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L.A.T.1961

EU surrenders over British bangers sold in Northern Ireland

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L.A.T.1961

The Commission is willing to make an exception allowing “national identity goods” such as sausage to enter Northern Ireland, despite EU rules restricting chilled meats from non-EU countries. 

In another sign that Brussels is willing to compromise, it has dropped its demands for the UK to agree to Swiss-style alignment on food safety and animal health to minimise the need for border checks. 

Rather than a Swiss style deal, the European Commission will offer a bespoke arrangement, which is aimed at reducing the number of customs checks, which the UK has blamed for having a chilling effect on trade with Northern Ireland. 

Mr Sefcovic will unveil his four proposals, which will cover the supply of medicines, animal health rules, customs procedures and a stronger role for Northern Ireland’s institutions in managing the Protocol, on Wednesday, after they are signed off by Ursula von der Leyen’s college of commissioners. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/10/08/eu-offers-surrenders-terms-sausage-wars/

 

Donaldson welcomes ‘change in tone’ from EU on Northern Ireland protocol.

“I welcome the change in the language being used. People are now solution-focused,” Mr Donaldson said. “They’re now talking about negotiations. All of these things were off the table, even three months ago.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/donaldson-welcomes-change-in-tone-from-eu-on-northern-ireland-protocol-1.4695474

 

NI Protocol ‘wall has been breached’ says DUP’s Donaldson, after EU say new proposals incoming.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ni-protocol-wall-has-been-breached-says-dups-donaldson-after-eu-say-new-proposals-incoming-40925934.html

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The Silver Shroud
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

The Commission is willing to make an exception allowing “national identity goods” such as sausage to enter Northern Ireland, despite EU rules restricting chilled meats from non-EU countries. 

In another sign that Brussels is willing to compromise, it has dropped its demands for the UK to agree to Swiss-style alignment on food safety and animal health to minimise the need for border checks. 

Rather than a Swiss style deal, the European Commission will offer a bespoke arrangement, which is aimed at reducing the number of customs checks, which the UK has blamed for having a chilling effect on trade with Northern Ireland. 

Mr Sefcovic will unveil his four proposals, which will cover the supply of medicines, animal health rules, customs procedures and a stronger role for Northern Ireland’s institutions in managing the Protocol, on Wednesday, after they are signed off by Ursula von der Leyen’s college of commissioners. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/10/08/eu-offers-surrenders-terms-sausage-wars/

 

Donaldson welcomes ‘change in tone’ from EU on Northern Ireland protocol.

“I welcome the change in the language being used. People are now solution-focused,” Mr Donaldson said. “They’re now talking about negotiations. All of these things were off the table, even three months ago.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/donaldson-welcomes-change-in-tone-from-eu-on-northern-ireland-protocol-1.4695474

 

NI Protocol ‘wall has been breached’ says DUP’s Donaldson, after EU say new proposals incoming.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ni-protocol-wall-has-been-breached-says-dups-donaldson-after-eu-say-new-proposals-incoming-40925934.html

I gave this a "like" at first as I thought it was news, but it is just wishful thinking (also, I was unable to read the Telegraph article because of the paywall- there are ways of by-passing this, personally I never give a link if there is a potential paywall).

Here is actual up-to-date news on the EU/UK NIP situation:

The EU's Brexit negotiator has told a seminar in Dublin that there will be no renegotiation of the Northern Ireland Protocol and that the EU will not accept any solution that will cut the region off from the benefits of the single market.

Speaking to the Institute of International and European Affairs (IIEA) today, Maroš Šefčovič said the EU would continue to work to find practical solutions to make the protocol "work on the ground".

He said recent threats concerning the triggering of Article 16 were "not helpful", describing such talk "as a distraction".

'No renegotiation of the NI Protocol' - EU Brexit chief (rte.ie)

Edited by The Silver Shroud
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L.A.T.1961

So I guess you will be a little surprised when - "Mr Sefcovic will unveil his four proposals, which will cover the supply of medicines, animal health rules, customs procedures and a stronger role for Northern Ireland’s institutions in managing the Protocol, on Wednesday." - As the above proposals change the implementation of rules for goods crossing the border. ;) 

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The Silver Shroud
On 10/9/2021 at 2:53 PM, L.A.T.1961 said:

So I guess you will be a little surprised when - "Mr Sefcovic will unveil his four proposals, which will cover the supply of medicines, animal health rules, customs procedures and a stronger role for Northern Ireland’s institutions in managing the Protocol, on Wednesday." - As the above proposals change the implementation of rules for goods crossing the border. ;) 

I won't be surprised at the EU proposals.

I will be very surprised if the UK accepts them.

The UK has now changed it's 'red line' to refusing the NIP to be overseen by the European Court of Justice. Since the NIP is part of the WA, and the WA was an agreement with the EU, this is simply impossible, and the UK government knows this. It is like the UK making a trade agreement with the US, and then a few months after, refusing to accept the legitimacy of US law with regard to the agreement. 

I'll be pleased if I am wrong, but I don't think I will be.

There are two major problems with the NIP, as far as the UK is concerned, although of course Johnson and Frost negotiated and signed up to it a year ago. The first is that if it remains, it will become obvious that NI is prospering under the SM while the rest of the UK is not. The second is, Brexit isn't viable and never was. The UK hasn't the infrastructure, staff, will, or money to police it's trade borders. The South of England is still littered with giant unfinished and unused lorry parks and they never will be finished.That's why the UK "grace periods" keep getting kicked down the road. What country would spent money making trade more difficult?

Brexit served its purpose to keep the Tory Party together, and mobilise popular support. Brexit now only has value for our government as a way to keep telling the population that it is all the fault of the EU, that if they were reasonable we would be propering and things would be fine. Once the UK starts accept and implement Brexit, it all falls apart.

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L.A.T.1961
1 minute ago, The Silver Shroud said:

I won't be surprised at the EU proposals.

I will be very surprised if the UK accepts them.

The UK has now changed it's 'red line' to refusing the NIP to be overseen by the European Court of Justice.

No I don't think accepting ECJ will be a goer either and it was in the July command papers delivered to parliament some months ago. 

Despite what the Irish are saying about this new red line

As I said in a previous post on another thread the EU will be faced with two options, either keeping some control over UK  or having non.

If UK triggers A16 it will be the latter and then there is the problem of whether the inevitable trade war that follows is backed by all EU members.

This is far from certain. 

Some do not want to complicate trade as the EU staggers out from underneath the corona virus effects, global energy price problems, lack of workers Ect.

So it's all to play for but whatever the outcome it will be different to the existing, supposedly non negotiable, Norther Ireland Protocol. ;)

 

 

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The Silver Shroud

LAT, you are 

4 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

No I don't think accepting ECJ will be a goer either and it was in the July command papers delivered to parliament some months ago. 

Despite what the Irish are saying about this new red line

As I said in a previous post on another thread the EU will be faced with two options, either keeping some control over UK  or having non.

If UK triggers A16 it will be the latter and then there is the problem of whether the inevitable trade war that follows is backed by all EU members.

This is far from certain. 

Some do not want to complicate trade as the EU staggers out from underneath the corona virus effects, global energy price problems, lack of workers Ect.

So it's all to play for but whatever the outcome it will be different to the existing, supposedly non negotiable, Norther Ireland Protocol. ;)

 

 

So,you accept it was after BoJo the Clown (and I am thinking Clown isn't the correct word) and Frost signed the agrement. So you must also accept they were being duplicitous signing it?

From what I read of your posts, you are far from stupid. I just can't understand why you still support Brexit. It has delivered on nothing as far as the economy is concerned,or politically, it takes the UK out of the modern world of trade and politics, are you really one of these people who believe that the 1950s were our best years, and can we even get back there now? The world has moved on.

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Cookie Monster

I maintain to this day we should have just left with a hard Brexit.

Until the EU have nothing to play games over they will be unwilling to negotiate fairly. At the back of their minds is always `lets find a way of coercing the Brits back in`. The result? Well how many times have the EU had to put their hands up and surrender so far? lmao.

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The Silver Shroud
36 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

I maintain to this day we should have just left with a hard Brexit.

Until the EU have nothing to play games over they will be unwilling to negotiate fairly. At the back of their minds is always `lets find a way of coercing the Brits back in`. The result? Well how many times have the EU had to put their hands up and surrender so far? lmao.

We did, just about. What could have been harder? A "soft Brexit" would have meant we remained in the SM.I don't think you understand Brexit, do you think you do?

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L.A.T.1961
15 hours ago, The Silver Shroud said:

LAT, you are 

So,you accept it was after BoJo the Clown (and I am thinking Clown isn't the correct word) and Frost signed the agrement. So you must also accept they were being duplicitous signing it?

 

No. 

I think Frost, Boris and others decided either the EU would take account of the potentially unstable political situation on the island of Ireland and implement a sensible light touch, if highly unlikely, approach to the needs of border checks. Or see the protocol as a nail to the Brussels hammer. 

What has happened is Brussels started hammering as hard as they could.

This then opens up the option to halt implementation of parts of the deal, which has happened, and request a renegotiation.

The EU should have seen this coming but as usual they have overplayed their hand. 

Boris agreed the deal and gave Brussels enough rope to hang themselves, which in their rush to punish the UK they duly did. 

It is a lovely bit of political chess. ;)

 

On a completely different note I watched the Tony Blair docudrama last night about his relationship with president Clinton and the special relationship.

Another example of political chess as the underdog Blair influenced US foreign policy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ty79c

 

 

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The Silver Shroud

The day when its handling of the coronavirus pandemic was described as “one of the most important public health failures the UK has ever experienced” was certainly a good day to let it quietly but certainly be known that the government had done just as bad a job with regard to Brexit. In that sense, Lord David Frost did not disappoint.

Lord Frost – who is still described as the government’s chief Brexit negotiator because almost two full years after Brexit he is still negotiating it, and mainly with himself – flew to Lisbon on Tuesday to stand in front of some curtains, and, in front of fully 275 online viewers, gave himself an absolute kicking.

David Frost cocked it all up, explained David Frost – but don’t worry, David Frost is here to sort it out | The Independent

Edited by The Silver Shroud

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The Silver Shroud

The UK government always intended to “ditch” the Northern Ireland protocol, Boris Johnson’s former adviser Dominic Cummings has claimed.

In a string of tweets, Cummings said the flawed Brexit deal had been a way to get out of the electoral doldrums and “whack [Jeremy] Corbyn”, and “of course” the government should be allowed to “sometimes break deals… like every other state does”.

His remarks have caused alarm in Dublin, where the former taoiseach Leo Varadkar, who negotiated the Northern Ireland protocol with Johnson at a meeting in Wirral in October 2019, said that, if true, they showed the government could not be trusted.

Dominic Cummings says UK always intended to ditch NI protocol | Brexit | The Guardian

Edited by The Silver Shroud

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The Silver Shroud

Looks like the NIP "problem" is going to escalate.  The UK will not like being in a trade dispute with the EU.

Edited by The Silver Shroud
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L.A.T.1961
3 hours ago, The Silver Shroud said:

The UK government always intended to “ditch” the Northern Ireland protocol, Boris Johnson’s former adviser Dominic Cummings has claimed.

 

As I said above this is a game of political chess. 

And the strong words from Germany appear to be by a journalist, not Germany. 

Vardakas's comments suggesting UK wouldn't be trusted if the original deal wasn't signed has been tried more than once and went nowhere. 

As the Japan trade deal and recent Aus Sub deal demonstrates. ;)

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The Silver Shroud
35 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

As I said above this is a game of political chess. 

And the strong words from Germany appear to be by a journalist, not Germany. 

Vardakas's comments suggesting UK wouldn't be trusted if the original deal wasn't signed has been tried more than once and went nowhere. 

As the Japan trade deal and recent Aus Sub deal demonstrates. ;)

And we have the right person playing. If anyone can re-write the unsatisfactory Protocol negotiated by David Frost a year ago, it'll be Lord Frost. I bet he wishes he could sack him for incompetence.

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L.A.T.1961

update-

EU offers to ease customs checks on British trade destined for N. Ireland.

The offer was part of a set of wide-ranging proposals designed to solve problems in post-Brexit trading arrangements in Northern Ireland that London says are reigniting inter-community tensions.

Although the EU says it refuses to renegotiate the protocol, a statement said the plans were “a different model” for its implementation and would facilitate trade problems “to a significant extent”.

To ease the frictions, the EU released four texts that zeroed in on a number of issues, including complaints of constrained medicine supplies, overzealous food safety checks and too much paperwork.

Taken together, the solutions would create an “express lane” for the movement of goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, the EU said.

All the while, “robust monitoring and enforcement” would remain in order to protect the EU from health and security threats, it said.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20211013-eu-offers-easing-n-ireland-customs-checks-on-british-trade-to-solve-brexit-row

 

We are not presenting these proposals to the U.K. government as a take-it-or-leave-it package. We want them to feed into our discussions over the coming weeks,” an EU official told reporters ahead of the publication of the plans.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-uk-northern-ireland-protocol-trade-brexit/

 

It looks like Brussels does not want a trade war and is in flexible mode, they do not want the UK to see these new measures and then just walk.

If I was Frost tonight I would be encouraged. ;) 

 

 

 

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Cookie Monster
57 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

update-

EU offers to ease customs checks on British trade destined for N. Ireland.

The offer was part of a set of wide-ranging proposals designed to solve problems in post-Brexit trading arrangements in Northern Ireland that London says are reigniting inter-community tensions.

Although the EU says it refuses to renegotiate the protocol, a statement said the plans were “a different model” for its implementation and would facilitate trade problems “to a significant extent”.

To ease the frictions, the EU released four texts that zeroed in on a number of issues, including complaints of constrained medicine supplies, overzealous food safety checks and too much paperwork.

Taken together, the solutions would create an “express lane” for the movement of goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, the EU said.

All the while, “robust monitoring and enforcement” would remain in order to protect the EU from health and security threats, it said.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20211013-eu-offers-easing-n-ireland-customs-checks-on-british-trade-to-solve-brexit-row

 

We are not presenting these proposals to the U.K. government as a take-it-or-leave-it package. We want them to feed into our discussions over the coming weeks,” an EU official told reporters ahead of the publication of the plans.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-uk-northern-ireland-protocol-trade-brexit/

It looks like Brussels does not want a trade war and is in flexible mode, they do not want the UK to see these new measures and then just walk.

If I was Frost tonight I would be encouraged. ;) 

 

I have a much simpler solution.

This is so pure genius, it will amaze you all!!!!

If the product comes from mainland Britain all we need to do is stamp onto its packaging `Made in Britain`. No checks need to happen between mainland Britain and Northern Ireland. Whenever something crosses into the Republic of Ireland they just look for the `Made in Britain` stamp on the boxing. If they find it they can then check the paperwork to make sure the relevant taxes have been applied.

Its that easy.

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The Silver Shroud
2 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

update-

EU offers to ease customs checks on British trade destined for N. Ireland.

The offer was part of a set of wide-ranging proposals designed to solve problems in post-Brexit trading arrangements in Northern Ireland that London says are reigniting inter-community tensions.

Although the EU says it refuses to renegotiate the protocol, a statement said the plans were “a different model” for its implementation and would facilitate trade problems “to a significant extent”.

To ease the frictions, the EU released four texts that zeroed in on a number of issues, including complaints of constrained medicine supplies, overzealous food safety checks and too much paperwork.

Taken together, the solutions would create an “express lane” for the movement of goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, the EU said.

All the while, “robust monitoring and enforcement” would remain in order to protect the EU from health and security threats, it said.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20211013-eu-offers-easing-n-ireland-customs-checks-on-british-trade-to-solve-brexit-row

 

We are not presenting these proposals to the U.K. government as a take-it-or-leave-it package. We want them to feed into our discussions over the coming weeks,” an EU official told reporters ahead of the publication of the plans.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-uk-northern-ireland-protocol-trade-brexit/

 

It looks like Brussels does not want a trade war and is in flexible mode, they do not want the UK to see these new measures and then just walk.

If I was Frost tonight I would be encouraged. ;) 

 

 

 

Why? He has already said that is not acceptable. The UK does not want to implement the Protocol.

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L.A.T.1961
47 minutes ago, The Silver Shroud said:

Why? He has already said that is not acceptable. The UK does not want to implement the Protocol.

The UK would not implement part of the protocol seen as unworkable. 

But the EU have offered useful changes and say this is part of ongoing talks, so they might move further in the next few weeks. 

What is not encouraging about that. ;)

Essentially this option is not a million miles away to that offered to the EU as a solution to the Irish border years ago and dismissed instantly.

A light touch customs regime based on the amount of goods moving between the NI, rest of the UK, and the Republic and the perceived risk to the single market.

The perceived risk, according to Brussels at the time, needed a full on customs system with all goods checked. 

The only difference now appears to be the possibility of the UK triggering A 16. 

 

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RAyMO

The interesting fact is that the NI economy is doing quite well, despite the tosh being banded about. Trade with ROI both exports and imports is well up, and when compared the the same qtr 3 in 2021 to 2019  NI economy is plus 0.5%. I.e. larger than pre-pandemic levels (if we can get the protocol simplified but retain dual access to markets there are real opportunities for growth). The UK for comparison is still below its 2019 qtr 3 marker -2.9%, while the ROI is a massive +22%. Figures according to NISRA - the NI equivalent to ONS. 

There have been difficulties and the latest proposals from the EU recognise and address these. Implementation of these proposals while retaining access to the dual markets would be any normal government's wet dream. But the DUP and the British Government for ideological reasons have invented the ECJ as a major problem. Nobody business nor otherwise was complaining about the role of the ECJ, and the few that are now will do so because they were told to do so. ask them the real practical implications and they wouldn't have a clue.   

The majority of people in NI want what is best for NI - that is not necessarily what is best for the DUP whose real concern is the loss of more than 50%  of its support base since Brexit. 

It would be a monumental folly for the UK government to throw away NI's best chance of ever becoming a economic powerhouse1, in what will always be a futile attempt to appease DUP and its current 13% support base.  

1 relative to the basket case it has always been 

Edited by RAyMO

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RAyMO
7 hours ago, RAyMO said:

The interesting fact is that the NI economy is doing quite well, despite the tosh being banded about. Trade with ROI both exports and imports is well up, and when compared the the same qtr 3 in 2021 to 2019  NI economy is plus 0.5%. I.e. larger than pre-pandemic levels (if we can get the protocol simplified but retain dual access to markets there are real opportunities for growth). The UK for comparison is still below its 2019 qtr 3 marker -2.9%, while the ROI is a massive +22%. Figures according to NISRA - the NI equivalent to ONS. 

There have been difficulties and the latest proposals from the EU recognise and address these. Implementation of these proposals while retaining access to the dual markets would be any normal government's wet dream. But the DUP and the British Government for ideological reasons have invented the ECJ as a major problem. Nobody business nor otherwise was complaining about the role of the ECJ, and the few that are now will do so because they were told to do so. ask them the real practical implications and they wouldn't have a clue.   

The majority of people in NI want what is best for NI - that is not necessarily what is best for the DUP whose real concern is the loss of more than 50%  of its support base since Brexit. 

It would be a monumental folly for the UK government to throw away NI's best chance of ever becoming a economic powerhouse1, in what will always be a futile attempt to appease DUP and its current 13% support base.  

1 relative to the basket case it has always been 

errata qtr 3 - should read qtr 2. 

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The Silver Shroud
8 hours ago, RAyMO said:

The interesting fact is that the NI economy is doing quite well, despite the tosh being banded about. Trade with ROI both exports and imports is well up, and when compared the the same qtr 3 in 2021 to 2019  NI economy is plus 0.5%. I.e. larger than pre-pandemic levels (if we can get the protocol simplified but retain dual access to markets there are real opportunities for growth). The UK for comparison is still below its 2019 qtr 3 marker -2.9%, while the ROI is a massive +22%. Figures according to NISRA - the NI equivalent to ONS. 

There have been difficulties and the latest proposals from the EU recognise and address these. Implementation of these proposals while retaining access to the dual markets would be any normal government's wet dream. But the DUP and the British Government for ideological reasons have invented the ECJ as a major problem. Nobody business nor otherwise was complaining about the role of the ECJ, and the few that are now will do so because they were told to do so. ask them the real practical implications and they wouldn't have a clue.   

The majority of people in NI want what is best for NI - that is not necessarily what is best for the DUP whose real concern is the loss of more than 50%  of its support base since Brexit. 

It would be a monumental folly for the UK government to throw away NI's best chance of ever becoming a economic powerhouse1, in what will always be a futile attempt to appease DUP and its current 13% support base.  

1 relative to the basket case it has always been 

That is a big part of the problem. NI, because it has access to the SM, is doing considerably better than Britain, and as they continue to develop trade with the EU and discontinue trade with Britain, it will show Britain to a disadvantage.

The major problem though, is that the UK can't abide by the Protocol. Cummings tweeted yesterday what many people already believe - the WA and NIP was only agreed to get Boris and the Tories consolidated into power, they had no intention of abiding by any of it. Boris has repeatedly said there is no trade barrier between NI and GB. He is gambling on the EU not wanting to inflame terrorism in Ireland.

The UK has made little to no effort with preparing to abide by trade agreements anywhere in the UK - staff haven't been recruited, ports haven't been finished, control posts have not been started and the first year is almost over.

What the UK needs and will get, is continual disputes with the EU- it bolsters public opinion to have an enemy causing the economic problems. If we ever "Got Brexit Done" there would be no one to blame for our economic woes. Economically, Brexit was always seen as the "greatest act of self-harm an advanced nation has carried out". It only ever had political vaue to the Tory Party.

Johnson is sunning himself in Marbella watching all this nonsense unfold, just as he hoped.

Edited by The Silver Shroud
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RAyMO

The Union will not survive the end of the NI Protocol - A very good and straight forward explanation as to why the protocol was necessary in the context of the GFA and why its removal will hasten the end of the Union - the UK that is.

Edited by RAyMO

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The Silver Shroud

The Telegraph feels a trade war may be the result of the NIP impasse, and believes the UK will benefit :

The intent is clear. The EU wants to bully the UK into accepting its terms. With goodwill on both sides, even if that is in painfully short supply right now, it won’t get to that stage and a compromise can be worked out. In a trade war, however, companies are the infantry, and trucks, customs forms and export departments the main weapons. ....

...the EU has a consistent habit of wildly overestimating the power of red tape.It thinks it is a lethal weapon, capable of crippling whole countries, when in reality it is mostly a slightly irritating nuisance that can be worked around with a little extra time and effort. 

A trade war with the EU would be unfortunate. But the UK could easily come through it, and might end up in a stronger position if it did.After all, UK trade with the EU has been declining for years (down from 54pc of exports in 2006 to 43pc in 2019). Even so, just like any form of conflict, that would be a lot easier if we were prepared – and companies should start planning for that now.

Britain can easily bear a trade war with Europe – and could end up stronger (archive.ph)

Edited by The Silver Shroud

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The Silver Shroud

David Hannan (Telegraph again) speaks out against the oversight of the ECJ.

As usual, he is factually wrong, either deliberately or out of ignorance.

He is deceptive on several levels. Yes he's correct that the EFTA Court was established since it was untenable to give the EU jurisdictional powers over 3 non-member states so EFTA Court was created as a nominal body to fulfil the role of the ECJ. However, EFTA Court follows EU law verbatim. The EFTA Court was only a nominal creation to legally enforce EU law, which the 3 member-states agree to abide by. In fact, even The EFTA Court's Statute and its Rules of Procedure are modelled on those of the ECJ.

Brexit, on the other hand, is about doing away with the ECJ and European law. Something like an EFTA Court (an EU-UK Court) would not work here because the UK insists on diverging from EU law, while the EFTA Court follows EU legislation completely in parallel. 

Here he is:

But the most obvious objection to the ambassador’s assertion is that it is untrue. The three EEA states, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein, are fully within the single market, but they have never accepted ECJ jurisdiction, relying instead on a two-pillar system where the ECJ and the EFTA Court operate in parallel. Switzerland, which as a partial member of the single market is perhaps a closer parallel, had similar arrangements.

It is simply wrong for the belligerent and antagonistic EU to referee the Protocol (archive.is)

Edited by The Silver Shroud

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