The Eclipse of Europe

[+OverSword]

4 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

You can associate left with collectivist I suppose.  Liberal is not equivalent. 

I agree it's really not one or the other but am bowing down to popular usage.  Most people today have substituted the word left for liberal and right for conservative.

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

I very much doubt that people you label as communists are actual communists.
I bet you call Bernie Sanders a communist as well.

American politics has drifted so far to the right that I imagine its quite difficult for an American to be objective in such matters.

Br Cornelius

That's ridiculous, you don't know what you're talking about.  JFK was more right than any politician currently in the federal government.  The USA has drifted left.  You're so far left that a centrist appears to be right to you.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

I agree it's really not one or the other but am bowing down to popular usage.  Most people today have substituted the word left for liberal and right for conservative.

In the USA maybe. Leftists tend to have liberal attitudes but the two are not the same. In Europe if you are politically left you are called such, liberal for left is an American peculiarity.

Br Cornelius

[Guest Br Cornelius]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

That's ridiculous, you don't know what you're talking about.  JFK was more right than any politician currently in the federal government.  The USA has drifted left.  You're so far left that a centrist appears to be right to you.

Such is the consequence of four decades of right wing talk shows telling you that America is one step away from communism. It ain't so.
The New Deal was a fairly run of the mill social democratic policy but would be almost impossible in America today.

Br Cornelius

[+OverSword]

Just now, Br Cornelius said:

In the USA maybe. Leftists tend to have liberal attitudes but the two are not the same. In Europe if you are politically left you are called such, liberal for left is an American peculiarity.

Br Cornelius

It's not a peculiarity it's a purposeful twisting of a definition used to create tribalism.  It's part of the trap that created an unbreakable two party system.

[+OverSword]

Just now, Br Cornelius said:

Such is the consequence of four decades of right wing talk shows telling you that America is one step away from communism. It ain't so.
The New Deal was a fairly run of the mill social democratic policy but would be almost impossible in America today.

Br Cornelius

That's demonstrably false, the so called left, for more socialism has dominated the government for quite some time with two year breaks here and there.  Ignore the man behind the curtain the power is is in the senate. Can't sign a law that doesn't get put on your desk.  You watch too much TV.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Lets clarify this Oversword - Bernie Sanders - Communist or Social Democrat ?

Br Cornelius

[Guest Br Cornelius]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

That's demonstrably false, the so called left, for more socialism has dominated the government for quite some time with two year breaks here and there.  Ignore the man behind the curtain the power is is in the senate. Can't sign a law that doesn't get put on your desk.  You watch too much TV.

The Democratic party is not a Social Democratic party by any definition that would hold water in Europe for the last 100years.

Br Cornelius

[+OverSword]

3 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

Lets clarify this Oversword - Bernie Sanders - Communist or Social Democrat ?

Br Cornelius

Socialist.  Elected as an independent not a democrat, because socialist is a dirty word and he probably wouldn't have been elected had he used the actual term.  Switched to the democratic party twice in order to attempt to use their deep pockets to run for president and in so doing his popularity had the effect of moving the party line further left or risk losing Bernie Bros votes.  You are asking a simplistic question but like American politics, the answer is not simple.

The truth is that there are some in office now who are listed as either democrat or republican but should be listed as socialist or libertarian.  fear that one of those two will gain complete control keeps them living a lie and has confused low information voters as to what the parties are actually supposed to stand for allowing corrupt power mongers to perpetually run the show.

[+OverSword]

11 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

The Democratic party is not a Social Democratic party by any definition that would hold water in Europe for the last 100years.

Br Cornelius

Because they are kept in check out of fear of alienating their ever shrinking centrist's.  And because European countries are in general more homogenous and therefore easier to gain consensus over.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Socialist.  Elected as an independent not a democrat, because socialist is a dirty word and he probably wouldn't have been elected had he used the actual term.  Switched to the democratic party twice in order to attempt to use their deep pockets to run for president and in so doing his popularity had the effect of moving the party line further left or risk losing Bernie Bros votes.  You are asking a simplistic question but like American politics, the answer is not simple.

The truth is that there are some in office now who are listed as either democrat or republican but should be listed as socialist or libertarian.  fear that one of those two will gain complete control keeps them living a lie and has confused low information voters as to what the parties are actually supposed to stand for allowing corrupt power mongers to perpetually run the show.

Bernie is a middle of the road Social Democrat by European standards, its telling that he resides on the hard left fringe in America.
 

Br Cornelius

[+OverSword]

3 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

Bernie is a middle of the road Social Democrat by European standards, its telling that he resides on the hard left fringe in America.
 

Br Cornelius

Based on what do you call him middle of the road compared to these European standards?  

[Guest Br Cornelius]

7 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Based on what do you call him middle of the road compared to these European standards?  

His policy advocacy. Nothing he says would raise an eyebrow if proposed in Europe.

Quote

Others, such as the Nobel prize-winning economist Paul Krugman, say that Sanders is not so much a socialist as a social democrat.

“He doesn’t want to nationalise our major industries and replace markets with central planning; he has expressed admiration, not for Venezuela, but for Denmark,” Krugman wrote recently. “He’s basically what Europeans would call a social democrat.” Sanders’ use of the term socialist, he added, was “mainly about personal branding, with a dash of glee at shocking the bourgeoisie”. 

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2020/03/bernie-sanders-socialist-or-social-democrat

Your "centerist" reference point has been pulled to the right and you cannot even see how much your country has changed since the 1970's. It was Nixon who introduced many of the progressive policies which current Republicans are trying to abolish.

Br Cornelius

Edited October 1, 2021 by Br Cornelius

[+OverSword]

3 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

His policy advocacy. Nothing he says would raise an eyebrow if proposed in Europe.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2020/03/bernie-sanders-socialist-or-social-democrat



Br Cornelius

Come on man.  You have to do better than that.  What European policy would get Bernie's panties in a bunch if he's just even left compared to a European politician?  I have a feeling your just full of crap.

[Helen of Annoy]

10 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Because they are kept in check out of fear of alienating their ever shrinking centrist's.  And because European countries are in general more homogenous and therefore easier to gain consensus over.

Well, yes, in any European country, it would be considered insane and treasonous to say the equivalent of "I'd rather be Russian than a Democrat". 

Europeans generally are more homogeneous in that context.  

But I can't think of any EUropean country that had their political life reduced to two parties only. There's no homogeneous political life, there's variety of parties and typically they need to form coalitions in order to put government together or successfully pass laws. 

I also can't imagine any EUropean country where the idea of alternative to elected parliaments and governments could gain any attention, apart from few lunatics on eff-book. There's no alternative to democracy. Unless you think totalitarianism or anarchy are viable alternatives. They're not. 

Libertarian fantasies are not realistic. At all. What Europeans would typically ask you is what I keep asking you: Who puts housefires out in a libertarian (non)society? Who organizes anti-epidemic measures, who enforces quarantines, who keeps hospitals running (you forgot, but I remember asking exactly that, right before this Covid crap appeared)?  

[Guest Br Cornelius]

2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Come on man.  You have to do better than that.  What European policy would get Bernie's panties in a bunch if he's just even left compared to a European politician?  I have a feeling your just full of crap.

Sorry but your statement doesn't actually make any sense. i really cannot understand what you are attempting to say here.

 

Br Cornelius

[Helen of Annoy]

1 minute ago, Br Cornelius said:

Sorry but your statement doesn't actually make any sense. i really cannot understand what you are attempting to say here.

 

Br Cornelius

I think that OS is trying to say he's been drinking since page 4 and it's starting to show now  

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

What Europeans would typically ask you is what I keep asking you: Who puts housefires out in a libertarian (non)society?

You always ask that and what I always tell you.  You are representing an extremist view.  Any philosophy can be made to look bad taken to extreme's.  I don't believe we shouldn't pay for roads or a social safety net or publicly funded schools, etc. 

[Guest Br Cornelius]

3 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Well, yes, in any European country, it would be considered insane and treasonous to say the equivalent of "I'd rather be Russian than a Democrat". 

Europeans generally are more homogeneous in that context.  

But I can't think of any EUropean country that had their political life reduced to two parties only. There's no homogeneous political life, there's variety of parties and typically they need to form coalitions in order to put government together or successfully pass laws. 

I also can't imagine any EUropean country where the idea of alternative to elected parliaments and governments could gain any attention, apart from few lunatics on eff-book. There's no alternative to democracy. Unless you think totalitarianism or anarchy are viable alternatives. They're not. 

Libertarian fantasies are not realistic. At all. What Europeans would typically ask you is what I keep asking you: Who puts housefires out in a libertarian (non)society? Who organizes anti-epidemic measures, who enforces quarantines, who keeps hospitals running (you forgot, but I remember asking exactly that, right before this Covid crap appeared)?  

Couldn't have said it better myself. I keep asking Libertarians to quantify "small government", No more public roads ? No more public hospitals ? No national army ? No public Schools ? No banking regulation or national currency ? It all becomes a bit vague when you ask them to quantify their limits.

Br Cornelius

[+OverSword]

4 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

Sorry but your statement doesn't actually make any sense. i really cannot understand what you are attempting to say here.

 

Br Cornelius

You said bernie would just be an average old politician in Europe, So since he would be a centrist to you, what Europeans are left of him?  

[+OverSword]

5 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I think that OS is trying to say he's been drinking since page 4 and it's starting to show now  

I'm at work, only on my third drink 

[Guest Br Cornelius]

In the last national Election in the UK people were asked to rank the policy platforms of all the parties, the public overwhelmingly agreed with the policy platform of the Jeremy Corbyn and rejected the policy platform of the Johnson government. The thing that put them off voting for the policies they wanted is that the media portrayed the Labour party as been hard right socialist. This bogy man word was enough to get them to reject their self interest.

Br Cornelius

[Helen of Annoy]

5 minutes ago, OverSword said:

You always ask that and what I always tell you.  You are representing an extremist view.  Any philosophy can be made to look bad taken to extreme's.  I don't believe we shouldn't pay for roads or a social safety net or publicly funded schools, etc. 

That's not an answer, that's evading the question. 

But even if you'd get enough votes, the first thing your representatives would do is not to take their newly won position away from themselves. Or the second. That's the last thing they'd do. 

In other words, you're still so naive.  

Edited October 1, 2021 by Helen of Annoy
forgot how to english

[Guest Br Cornelius]

3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

You said bernie would just be an average old politician in Europe, So since he would be a centrist to you, what Europeans are left of him?  

Most parties are broadly centerist in Europe. There are no parties in the electable league which I would call leftist since the few parties such as UK Labour and some Spanish parties were defeated.
 

Br Cornelius

[Helen of Annoy]

4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

You said bernie would just be an average old politician in Europe, So since he would be a centrist to you, what Europeans are left of him?  

We've got New Worker's Party or something like that   may they forgive me for not looking up right now.

And the right wing in my part of EU is right by their perception of everyday life, attitude to religion etc., but they're actually left for an American, with health care, parental leaves, education, subsidies and such.