Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

The Eclipse of Europe


WVK
 Share

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Because I'm not an extremist. 

That's nice, but that American cult of free enterprise with no social security is considered pretty extremist in Europe. 

Edited by Helen of Annoy
yeah, I went off topic too. shoo, back on topic.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

So far it often was, but it doesn't have to be. Tribal societies are collectivist, call it communist if you will. Communism is not a dirty word, it's an abused word.  

So they say time and again *sigh* .  Notably tribal societies are small, insular and people live short lives usually ending in violence.  Communism so far is an abusive system.  Let's just leave it in the past, at some point philosophies don't deserve another chance.  100Million murdered in the name of the collective should be that point if you ask me. 

 

Edited by OverSword
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

That's nice, but that American cult of free enterprise with no social security is considered pretty extremist in Europe. 

I don't believe in that.  That's is the result of a sick, corrupt government that needs to be replaced.

edit:  We pay social security taxes that supports people that can't and those who are too old to work.

Edited by OverSword
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Br Cornelius
34 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Also right wing politics believes in free enterprise, private ownership and favors traditional (tried and true) social values.  Left politics believes in forced egalitarianism public ownership and controlled enterprise and fluid social values.  Time and again the right proves it works better for both the individual and the whole regardless of the lefts best intentions.

Rubbish. Ask the Scandinavians and Germans - booth examples of Liberal left leaning democracies with far higher levels of customer satisfaction than the USA.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, OverSword said:

So they say time and again *sigh* .  Notably tribal societies are small, insular and people live short lives usually ending in violence.  Communism so far is an abusive system.  Let's just leave it in the past, at some point philosophies don't deserve another chance.  100Million murdered in the name of the collective should be that point if you ask me. 

edit:  We pay social security taxes that supports people that can't and those who are too old to work.

 

28 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I don't believe in that.  That's is the result of a sick, corrupt government that needs to be replaced.

 

But both you and I, we're descendants of people who lived in tribal societies. It changed only relatively recently (historically speaking). And it changed gradually, the modern society didn't fall from the sky one day. My particular tradition still values the same tribal qualities, such as honesty, selflessness, reliability, readiness to sacrifice for the family/tribe (tribe is today called nation, though my - like many other - nation is a combination of several tribes that do not share the exact origin), while despising cowardice, greed or malice. 

When totalitarianism is wrongly equated with communism, the door is opened for rightwing totalitarianism. Nazism, for example, was sold to many otherwise sane people because it poised itself as the bulwark against communism. It's what nearly destroyed my country. Yes, it was communists that lead the resistance. Not because they wanted leftwing terror afterwards. I'll keep this short, I'm just trying to draw your attention to the fact that liberal is not necessarily the same as the left, the left not necessarily the same as totalitarian and not necessarily the same as left. Not a typo, left is not always left. I know, I lived in an example of that. 

Fortunately, I can change my government in the elections. The **** floats, that's true. But the reason why humans live in organized societies is that we're social animals and it only works if we cooperate. Revolutions and anarchies are messy, deadly and they bring up even worse individuals in power. 

All in all, I'm not worried with communism at all. We're still light years away from Star Trek. 

 

Baaaack on topic. 

One of the things I like about EUrope is solidarity. It's also one of the things that makes it stronger daily. Contrary to hilarious theories seen in the original post, that started this thread. Remember that? 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

Rubbish. Ask the Scandinavians and Germans - booth examples of Liberal left leaning democracies with far higher levels of customer satisfaction than the USA.

Br Cornelius

Democracies?  No.  They are republics that democratically elect representatives and constitutional monarchies. They do lean left but notably lack the key ingredient to be socialists.  Businesses are privately owned and they are all capitalists..  People just LOVE holding that same false example up that you just  did.  

Edited by OverSword
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

When totalitarianism is wrongly equated with communism, the door is opened for rightwing totalitarianism

Do you have an example of communism that isn't totalitarian?  The thing communists seem to have in common is that the state has ultimate and total control, thus the totalitarianism label.

 

24 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

But both you and I, we're descendants of people who lived in tribal societies. It changed only relatively recently (historically speaking). And it changed gradually, the modern society didn't fall from the sky one day. My particular tradition still values the same tribal qualities, such as honesty, selflessness, reliability, readiness to sacrifice for the family/tribe (tribe is today called nation, though my - like many other - nation is a combination of several tribes that do not share the exact origin), while despising cowardice, greed or malice. 

Really you're describing family more than tribe.  Notably the larger the type of society you live in, with the tribe being the smallest the more peaceful and long your life tends to be.  Tribes tend to participate in violence with the tribe in the next valley whereas we live in a society where the next valley is run by the same government as our own.  Sadly here and in many parts of Europe and the rest of the world tribalism is on the rise.  The price of too much diversity I'm afraid.

 

So what's this thread about?  :D  Sorry I will stop derailing until BR says something to me again.

Edited by OverSword
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/30/2021 at 12:09 PM, Tatetopa said:

 Supply chains and shortages respect no political boundaries.  Over the last 100 years, we have built a very complex intertwined and interdependent world. When it becomes unstable it affects everybody.

True.  All the more reason to ask why they are intentionally burning it all down over a >2% CFR viral infection. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Do you have an example of communism that isn't totalitarian?  The thing communists seem to have in common is that the state has ultimate and total control, thus the totalitarianism label.

 

Really you're describing family more than tribe.  Notably the larger the type of society you live in, with the tribe being the smallest the more peaceful and long your life tends to be.  Tribes tend to participate in violence with the tribe in the next valley whereas we live in a society where the next valley is run by the same government as our own.  Sadly here and in many parts of Europe and the rest of the world tribalism is on the rise.  The price of too much diversity I'm afraid.

 

So what's this thread about?  :D  Sorry I will stop derailing until BR says something to me again.

By the way, the word "republic" comes from "res publica", Latin for public matter, public affair, so a republic is by definition a democracy - the word which comes from Greek and means the rule of the people. 

A republic where democratic procedures were distorted and falsified is not a republic anymore. 

I've seen you claim republics are not democracies before and that's just wrong. Maybe applies to the US by some logic I'm not aware of, but my country is definitely a republic and a democracy by our Constitution.  

 

There was no communist country yet. Even that, what you use to falsely describe as the proof of totalitarian nature of communism were socialist in name and totalitarian in practice countries. 

Just look at fat comrade at the top of any communist party and the starving population and you'll notice it's not even socialism. It's feudalism with bizarrely marxist rhetoric. 

Yes, my family, my extended family, then my even more extended family which is also my tribe and that's why it was possible to care for everyone like you care for your own self. It's actually true Christianity and true communism that are very much alike :D Seriously. Both misused to construct totalitarian hells on earth. 

Tribalism is something entirely else. But you're not stupid, you're just apparently like nitpicking with me. Tribalism is isolationist, to cut this short and as such the opposite of the mindset and the process that made my nation out of several tribes and is making European identity out of several nations. Though the European identity already exists. 

 

You're stealing my haiku time :angry:

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's  a new twist to the convoluted lives of us in Europe: the UK govenment is trying to persuade German residents without qualifications to drive our HGVs to help us out and save Christmas:Germans with no HGV experience asked to drive lorries amid UK fuel crisis | Supply chain crisis | The Guardian

Brexit, the gift that keeps taking.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

By the way, the word "republic" comes from "res publica", Latin for public matter, public affair, so a republic is by definition a democracy - the word which comes from Greek and means the rule of the people. 

A republic where democratic procedures were distorted and falsified is not a republic anymore. 

I've seen you claim republics are not democracies before and that's just wrong. Maybe applies to the US by some logic I'm not aware of, but my country is definitely a republic and a democracy by our Constitution.  

 

There was no communist country yet. Even that, what you use to falsely describe as the proof of totalitarian nature of communism were socialist in name and totalitarian in practice countries. 

Just look at fat comrade at the top of any communist party and the starving population and you'll notice it's not even socialism. It's feudalism with bizarrely marxist rhetoric. 

Yes, my family, my extended family, then my even more extended family which is also my tribe and that's why it was possible to care for everyone like you care for your own self. It's actually true Christianity and true communism that are very much alike :D Seriously. Both misused to construct totalitarian hells on earth. 

Tribalism is something entirely else. But you're not stupid, you're just apparently like nitpicking with me. Tribalism is isolationist, to cut this short and as such the opposite of the mindset and the process that made my nation out of several tribes and is making European identity out of several nations. Though the European identity already exists. 

 

You're stealing my haiku time :angry:

All true, but saying there were no communist countries is like saying there were no capitalist countries.  The purists of each system will say "But they didn't do it right so it's not communism/capitalism".  We have/had both.  So far the communists tend to be worse than the capitalists.

The difference between a republic and a democracy is that in an actual democracy the majority rules in a republic laws trump majorities.  The USA allegedly is a representative republic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The EU... I can't work.out if they can't hear or, they can hear but cannot change. 

The Brexit remoaners.... I can't work out if they can't hear or, they just don't get what the majority already understand clearly.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Br Cornelius
44 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Democracies?  No.  They are republics that democratically elect representatives and constitutional monarchies. They do lean left but notably lack the key ingredient to be socialists.  Businesses are privately owned and they are all capitalists..  People just LOVE holding that same false example up that you just  did.  

You imagine that this is not what left leaning liberals actually define as their ideal society. No one here is advocating for your comical caricature of what the left represents, if you build straw men to defeat then don't be surprised when you aren't taken remotely seriously in your analysis. In case you didn't get it - there are no communists here in this discussion - plenty of democratic socialist though.

Br Cornelius

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Br Cornelius
3 minutes ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

The EU... I can't work.out if they can't hear or, they can hear but cannot change. 

The Brexit remoaners.... I can't work out if they can't hear or, they just don't get what the majority already understand clearly.

 

Can't workout if you can write a coherent sentence.

 

Br Cornelius

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

No one here is advocating for your comical caricature of what the left represents

People on UM do it all the time, so don't say no one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, The Silver Shroud said:

Here's  a new twist to the convoluted lives of us in Europe: the UK govenment is trying to persuade German residents without qualifications to drive our HGVs to help us out and save Christmas:Germans with no HGV experience asked to drive lorries amid UK fuel crisis | Supply chain crisis | The Guardian

Brexit, the gift that keeps taking.

Forgive me for laughing, I'm not laughing because common people have to suffer, that's not funny at all, but the rest is just... hilarious. 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Br Cornelius said:

Can't workout if you can write a coherent sentence.

 

Br Cornelius

Cool, go get some help then.

While you're at it, bore off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Br Cornelius
Just now, OverSword said:

People on UM do it all the time, so don't say no one.

I have never seen a communist on UM. If you imagine anyone left of Thatcher or Regan a communist you win your argument - but lose your credibility.

 

Br Cornelius

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Yes but they were the product of a collectivist, or left, philosophy and they were all killed for the ultimate greater good.

 You can associate left with collectivist I suppose.  Liberal is not equivalent.  Liberal is sex drugs and rock and roll for all.  It is rights and freedom for all as long as people do not infringe on other people's rights or corporate entities exploit individuals.  Liberal does not require everybody be the same, just that everybody has equal rights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Br Cornelius
Just now, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Cool, go get some help then.

While you're at it, bore off.

Or maybe you could elucidate on your cryptic statement as it made no sense as written.
 

Br Cornelius

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Br Cornelius said:

Or maybe you could elucidate on your cryptic statement as it made no sense as written.
 

Br Cornelius

Yawn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Br Cornelius said:

I have never seen a communist on UM. If you imagine anyone left of Thatcher or Regan a communist you win your argument - but lose your credibility.

 

Br Cornelius

Haven't seen you in the US political section for years so maybe you haven't.  I'm not going to name names because that would probably be trolling and honestly I try very hard to avoid those idiots and don't want to call them down on me.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, and then said:

True.  All the more reason to ask why they are intentionally burning it all down over a >2% CFR viral infection. 

Sorry, Is it nationalism that is threatening to divide Europe as the article says or a viral infection?

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Br Cornelius
2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Haven't seen you in the US political section for years so maybe you haven't.  I'm not going to name names because that would probably be trolling and honestly I try very hard to avoid those idiots and don't want to call them down on me.  

I very much doubt that people you label as communists are actual communists.
I bet you call Bernie Sanders a communist as well.

American politics has drifted so far to the right that I imagine its quite difficult for an American to be objective in such matters.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.