tony Blair (insert quire of angles here). He decided to give away a huge chunk of the UK rebate to start a serious CAP makeover. Unfortunately he handed over the cash before nailing the French to the carpet and they then later decided the original system was fine   and there was nothing to see here.  Tony was taken to the cleaners. 

It cost the UK billions which, you guessed it, went into the EU pot and then to the French to fund their big share of the CAP.

So if you try and build trust with Brussels, and hand them money like confetti to change things, they ignore you and carry on regardless. If you stand your ground they insist you are anti EU need to build trust and then ignore. The outcome is the same. 

Thank god we are out.  

 

Blair gives away £2.7bn to clinch EU budget deal. - 17 December 2005.

Tony Blair had already surrendered £5.5 billion in rebate cash ahead of a crucial summit in Brussels.

During fraught negotiations he offered up a further £1 billion from the rebate won by Margaret Thatcher in 1984.

Mr Blair had gambled on getting a French commitment to give up lavish farm subsidies in return.

But the final deal let French president Jacques Chirac off with just a promise of a farm spending review in 2008 - and no risk to Paris of losing its Common Agricultural Policy handouts before at least 2014.

Mr Hague declared: "Seldom in the course of European negotiations has so much been surrendered for so little.

"It is amazing how the Government have moved miles while the French have barely yielded a centimetre.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/blair-gives-away-pound-2-7bn-to-clinch-eu-budget-deal-519863.html

 

 

[Helen of Annoy]

 

56 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

The CAP is there to service the French,

 

So... with how much more your farmers are supported now when you're thank god out?

 

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Just leave this here to counter the anti CAP propeganda

 

Quote

Equity among member states

 

CAP 2004 beneficiaries

Some countries in the EU have larger agricultural sectors than others, notably France and Spain, and consequently receive more money under the CAP.^[97] Countries such as the Netherlands and the United Kingdom have particularly urbanised populations and rely very little on agriculture as part of their economy (in the United Kingdom agriculture employs 1.6% of the total workforce and in the Netherlands 2.0%). The UK therefore receives less than half what France gets, despite a similar sized economy and population.^[98] Other countries receive more benefit from different areas of the EU budget. Overall, certain countries make net contributions, notably Germany (the largest contribution overall) and the Netherlands (the biggest contribution per person), but also the UK and France. The largest per capita beneficiaries are Greece and Ireland.

Another aspect is difference between older Western European and newer Central and Eastern member states, due to transitional arrangements the latter received smaller payments. In 2013 payments per hectare were 527 euros in Greece and only 89 euros in Latvia. In compensation the newer members were allowed to provide national farm aid.^[98] In March 2018 EU agriculture ministers failed to achieve consensus on a declaration about future of CAP, with ministers of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Slovakia demanding fully equal subsidies across the union.^[99]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy#Equity_among_member_states

 

France has a larger agricultural sector than the UK so its get more of the CAP than the UK used to, what a surprise. However lets just say France produces more food - of which the UK is a net importer so receives indirect benefits from subsidized French food. Of course the Brexiters wont see it this way but when have they been interested in the facts anyway.

The CAP is far from perfect, for numerous reasons (few of them the obvious ones discussed here), but it was never a policy designed to defraud the British despite what the right wing political press have led you to believe. It set out as a policy with two intents - to ensure that hunger would never effect the continent in the way it did in the immediate post war period, and to ensure that rural communities would have the supports needed to continue living in the countryside and producing food and other viable livings. The UK is an object lesson in what happens when you don't support rural communites with agricultural workers having to live in cities and commute to their jobs in the country because they can no longer afford to compete with the city dwellers moving out to the country.

Br Cornelius

Edited October 2, 2021 by Br Cornelius