Taiwan asks Australia to help prepare for war

[spartan max2]

13 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Problems with comprehension?

I told you about the ROC Constitution, and related activity while the held a seat as a permanent member of the UNSC.

You here arguing you view constitution as signicant except the bits that you consider aren't significant.  Why is it so hard for the ROC to change its constitution when you can do it so easily?

It seems like you are arguing in bad faith honestly. 

Obviously a Constitution alone does not make an independent nation lol. Did I ever make that claim? Nope. 

If the US adds that Canada is one of the states into it's Constitution that does not make it so in reality. 

Same as the CCP claiming Taiwan is part of their nation in there's.

So let me ask, how do you define an independent nation? 

Because clearly having entirely seperate governments, laws, militaries, alliances, etc does not?

[Tom1200]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:15 AM, third_eye said:

China never have invaded any other country but here you're saying China invading China makes sense to you ? 

Are you just making stuff up?

• 1950 - first invasion of Tibet
• 1950-53 - Chinese troops join North Korean troops invading South Korea
• 1954-55 & 58 - China invades islands owned by Taiwan
• 1959 - second invasion of Tibet
• 1960 - Chinese troops invade Burma
• 1962 & 67 - Chinese troops invade north India
• 1979 - Chinese troops invade Vietnam
• recently - China invading international waters by building artificial islands & claiming 

I only knew about a few of these, but then I had the brilliant idea to do a teeny bit of research.  The only entity in existence that would claim none of these was an invasion is... the CCP. 

48 minutes ago, and then said:

Yep... and it's a single miscalculation between militaries that makes a war.  The CCP is playing a very dangerous game.  When they sortie dozens of aircraft with capabilities to execute a serious first strike then Taiwanese military strategists understand that any of those waves could be critical in taking down their country.  IOW, things are at high tempo with a lot of stress.  ONE errant shot could set it all ablaze.

My dad was RAF, and stationed in Germany for chunks of the 1950s and 60s.  He told us this about Soviet tactics:  The Red Army in East Germany would draw up into battle formations and, at random times day or night, charge at full speed towards the border.  Thousands of tanks, hundreds of thousands of troops, aircraft, rocket batteries, everything.  And just yards from the border they would break off, return to barracks, and prepare to do it again somewhere else.  This would occur daily, sometimes several times, for weeks on end.  And every single time our troops would have to stand to, ready just in case this time they didn't stop.  (Knowing they were hugely outnumbered and with a life expectancy measured in minutes, should war actually break out.)  A very dangerous game, indeed.

[+OverSword]

9 minutes ago, Tom1200 said:

The only entity in existence that would claim none of these was an invasion is... the CCP. 

He is a propaganda agent for the CCP. 

[Golden Duck]

27 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

It seems like you are arguing in bad faith honestly. 

Obviously a Constitution alone does not make an independent nation lol. Did I ever make that claim? Nope. 

If the US adds that Canada is one of the states into it's Constitution that does not make it so in reality. 

Same as the CCP claiming Taiwan is part of their nation in there's.

So let me ask, how do you define an independent nation? 

Because clearly having entirely seperate governments, laws, militaries, alliances, etc does not?

Yeah, what actually happened is bad faith.

You've read who actually recognises ROC as an independant nation in this thread, haven't you?

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, and then said:

Yep... and it's a single miscalculation between militaries that makes a war.  The CCP is playing a very dangerous game.  When they sortie dozens of aircraft with capabilities to execute a serious first strike then Taiwanese military strategists understand that any of those waves could be critical in taking down their country.  IOW, things are at high tempo with a lot of stress.  ONE errant shot could set it all ablaze.

If the Chinese go for Taiwan they will win.

Initially they will suffer a large number of aircraft losses. If they are intelligent they will keep their decent ones aside and do saturation attacks with old aircraft instead. Once they have air supremacy the war is over. Taiwan is too far away from the USA for it to surge a large number of forces there before the war is lost. The war won`t go nuclear, when push comes to shove Americans are not going to die in their millions to save another people.

And because the USA is dependent on Chinese imports any sanctions will be token gestures that cause no real economic harm.

[spartan max2]

1 minute ago, Golden Duck said:

Yeah, what actually happened is bad faith.

You've read who actually recognises ROC as an independant nation in this thread, haven't you?

Not answering my questions I see. Coo.

And Yes. I'm sure you read my responses if you would like to comment on them.

 

 

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

And because the USA is dependent on Chinese imports any sanctions will be token gestures that cause no real economic harm.

Then why do you suppose they don't just go take over? 

[Golden Duck]

Just now, spartan max2 said:

Not answering my questions I see. Coo.

And Yes. I'm sure you read my responses if you would like to comment on them.

 

 

Is it that hard?  An independent nation has to be recognised as an independent.

[Duke Wellington]

21 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Then why do you suppose they don't just go take over? 

Oh they are building up to it.

I think they are waiting 10-20 years so they can defeat any comeback from the USA.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

52 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Then why do you suppose they don't just go take over? 

They’re checking to see if the guard dog has any teeth. The conversation between Xi and Joe will have been insightful on that front.

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

They’re checking to see if the guard dog has any teeth. The conversation between Xi and Joe will have been insightful on that front.

I disagree.  It's because of all the many assets and allies the US has in the region.  **** with us at your peril.  We can really make existence miserable for our enemies.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

15 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I disagree.  It's because of all the many assets and allies the US has in the region.  **** with us at your peril.  We can really make existence miserable for our enemies.

Depends on how quickly China reckons they can get boots on the ground, the US won’t be launching air strikes or anything like that with civilians in the way. But if they cn’t get past a US led blockade? I agree, it’ll be a very unpleasant time for China. 
But it’ll need to be US led. And if Xi thinks Joe will vacillate… there’ll be boots on the ground before any real opposition is formed.

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Depends on how quickly China reckons they can get boots on the ground, the US won’t be launching air strikes or anything like that with civilians in the way. But if they cn’t get past a US led blockade? I agree, it’ll be a very unpleasant time for China. 
But it’ll need to be US led. And if Xi thinks Joe will vacillate… there’ll be boots on the ground before any real opposition is formed.

The unpleasantness they will suffer need have little to do with actual military action.  Just ask Iran.  I guarantee within the next twenty years India would be worth more and have more influence than China.

[Duke Wellington]

8 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Depends on how quickly China reckons they can get boots on the ground, the US won’t be launching air strikes or anything like that with civilians in the way. But if they cn’t get past a US led blockade? I agree, it’ll be a very unpleasant time for China. 
But it’ll need to be US led. And if Xi thinks Joe will vacillate… there’ll be boots on the ground before any real opposition is formed.

If China struck tomorrow then due to its proximity to Taiwan the USA wouldn`t be able to move a significant force there in time to stop the invasion.

The USA and NATO cannot afford to go WW3 on China, or to even blockage its shipping. Our economies are too dependent on it for imports. We would bankrupt ourselves and have massive shortages. 

The only solution I can see is to give Taiwan its own nuclear deterrent. 

[SHaYap]

2 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

Are you just making stuff up?

• 1950 - first invasion of Tibet
• 1950-53 - Chinese troops join North Korean troops invading South Korea
• 1954-55 & 58 - China invades islands owned by Taiwan
• 1959 - second invasion of Tibet
• 1960 - Chinese troops invade Burma
• 1962 & 67 - Chinese troops invade north India
• 1979 - Chinese troops invade Vietnam
• recently - China invading international waters by building artificial islands & claiming 

I only knew about a few of these, but then I had the brilliant idea to do a teeny bit of research.

The only thing you got right there is "teeny" 

As for research and brilliant idea... You might as well read your cereal box and say you know pretty much of every little thing there is that was printed on a cereal box. 

2 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

  The only entity in existence that would claim none of these was an invasion is... the CCP. 

You mean like Hawaii? Was that thievery or robbery? 

Quote

[00.10:39]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

He is a propaganda agent for the CCP. 

No, 'he' is the reason you were given birth to on the land that you claim freedom and liberty so you can choose to be a hypocrite. 

~

Here you folks even having the shamelessness to say as if it's the Chinese, or Taiwan, or the Taipei "people" you are concerned about. Or that "中华民国" is the problem, your bigotry borders on the ridiculous as well as on prejudice, but hey, what else is new. 

Perhaps the level of hypocrisy that is greatly heightened.

Nothing surprising, Americans had seen this coming for a long time. 

Quote

https://thepointmag.com › criticism

The Closing of the American Mind | The Point Magazine

 

27 Nov 2017 — The Closing of the American Mind ... Allan Bloom was an elitist. He saw himself as a champion of excellence in an age of vulgarity. While a ...

 

 

 

 

 

https://newcriterion.com › 2007/11

“Openness” & “The Closing of the American Mind” | The New Criterion

 

For all its loose-bagginess, The Closing of the American Mind is a book written with commanding passion, urgency, and conviction. Bloom himself described the ...

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com › ...

The Closing of the American Mind Thirty Years Later: A Symposium

 

22 May 2017 — All is not well in America—or in the University. Allan Bloom's The Closing of the American Mind offers a profound and compelling ...

~

The only way some of you folks here can avoid such a sorry state of condition is to lose the mind. 

Pride is such a precious thing, especially and specifically American pride, as if it's any more special than others.

~

 

[Eldorado]

China has warned war could be imminent, days after its airforce deployed a record number of warplanes into Taiwan’s airspace as the conflict intensifies.

Earlier this week, 34 Chinese J-16 fighters escorted 12 nuclear-capable H-6 bombers into their protected territory.

It brought the total of Chinese aircraft sent into Taiwan's defence zone to almost 150, a move slammed as "irresponsible" and "provocative”.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/world-war-3-fears-chinas-25150438

[+and-then]

17 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

If the Chinese go for Taiwan they will win.

Initially they will suffer a large number of aircraft losses. If they are intelligent they will keep their decent ones aside and do saturation attacks with old aircraft instead. Once they have air supremacy the war is over. Taiwan is too far away from the USA for it to surge a large number of forces there before the war is lost. The war won`t go nuclear, when push comes to shove Americans are not going to die in their millions to save another people.

And because the USA is dependent on Chinese imports any sanctions will be token gestures that cause no real economic harm.

You discount the idea that other nations in the region would unify to fight this evil regime?  IF the CCP is allowed to pay no price for killing tens or hundreds of thousands of Taiwanese then that would end the liberty of any in Vietnam, Philippines, Australia, and Japan.  If any U.S. administration allowed that to happen then the U.S. would be totally pushed out of the Pacific.  While I doubt Australia would try to go to war with the CCP without the U.S. carrying the lion's share of the load, I think Japan, Vietnam, and the Philippines would.  IMO, ANY NATION that just rolls over for the CCP, deserves the future they'll experience.

 

[Tom1200]

15 hours ago, third_eye said:

The only thing you got right there is "teeny" 

As for research and brilliant idea... You might as well read your cereal box and say you know pretty much of every little thing there is that was printed on a cereal box. 

Well thank Buddha one of us is prepared to click on Google and type in 'Countries invaded by China'.  Or did none of those events happen?  I know China has answers and excuses for all its actions, even to the extent of bare-faced denials, but facts are facts.  I accept that the internet isn't always 100% accurate, but you've gotta start somewhere.  So - which of those events never actually occurred?

(I don't understand your cereal allegory.  And thanks, but I don't really want an explanation.)

15 hours ago, third_eye said:

You mean like Hawaii? Was that thievery or robbery? 

How does that comment actually link to the section you quoted from mine?  

I'm in the UK, a very long way from the potential conflict region, so feel free to ignore any observations I make.  But if you decide to respond, please try to make some semblance of a coherent argument?

15 hours ago, third_eye said:

No, 'he' is the reason you were given birth to on the land that you claim freedom and liberty so you can choose to be a hypocrite. 

Here you folks even having the shamelessness to say as if it's the Chinese, or Taiwan, or the Taipei "people" you are concerned about. Or that "中华民国" is the problem, your bigotry borders on the ridiculous as well as on prejudice, but hey, what else is new. 

Perhaps the level of hypocrisy that is greatly heightened.

Nothing surprising, Americans had seen this coming for a long time. 

The only way some of you folks here can avoid such a sorry state of condition is to lose the mind. 

Pride is such a precious thing, especially and specifically American pride, as if it's any more special than others.

None of this makes the slightest sense to me.  But if you are prepared to re-write this into proper English and full sentences, then I'm prepared to listen.

 

1. It is possible for two places to have similar names yet remain separate identities.  I'm thinking of East Germany and West Germany, for starters.  Would anyone argue that they were one single nation?  Are Ireland and Northern Ireland the same place?  etc.  To avoid confusion, let's call the People's Republic of China 'China' and the Republic of China 'Taiwan'.
2. Taiwan is not ruled by China.  Taiwan is a liberal democracy with all the features of an independent nation state: its own laws, currency, army and flavours of ice cream.

Even if #2 is correct, that alone is not argument enough to intervene if China attacks Taiwan.  We would have to weigh up the pros and cons of taking action, and ultimately our political leaders will decide if intervention is in our nations' best interests.  

13 minutes ago, and then said:

You discount the idea that other nations in the region would unify to fight this evil regime?  ...  IMO, ANY NATION that just rolls over for the CCP, deserves the future they'll experience.

I agree 100% with that.  And we need to be clear that mistrusting the CCP is not racism or xenophobia.  Our concern is nothing to do with the Chinese-ness of China, but the fact that it's run by a self-serving, self-perpetuating, brutal, faceless, all-controlling, all-obedient bureaucracy called Communism.

[Duke Wellington]

20 minutes ago, and then said:

You discount the idea that other nations in the region would unify to fight this evil regime?  IF the CCP is allowed to pay no price for killing tens or hundreds of thousands of Taiwanese then that would end the liberty of any in Vietnam, Philippines, Australia, and Japan.  If any U.S. administration allowed that to happen then the U.S. would be totally pushed out of the Pacific.  While I doubt Australia would try to go to war with the CCP without the U.S. carrying the lion's share of the load, I think Japan, Vietnam, and the Philippines would.  IMO, ANY NATION that just rolls over for the CCP, deserves the future they'll experience.

 

The problem is if Chinese society militarises due to a major war they have more people than the USA, CANZUK, and and the EU combined. Plus they make almost everything for us. I dont think they would be able to do us, but I dont think we would collectively be able to do them either.

[DarkHunter]

16 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

If China struck tomorrow then due to its proximity to Taiwan the USA wouldn`t be able to move a significant force there in time to stop the invasion.

The USA and NATO cannot afford to go WW3 on China, or to even blockage its shipping. Our economies are too dependent on it for imports. We would bankrupt ourselves and have massive shortages. 

The only solution I can see is to give Taiwan its own nuclear deterrent. 

But China wont be able to strike tomorrow in any significant way.  They can fire missiles and bomb Taiwan but that is about it.  Taiwan has an active military of 290,000 soldiers with approximately 3,870,000 in reserves.  To successfully invade it would need to be captured before Taiwan could fully mobilize its reserve force.  Some numbers I been seeing in various articles are saying at bare minimum China would need atleast 500,000 soldiers to invade Taiwan but probably more.  That amount of men, equipment, ammo, and fuel will take some time to assemble and organize, let alone moving the naval assets required into position as they arent currently concentrated and spread out among various naval groups.  Realistically at minimum Taiwan would have weeks to a month or two to prepare for an invasion.

Even then China has no experience in conducting a large scale naval invasion and with the weather and tides only two months out of the year have calm enough ocean conditions to allow for a large scale naval landing.   

To top it off Taiwan has already built extensive reinforced fortifications along all the possible landing sights, Taiwan only has like 13 or so beaches suitable for a naval landing.  Even then most of the population and just about everything China would need to capture is on the eastern side of the Island behind mountains, jungles, forests, and swamps.

While Taiwan would lose a war against China all in it's own just by the size difference, Taiwan can hold out long enough for an intervention force to arrive especially since only air and naval power would be required to stop any invasion.

As for your economic argument, not having the funds to fight a war has never stopped a country in modern times.  With the way economics are handled now going bankrupt isnt really a problem anymore since basically all economies are debt based and use fiat currencies.  Supply shortages would happen but that is generally what happens when countries go to war, especially wars between more equalish powers so not exactly a massive problem outside of the short term.

[Duke Wellington]

4 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

But China wont be able to strike tomorrow in any significant way.  They can fire missiles and bomb Taiwan but that is about it.  Taiwan has an active military of 290,000 soldiers with approximately 3,870,000 in reserves.  To successfully invade it would need to be captured before Taiwan could fully mobilize its reserve force.  Some numbers I been seeing in various articles are saying at bare minimum China would need atleast 500,000 soldiers to invade Taiwan but probably more.  That amount of men, equipment, ammo, and fuel will take some time to assemble and organize, let alone moving the naval assets required into position as they arent currently concentrated and spread out among various naval groups.  Realistically at minimum Taiwan would have weeks to a month or two to prepare for an invasion.

Even then China has no experience in conducting a large scale naval invasion and with the weather and tides only two months out of the year have calm enough ocean conditions to allow for a large scale naval landing.   

To top it off Taiwan has already built extensive reinforced fortifications along all the possible landing sights, Taiwan only has like 13 or so beaches suitable for a naval landing.  Even then most of the population and just about everything China would need to capture is on the eastern side of the Island behind mountains, jungles, forests, and swamps.

While Taiwan would lose a war against China all in it's own just by the size difference, Taiwan can hold out long enough for an intervention force to arrive especially since only air and naval power would be required to stop any invasion.

As for your economic argument, not having the funds to fight a war has never stopped a country in modern times.  With the way economics are handled now going bankrupt isnt really a problem anymore since basically all economies are debt based and use fiat currencies.  Supply shortages would happen but that is generally what happens when countries go to war, especially wars between more equalish powers so not exactly a massive problem outside of the short term.

The planning, putting in place the logistics, the training, and assembling of a large expeditionary force would likely take the USA 6 months to prepare.

It would be a liberation war, not one to prevent an invasion. Bearing in mind that Taiwan is China too, I suspect there may be a lot of soldiers unwilling to fight. As their split is recent in historical terms there are going to be people in Taiwan who prefer communism. And its a people fighting the same people. I`m not convinced the large majority of their regulars would be prepared to fight and die for it.

But even if support amongst the population is mustered, the USA wouldn`t get there in time to stop a Chinese takeover. I also suspect it would be the USA on its own as Taiwan is not a part of NATO, and the other NATO allies will want to prevent crippling damage to their economies. In fact, I think the USA would flap about like crazy over it but in the end just letting China take Taiwan.

And afterwards they are not in the position to punish China without ruining their own economy, so no comeback would occur.

[DarkHunter]

12 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

The planning, putting in place the logistics, the training, and assembling of a large expeditionary force would likely take the USA 6 months to prepare.

It would be a liberation war, not one to prevent an invasion. Bearing in mind that Taiwan is China too, I suspect there may be a lot of soldiers unwilling to fight. As their split is recent in historical terms there are going to be people in Taiwan who prefer communism. And its a people fighting the same people. I`m not convinced the large majority of their regulars would be prepared to fight and die for it.

But even if support amongst the population is mustered, the USA wouldn`t get there in time to stop a Chinese takeover. I also suspect it would be the USA on its own as Taiwan is not a part of NATO, and the other NATO allies will want to prevent crippling damage to their economies. In fact, I think the USA would flap about like crazy over it but in the end just letting China take Taiwan.

And afterwards they are not in the position to punish China without ruining their own economy, so no comeback would occur.

It might take six months to prepare ground troops but there are two carrier strike groups in the Pacific, with a third in the middle east.  A naval intervention force would be at Taiwan in a few days to a week or two.  That is assuming naval groups during the Chinese build up wouldnt be moved to positions to better stop any naval invasion.  There would be absolutely no need for ground troops to be involved. 

Your entire argument is based on the idea China would take over Taiwan almost instantly with almost zero build up time for an invasion force which just isnt realistic at all.

[Duke Wellington]

33 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

It might take six months to prepare ground troops but there are two carrier strike groups in the Pacific, with a third in the middle east.  A naval intervention force would be at Taiwan in a few days to a week or two.  That is assuming naval groups during the Chinese build up wouldnt be moved to positions to better stop any naval invasion.  There would be absolutely no need for ground troops to be involved. 

Your entire argument is based on the idea China would take over Taiwan almost instantly with almost zero build up time for an invasion force which just isnt realistic at all.

They have been building up for years and have developed carrier killer missiles.

I think the invasion would be won quicker than what you envision.

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

The problem is if Chinese society militarises due to a major war they have more people than the USA, CANZUK, and and the EU combined. Plus they make almost everything for us. I dont think they would be able to do us, but I dont think we would collectively be able to do them either.

Unlike the Islamist fundamentalist crazies, the CCP wouldn't go suicidal in an effort to take Taiwan.  They'd do realistic cost/benefit analyses and the biggest factor would be how much damage, physical AND economic would be required to reclaim that land.  If the Taiwanese are willing to fight, the bloodletting alone might cause the CCP to think twice.  They have a tremendous amount of leverage in the world right now.  They'd lose most of it if they are seen to wantonly slaughter thousands of citizens who haven't attacked them first...

[+and-then]

19 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

They’re checking to see if the guard dog has any teeth. The conversation between Xi and Joe will have been insightful on that front.

Yep.  You can have the biggest, most vicious dog in the world but if you aren't willing to set him loose, he's just a waste of resources.  I truly worry that Xi will be unable to restrain his military from trying to take advantage of non-existent leadership in DC.