Ex concentration camp secretary tries to flee

[+Desertrat56]

6 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Listening to similar blathering is the reason why that grandma screwed up when she was 18 or so years old. What's your excuse? Aren't you too old for supremacist fairytales? 

I think he is too old to still be living in his mother's basement too.  That is what his posts remind me of, someone who lives in a basement and never gets out.

[Duke Wellington]

10 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Listening to similar blathering is the reason why that grandma screwed up when she was 18 or so years old. What's your excuse? Aren't you too old for supremacist fairytales? 

What do you mean, my grandmother?

Lets put it this way. If we can dismantle the EU or at least divide it in two, then there is no way it can happen.

[Helen of Annoy]

17 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

What do you mean, my grandmother?

I wouldn't offend that woman like that. She is possibly guilty of extremely serious crime, but there's a chance it wasn't voluntary or that she literally didn't understand what she's doing. 

On the other hand...

 

17 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Lets put it this way. If we can dismantle the EU or at least divide it in two, then there is no way it can happen.

All of you should seek professional help. 

But I love me some morbid humour so let me put it this way: you can't organize petrol transport or farming without Eastern EUropeans, but you'd dismantle EU? 

Sunshine, someone used you as the tool and dismantled your greater something while you were fantasizing about always winning. 

[Duke Wellington]

10 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I wouldn't offend that woman like that. She is possibly guilty of extremely serious crime, but there's a chance it wasn't voluntary or that she literally didn't understand what she's doing. 

On the other hand...

All of you should seek professional help. 

But I love me some morbid humour so let me put it this way: you can't organize petrol transport or farming without Eastern EUropeans, but you'd dismantle EU? 

Sunshine, someone used you as the tool and dismantled your greater something while you were fantasizing about always winning. 

You have been subjected to so much EU propaganda you don`t even see yourself as a vassal of the new Franco-Prussian Empire. How many votes does your country have in Brussels? It is so little you will never get any representation at that level of government. Policy is primarily made for Franco-Prussia, with a few scraps thrown the way of the Italians and Spanish.

Britain will sort itself out, we only left yesterday.

[Helen of Annoy]

14 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

You have been subjected to so much EU propaganda you don`t even see yourself as a vassal of the new Franco-Prussian Empire. How many votes does your country have in Brussels? It is so little you will never get any representation at that level of government. Policy is primarily made for Franco-Prussia, with a few scraps thrown the way of the Italians and Spanish.

Britain will sort itself out, we only left yesterday.

I'm happy with the number of Croatian representatives in the EU Parliament. It wouldn't be right if my country had more, because it wouldn't be proportional then. It's how democracy works. 

The number of representatives of a country in the EU Parliament is in no way an indicator how many functionaries will be from that particular country.

You can start informing yourself here, albeit it's a bit late: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_the_Council_of_the_European_Union

Regarding scraps, I'm literary positively shocked with substantial aid of the EU for my country. I didn't expect it to be so much. I guess there's some hefty outpour of money that doesn't exist anymore, so the EU suddenly has a lot more finances free to be invested. 

 

Back on topic. 

Some people are compassionate because that grandma was a Nazi when she was young. Others are compassionate despite that fact. 

So I begin to understand why the trial is necessary after all. Her sacrifice today, which consist of taking part in documenting the truth, is small compared to the debt she has to repay and the benefit it might bring to future generations.  

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I'm happy with the number of Croatian representatives in the EU Parliament. It wouldn't be right if my country had more, because it wouldn't be proportional then. It's how democracy works. 

The number of representatives of a country in the EU Parliament is in no way an indicator how many functionaries will be from that particular country.

You can start informing yourself here, albeit it's a bit late: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_the_Council_of_the_European_Union

Regarding scraps, I'm literary positively shocked with substantial aid of the EU for my country. I didn't expect it to be so much. I guess there's some hefty outpour of money that doesn't exist anymore, so the EU suddenly has a lot more finances free to be invested. 

Back on topic. 

Some people are compassionate because that grandma was a Nazi when she was young. Others are compassionate despite that fact. 

So I begin to understand why the trial is necessary after all. Her sacrifice today, which consist of taking part in documenting the truth, is small compared to the debt she has to repay and the benefit it might bring to future generations.  

So with so many votes in Brussels how will your country ever get the policies it needs?

Its about the needs of Franco-Prussia, not Croatians.

[Helen of Annoy]

22 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

So with so many votes in Brussels how will your country ever get the policies it needs?

Its about the needs of Franco-Prussia, not Croatians.

You don't get the very concept of cooperation? 

There would be no EU if all member countries had no common interests. There's no need to force or scam your particular short-term advantage because everyone gains much more if they work together instead of against each other. 

My country has no special needs.   

Is it really possible that you can't understand the concept of common interest? Do your parents ever let you out of the house? Play some team sports, maybe? 

Besides, this hilarious Franco-Prussia stupidity of an expression might work with a portion of the English, whose supremacy myth includes strong aversion against French and Germans. There's no such aversion among the sane people. France or Germany have no negative meaning for a sane person, English or Polish or Bulgarian.    

 

More on topic, don't you wish it was possible to be so objective about history in your country, as it is in Germany? 

Because having facts instead of myths can prevent some horrible mistakes. Like kicking actual workforce out of your country   

What did you expect? That people will beg for short-term visas?   

[Duke Wellington]

23 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

You don't get the very concept of cooperation? 

There would be no EU if all member countries had no common interests. There's no need to force or scam your particular short-term advantage because everyone gains much more if they work together instead of against each other. 

My country has no special needs.   

Is it really possible that you can't understand the concept of common interest? Do your parents ever let you out of the house? Play some team sports, maybe? 

Besides, this hilarious Franco-Prussia stupidity of an expression might work with a portion of the English, whose supremacy myth includes strong aversion against French and Germans. There's no such aversion among the sane people. France or Germany have no negative meaning for a sane person, English or Polish or Bulgarian.    

More on topic, don't you wish it was possible to be so objective about history in your country, as it is in Germany? 

Because having facts instead of myths can prevent some horrible mistakes. Like kicking actual workforce out of your country   

What did you expect? That people will beg for short-term visas?   

So what has the EU personally gone out of its way to do to benefit Croatia? Not a lot, you are a tiny insignificant nation to them. France and Germany are the primary interest and where it is at. You are not its common interest, your interests dont count, you have no weight with such a tiny number of MEPs in Brussels. What actually matters is serving Franco-Prussian interests., hail your new masters!

Coronavirus made the EU workers go home. We didnt need to do anything lol.

[+Hammerclaw]

 HaMossad leModiʿin uleTafkidim Meyuḥadim, what will they do after they're all dead, track them down, exhume them and try them, posthumously? Harass and persecute their descendants, perhaps? In the meantime, the rank and file Wehrmacht soldiers who committed atrocities under orders, or from being conditioned such things were acceptable, were passed over and allowed to live normal lives. Ninety-six years old. Have they tracked down all the camp busboys and cooks, too?

Edited October 1, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[Helen of Annoy]

12 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

So what has the EU personally gone out of its way to do to benefit Croatia? Not a lot, you are a tiny insignificant nation to them. France and Germany are the primary interest and where it is at. You are not its common interest, your interests dont count, you have no weight with such a tiny number of MEPs in Brussels. What actually matters is serving Franco-Prussian interests., hail your new masters!

Coronavirus made the EU workers go home. We didnt need to do anything lol.

I'm genuinely sorry for the apparent cognitive issues you've got.

But I'll answer your questions, because it's a chance to highlight just how bizarre is the worldview you're trying to advertise.

 

The EU helped my country modernize, start serious fight against corruption, it gave my country's youth access to education and it reconnected citizens of my country with other EUropeans. Just a handful of things that come to mind first.  

Being officially an EUropean again, after decades of de-identification and violent isolation (it was even mild for my country, proper Warsaw pact countries suffered much more) feels so good. I'm not a suspect in the eyes of regime anymore, for crossing the border. I'm a neighbour dropping by.

But what do you know about it? You literary don't understand friendship. For example, I'll never forget first Czech tourists, almost uncomfortable because they were visibly poor. Now their economy is better and healthier than Croatian and I'm happy because of them. Go, neighbours, be even better. It doesn't prevent my country to finally starts using all the ridiculously rich resources God threw at us. 

EUropean governments - even those who toy with antiEU ideas to suck up to their domestic troglodyte base - are able to understand that stability and trust are the best economic environment possible. Hostility and chaos are good for scammers and profiteers only. 

Which is something the naive part of your voters will have to discover on their own example. 

Because no, it's not Corona throwing workforce out of your country. No EU country suffers any shortage or chaos. It's just the freshly Brexited UK that can't get goods to customers, or keep its farming functional. It's the bizarrely chaotic and incomprehensible decisions of Brexiters, who act like they genuinely thought everyone exists only to serve them. You fell into the same trap Nazis once fell - you started believing you're in fact better than others. 

 

So notice that grandma's example. She chose to believe in supremacy myth. Yes, she was so young, but so was Sophie Scholl.

Being young or permanently stupid is not an universal excuse. Even those who have no conscience to bother them, will be still bothered by the consequences. 

[Helen of Annoy]

12 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

 HaMossad leModiʿin uleTafkidim Meyuḥadim, what will they do after they're all dead, track them down, exhume them and try them, posthumously? Harass and persecute their descendants, perhaps? In the meantime, the rank and file Wehrmacht soldiers who committed atrocities under orders, or from being conditioned such things were acceptable, were passed over and allowed to live normal lives. Ninety-six years old. Have they tracked down all the camp busboys and cooks, too?

There's big difference between a secretary and a cook. Between Wehrmacht and the SS. Between genuine, sane compassion for an elderly person and the need to excuse the inexcusable.   

[+Hammerclaw]

7 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

There's big difference between a secretary and a cook. Between Wehrmacht and the SS. Between genuine, sane compassion for an elderly person and the need to excuse the inexcusable.   

How is it that being a secretary to mass murderers is inexcusable, but marching hundreds of Jews into a forest in Poland and executing them is, for instance? This sort of atrocity was committed countless times by regular German army occupation troops. Condemnation and forgiveness is arbitrary and selective. It's not her fault she wasn't a rocket scientist. Hatred, however justifiable, is not a virtue.

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

How is it that being a secretary to mass murderers is inexcusable, but marching hundreds of Jews into a forest in Poland and executing them is, for instance? This sort of atrocity was committed countless times by regular German army occupation troops. Condemnation and forgiveness is arbitrary and selective. It's not her fault she wasn't a rocket scientist. Hatred, however justifiable, is not a virtue.

Don't project hatred on me.  

My first reaction was that a grandma of that age shouldn't be brought to court. But the least she can do is have her testimony about the events officially recorded, which is what this trial seems to be about. 

Compassion for an elderly person is natural and sane, no matter who she was almost 80 years ago. What do we know who she is today? It could be anything, from unrepentant to living in personal hell of guilt for 80 years. If I had no compassion for her, even if she's unrepentant, then I'd be like her in her youth. 

Being a secretary to mass murderers is clearly inexcusable if you can be bothered to imagine yourself typing, sipping coffee maybe, while the political and ethnic "enemies" are being tortured, starved and murdered at the distance that allows you to actually smell what's going on. You know, blood, ****, sweat, all caked in dirt for months. 

So she knew. It's impossible to be so monumentally stupid that you can't notice you're an accessory to mass murder if you were working at the site of mass murder. 

And being a young office worker, she could have simply gave up. Decided it's her time to spend more time cooking. She had a way out. 

Unlike the soldiers who could choose between obeying orders or dying an ethical martyr death. People who think they would die out of ethical reasons are numerous, but those who actually can do that are rare. So I don't blame a soldier who ends up committing a war crime with the same intensity I blame those who brought him into such situation. 

Which is why I think it's not logical to propose soldiers committing war crimes somehow exculpates a secretary at the site specifically set up for the purpose of extermination of human beings. 

Extermination of human beings. 

See, that's the inexcusable part.   

[Wepwawet]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

she wasn't a rocket scientist.

Because if she had been, then she would have gotten a free ticket to the US and a new life, and not be prosecuted for anything to do with the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp complex.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Wepwawet

[Helen of Annoy]

So what are you two suggesting? That because the US has no scruples sometimes no one else should have them?  

[toast]

2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

How is it that being a secretary to mass murderers is inexcusable, but marching hundreds of Jews into a forest in Poland and executing them is, for instance?

Neither is excusable, what is the point of this asymmetrical comparison? BTW: My Lay? My Lay/Nixon?

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Don't project hatred on me.  

My first reaction was that a grandma of that age shouldn't be brought to court. But the least she can do is have her testimony about the events officially recorded, which is what this trial seems to be about. 

Compassion for an elderly person is natural and sane, no matter who she was almost 80 years ago. What do we know who she is today? It could be anything, from unrepentant to living in personal hell of guilt for 80 years. If I had no compassion for her, even if she's unrepentant, then I'd be like her in her youth. 

Being a secretary to mass murderers is clearly inexcusable if you can be bothered to imagine yourself typing, sipping coffee maybe, while the political and ethnic "enemies" are being tortured, starved and murdered at the distance that allows you to actually smell what's going on. You know, blood, ****, sweat, all caked in dirt for months. 

So she knew. It's impossible to be so monumentally stupid that you can't notice you're an accessory to mass murder if you were working at the site of mass murder. 

And being a young office worker, she could have simply gave up. Decided it's her time to spend more time cooking. She had a way out. 

Unlike the soldiers who could choose between obeying orders or dying an ethical martyr death. People who think they would die out of ethical reasons are numerous, but those who actually can do that are rare. So I don't blame a soldier who ends up committing a war crime with the same intensity I blame those who brought him into such situation. 

Which is why I think it's not logical to propose soldiers committing war crimes somehow exculpates a secretary at the site specifically set up for the purpose of extermination of human beings. 

Extermination of human beings. 

See, that's the inexcusable part.   

I think when we try to see a difference between war and extermination camps we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, between exterminating Jews in the field and in set locations. The dead can tell no difference. War is cruelty--there's no way to refine it. Don't get me wrong, the vindictive, judgmental side of me agrees with you whole-heartedly. I'm quite familiar with that side of circumstance. As an intellectual exercise, I always explore the other side. As always, a pleasure to talk to you and thanks for your kindness and understanding. Kindness doesn't cost a penny, but it's worth is without measure.      John

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, toast said:

Neither is excusable, what is the point of this asymmetrical comparison? BTW: My Lay? My Lay/Nixon?

Jews were exterminated in concentration camps; most Jews were executed in the field by the German Army, not the Waffen SS.  Are you saying there's a right way and a wrong way to exterminate Jews; that a girl typing memos is more guilty that the private pulling the trigger? Was firebombing Hamburg and Dresden, war crimes?

[aztek]

As an American of Russian/Jewish decent, both sides of my ancestors have bad history with Nazi Germany,  but i still think this whole trial is a pointless show of virtue signaling, those truly responsible were dealt with by Nurnberg,  odessa and later mossad.  There were jew prisoners working in those camp for nazis, killing other jews, so we can understand the concept of having no other choice but die. even for an 18 years old german girl.  

 

[thedutchiedutch]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:07 AM, The Silver Shroud said:

It was terribly dangerous to speak out against the Nazis: beatings, torture, concentration camps, even guillotine.It was much safer to pretend you knew nothing and hope it would blow over.

White Rose - Wikipedia

 

It probably wasn't easy at all but it wasn't easy as well for the Polish Resistance, the French Resistance and the Dutch Resistance etc. etc. but at least they stood up against the oppressive regime. I never forget the stories of my grand parents and my parents about what they had to endure during 5 years of Nazi Germany occupation. They slowly starved the Dutch to death. No sympathy, no mercy. I am NOT sorry for those who contributed to this massacre. One day you are going to get punished, whether you are 18 or 96. I don't care. 

Take a look at this link : https://www.jstor.org/stable/1429971

Edited October 2, 2021 by thedutchiedutch

[toast]

7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Jews were exterminated in concentration camps; most Jews were executed in the field by the German Army, not the Waffen SS. 

I have no idea what this has to do with my comment.

Quote

Are you saying there's a right way and a wrong way to exterminate Jews; that a girl typing memos is more guilty that the private pulling the trigger?

Once again: neither is excusable, what is the point of this asymmetrical comparison? And, she wasnt just the memo lady, she had full insight into the processes of the Stutthof KZ and Auschwitz as well. Please dont forget, its not determined yet if she is guilty in the sense of the indictment which is accessory to murder and its the duty of the court, and not of anyone other outside the court, to decide and to make a final judgement about her.

Quote

Was firebombing Hamburg and Dresden, war crimes?

This question cannot be answered because it concerns an area, WW2, which is far outside all norms of morality, logic and common sense. It happened the way it happened and any attempt to judge whether it was a war crime or not inevitably brings the person asking the question into this area, which has no exit.

[Helen of Annoy]

11 hours ago, thedutchiedutch said:

It probably wasn't easy at all but it wasn't easy as well for the Polish Resistance, the French Resistance and the Dutch Resistance etc. etc. but at least they stood up against the oppressive regime. I never forget the stories of my grand parents and my parents about what they had to endure during 5 years of Nazi Germany occupation. They slowly starved the Dutch to death. No sympathy, no mercy. I am NOT sorry for those who contributed to this massacre. One day you are going to get punished, whether you are 18 or 96. I don't care. 

Take a look at this link : https://www.jstor.org/stable/1429971

Each member of any resistance and each sympathizer were in mortal danger. 

But while it was extremely risky to join the resistance efforts in any country, that was literary impossible in Germany. The regime started with purges and murders long before WWII. It heavily lowered both physical numbers of people ready to resist and it also struck utter fear into population. (Similar will happen in Stalinist USSR, where no one had any illusions that their possible resistance could succeed in anything else than getting a number of family and friends murdered too.)

I know it wasn't your intention to imply something like this, so forgive me for putting this in the same rant of mine:

I want to say that it's very wrong to assume it was ethnicity that made the difference. Local resistance in Slavonia area of Croatia had a whole unit where everyone was ethnic German. And of course never exactly determined number of other resistance fighters who were fully or part ethnic Germans.   

There wasn't something different in Germany that allowed Nazism, it was the extremely unfortunate combination of factors that made it possible for the Nazis to take power. Once a totalitarian option seizes power, it's impossible to remove it without an external factor (such as devastating war) or complete inner economic breakdown (which takes decades).  

Which is why totalitarian options can't be a part of democratic political life. 

 

12 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I think when we try to see a difference between war and extermination camps we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, between exterminating Jews in the field and in set locations. The dead can tell no difference. War is cruelty--there's no way to refine it. Don't get me wrong, the vindictive, judgmental side of me agrees with you whole-heartedly. I'm quite familiar with that side of circumstance. As an intellectual exercise, I always explore the other side. As always, a pleasure to talk to you and thanks for your kindness and understanding. Kindness doesn't cost a penny, but it's worth is without measure.      John

Quite the opposite of vindictive, my personal view of WWII is based not just on established historic facts, but on the direct testimonies I heard first-hand from the actual participants too. Who were of various ethnicity, age, political views at that time. They were participants and they were all victims too. 

Gradma deserves compassion, like every human being.

It's not necessary, in fact, it's in my opinion counter-productive to invent false equivalencies that should aim at diminishing her role or the nature of the ideology whose more or less wiling victim she was.

While it's understandable that she wanted to both allegorically and physically run away from her past, I trust she'll be treated with dignity and care. What was happening to people in the camp she worked at can't happen to her. And it's a good thing. The opposite of vindictive.    

[Golden Duck]

17 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Don't project hatred on me.  

My first reaction was that a grandma of that age shouldn't be brought to court. But the least she can do is have her testimony about the events officially recorded, which is what this trial seems to be about. 

Compassion for an elderly person is natural and sane, no matter who she was almost 80 years ago. What do we know who she is today? It could be anything, from unrepentant to living in personal hell of guilt for 80 years. If I had no compassion for her, even if she's unrepentant, then I'd be like her in her youth. 

Being a secretary to mass murderers is clearly inexcusable if you can be bothered to imagine yourself typing, sipping coffee maybe, while the political and ethnic "enemies" are being tortured, starved and murdered at the distance that allows you to actually smell what's going on. You know, blood, ****, sweat, all caked in dirt for months. 

So she knew. It's impossible to be so monumentally stupid that you can't notice you're an accessory to mass murder if you were working at the site of mass murder. 

And being a young office worker, she could have simply gave up. Decided it's her time to spend more time cooking. She had a way out. 

Unlike the soldiers who could choose between obeying orders or dying an ethical martyr death. People who think they would die out of ethical reasons are numerous, but those who actually can do that are rare. So I don't blame a soldier who ends up committing a war crime with the same intensity I blame those who brought him into such situation. 

Which is why I think it's not logical to propose soldiers committing war crimes somehow exculpates a secretary at the site specifically set up for the purpose of extermination of human beings. 

Extermination of human beings. 

See, that's the inexcusable part.   

Why do you keep referring to her as a grandmother? 

[Helen of Annoy]

47 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Why do you keep referring to her as a grandmother? 

Why not? Don't you refer to any elderly person as a grandma or grandpa? 

I also think it's rather unfair to insist on her full name, since the unwanted "fame" is what she tried running away from. 

Does that make you feel uncomfortable? The whole point I'm trying to convey here is that she, or any other person accused and/or guilty of any crime, is still a person. Human being. She's on trial for abetting a regime that did not recognize humanity to all humans, they had reasons to claim some human are subhuman to them. If I'm compelled to treat her with particular cruelty, if I can make myself believe that she's not entirely human, then I'm doing the same mistake she did back then in WWII.  

[Golden Duck]

Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

Why not? Don't you refer to any elderly person as a grandma or grandpa? 

I also think it's rather unfair to insist on her full name, since the unwanted "fame" is what she tried running away from. 

Does that make you feel uncomfortable? The whole point I'm trying to convey here is that she, or any other person accused and/or guilty of any crime, is still a person. Human being. She's on trial for abetting a regime that did not recognize humanity to all humans, they had reasons to claim some human are subhuman to them. If I'm compelled to treat her with particular cruelty, if I can make myself believe that she's not entirely human, then I'm doing the same mistake she did back then in WWII.  

I only refer to those with grandchildren as a grandmother or a grandfather.  I was actually interested if she had children.

I know why she is on trial.  It says it in the linked article in the OP.  It also says she's been a witness in three other trials and each time she has said she was unaware of what was happening.  It also says this trial is about symbolism and she won't serve jail time.