Self Esteem and Religion

[+Sherapy]

14 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Belonging is a human psychological need, but that is gained from belonging to any collection of people.

Western media outlets are generally quite negative towards religion. You can see that in your article. Its comes across as trying to shoot down religion by portraying it as being about having a sense of belonging.

In the group think present in society its inconceivable that someone who is intelligent, and opened minded, and with the ability to question and criticise, can arrive at the conclusion that there is in fact a God. Its arrogance in its worst form. Its my views are correct or there is something wrong with you. And such group think has been present in Western society on a number of topics for decades.

Group think underpinned by fear is the worst.

Interesting, thank you for your thoughts. 

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Likely Guy said:

Is that it? Does the US consider themselves as a religious nation? Do any others?

Well, it says on the back of a one dollar bill, "In God We Trust".

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

 An interesting article, interested in posters thoughts. All voices are welcome.
 

 

“The researchers offered a possible explanation for their finding: Religious people feel better about themselves in religious countries not because they're religious, but simply because they fit in with the crowd.”
 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/religion-happiness_n_1219295

 

 

 

That is true but only part of the truth.

Despite some claims to the contrary, religion and faith benefit people in every country.

It is true that  benefits are greater in countries where your religion/faith is the common one, but even if it is not, you are still better off statistically than non religious/ non believers from the same cohort ( in both physical and mental health outcomes )

feeling better is only a part of the psychological  advantage.

There are many other  medical outcomes which are improved by either faith or religious attendance. 

[+Nuclear Wessel]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

There are many other  medical outcomes which are improved by either faith or religious attendance. 

This is about religion and self esteem. Perhaps start your own thread on the medical outcomes that are improved by religion so we don’t veer too far off of the track. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Nuclear Wessel

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

My initial reaction to that statement (before I have read the article) is that is the most stupid thing I have ever heard.   But the reference may need explanation and I will read the article.   Just sayin' - religious people I know tend to have severe self esteem issues because of the denial of the reality that humans are fallable and because of ridiculous expectations and judgments. (like being gay is evil/a sin/ or just unnatural, or women are not supposed to speak up even when they know better than the men what is going on)   Now I am sure that comes from being raised in a judaic religion and suspect that non judaic religions are not so controlling but have no experience with that.

I am not denying that is your experience but it isn't mine, and it isn't borne out by statistics 

eg take the bit i bolded The religious people i know believe that those "sins and failings"  are  are forgiven by Christ's sacrifice  

The y do believe in personal  responsibility but unless they do wrong, have no guilt . 

I don't know religious people who see being gay as a sin  which condemns, and i certainly don't know religious people  who see women as second class citizens. And the  religious   people i know range from very biblical conservative Christians to very social ones.

  I dare say  that there are many as you describe, perhaps more so in America, but its not my experience 

[SHaYap]

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[eight bits]

Drifting aimlessly back on topic ...

The underlying research is from 2012, and is only partially (one page) available from the publisher for free.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797611427045

However, the Word file that was accepted is available for free download (no legal red flag; this is typical academic practice in this century).

https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/210973/

(The link is on the right next to the head of the "abstract," with the "W" icon.)

On the specific question of "What is a religious country?" The dating site (eDarling) served 11 European countries, from which the study sample was drawn. How much "cultural" variation we're going to get within Europe is a concern, as is how much of that variation (e.g. Muslim vs. non-) is peculiar to the continent, or even captured in the survey for that matter.

In any case, there are three measures of country-level religiosity used:

Participant based (2)

For each country,

- average of responses to the personal religiosity question, “My personal religious beliefs are important to me” (1 = not at all, 7 = very much).

- average of respondents' "indicated interest in church involvement," not further described.

Polling based (1)

- the percentage of people in each country who answered “no” to the following 2007–2008 Gallup World Poll question: “Does religion occupy an important place in your life?” ("Religion in Europe," 2011, para. 2.1)

So, make of that what you will. It seems to me to be a tad remote from having "In God we trust" on your currency (or, for that matter, that Queen Elizabeth reigns by the grace of God, generally asserted in abbreviated Latin, that does or has appeared on currency elsewhere), or whether long ago the US Senate wished to assure the Barbary pirates that America wasn't a Christian country (while buying a few years before defeating the pirates militarily).

[SHaYap]

4 minutes ago, eight bits said:

So, make of that what you will. It seems to me to be a tad remote from having "In God we trust" on your currency (or, for that matter, that Queen Elizabeth reigns by the grace of God, generally asserted in abbreviated Latin, that does or has appeared on currency elsewhere), or whether long ago the US Senate wished to assure the Barbary pirates that America wasn't a Christian country (while buying a few years before defeating the pirates militarily).

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[The_Phantom_Stranger]

I looked at the way the survey was conducted. It said each country had 1,000 people polled, except for the USA which had 355,000 people polled. I don't think this is a good ratio... This was for the poll about how much religion matters to the population of a country, not the self esteem poll. It is linked to in the article from the original post.

[Saru]

Thread cleaned

Let's keep things civil and on topic please folks.

[The_Phantom_Stranger]

According to my understanding of the Book of Daniel. It prophesizes that the majority of people are indifferent in their religious beliefs. They may sway either way depending on who is in power. It is the indifferent people who actually play a pivotal part in the final wars on Earth. These wars have already happened, they are happening and they will happen again. They eventually decide to overthrow the Beast.

My thoughts on the poll of how religious each country is that America is a young country. I wonder, if as it ages it will naturally start to become less religious.

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, The_Phantom_Stranger said:

According to my understanding of the Book of Daniel. It prophesizes that the majority of people are indifferent in their religious beliefs. They may sway either way depending on who is in power. It is the indifferent people who actually play a pivotal part in the final wars on Earth. These wars have already happened, they are happening and they will happen again. They eventually decide to overthrow the Beast.

My thoughts on the poll of how religious each country is that America is a young country. I wonder, if as it ages it will naturally start to become less religious.

www.cbc.ca/amp/1.1310451

The world's poorest nations are also some of its most religious – but does that mean religion can't flourish in a prosperous society?

[psyche101]

12 hours ago, zep73 said:

One that practices religious laws. Like islamic sharia.

That's a theocracy isn't it? 

Italy seems more a religious nation as I would understand it.

Might be a cross translation thing. That would be how I would define them though. 

[quiXilver]

10 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Well, it says on the back of a one dollar bill, "In God We Trust".

The 12 regional Reserve Banks—Located around the country, the 12 Federal Reserve Banks are chartered as private corporations. Employees are not civil service.

[+Desertrat56]

13 hours ago, zep73 said:

One that practices religious laws. Like islamic sharia.

I think Britan & Australia could be classified as religious nations, as they have religious classes in public school.

[+Desertrat56]

13 hours ago, Likely Guy said:

Is that it? Does the US consider themselves as a religious nation? Do any others?

No, it is not a religious nation, as the government is not founded on any religion like the UK.

[+Desertrat56]

12 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Zep

Given how many times he was stabbed would indicate to me that not everyone agreed

Or maybe they did,  

[+Sherapy]

10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That is true but only part of the truth.

Despite some claims to the contrary, religion and faith benefit people in every country.

It is true that  benefits are greater in countries where your religion/faith is the common one, but even if it is not, you are still better off statistically than non religious/ non believers from the same cohort ( in both physical and mental health outcomes )

feeling better is only a part of the psychological  advantage.

There are many other  medical outcomes which are improved by either faith or religious attendance. 

@LightAngel, @XenoFish @Kittens Are Jerks @Cookie Monster

Thank you all for your opinions.

 

Digging deeper, 

Psychology defines;  “Self esteem as the overall positive or negative evaluation that one has of themselves.”

“There are two types: trait-self esteem (long term) and state self esteem (which fluctuates). Trait self esteem is ones self regard across time and is generally stable.”

‘“State self esteem is not static it encompasses self evaluations that change all the time depending on the life situations or experiences.”

The caveat is self esteem is not a belief, it is an evaluation one has of themselves. 

 

Based on lots of research it turns out that low self esteem doesn’t appear to cause the negative situations or experiences attributed to it and the same applies to high self esteem, it doesn’t appear to cause the positive life situations either as you are offering. 
 

For example, low self esteem doesn’t cause depression it is the life events that do and in turn this is what can temporarily raise or lower ones self esteem. And, thanks to Xenofish who pointed out that once depression is addressed the self esteem (state) goes up.  Remember state self esteem fluctuates moment to moment based on the experiences and life circumstances. Thank you to Kittens are jerk who brought in state self esteem and thanks to Light Angel who added self esteem is a feeling. (trait self esteem).

While it is popular myth to suggest self esteem is the cause of all that ails us there just isn’t substantial evidence to show that self esteem in and of itself causes or solves anything. The studies that have looked at changing self esteem over time show that it is a result of certain experiences that contribute to the changes (ups and downs)  in people’s self-esteem across time, enter; Sociometer Theory. (SMT)

The present study investigated the hypothesis that in addition to perceptions of one's global self-worth as a person, individuals evaluate their self-worth differently across relational contexts

SMT states “that self-esteem is a gauge (an internal, psychological meter) that monitors the degree to which a person is being valued and accepted versus devalued and rejected by other people.” 
 

“The present study investigated the hypothesis that in addition to perceptions of one's global self-worth as a person, individuals evaluate their self-worth differently across relational contexts.”

https://fetzer.org/sites/default/files/images/stories/pdf/selfmeasures/Self_Measures_for_Self-Esteem_STATE_SELF-ESTEEM.pdf

In other words, due to our social natures ( as evidenced by living in groups and forming relationships) as @Cookie Monster pointed out being accepted/belonging (self esteem) has evolved as a human need.
 

Having a strong support system around one can make all the difference in ones ability to survive the situation, not feeling accepted would make survival and the circumstances a pain harder than needed and possibly trigger anxiety which could result in narcissism or self defeating expressions to cope, of course it depends on the ever changing situations one finds themselves in. 
 

As a caregiver, I do not observe much help from religion with state self esteem, or trait self esteem for that matter. I have observed the viability and effectiveness of a strong support system provided by flesh and blood humans, though. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

Drifting aimlessly back on topic ...

The underlying research is from 2012, and is only partially (one page) available from the publisher for free.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797611427045

However, the Word file that was accepted is available for free download (no legal red flag; this is typical academic practice in this century).

https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/210973/

(The link is on the right next to the head of the "abstract," with the "W" icon.)

On the specific question of "What is a religious country?" The dating site (eDarling) served 11 European countries, from which the study sample was drawn. How much "cultural" variation we're going to get within Europe is a concern, as is how much of that variation (e.g. Muslim vs. non-) is peculiar to the continent, or even captured in the survey for that matter.

In any case, there are three measures of country-level religiosity used:

Participant based (2)

For each country,

- average of responses to the personal religiosity question, “My personal religious beliefs are important to me” (1 = not at all, 7 = very much).

- average of respondents' "indicated interest in church involvement," not further described.

Polling based (1)

- the percentage of people in each country who answered “no” to the following 2007–2008 Gallup World Poll question: “Does religion occupy an important place in your life?” ("Religion in Europe," 2011, para. 2.1)

So, make of that what you will. It seems to me to be a tad remote from having "In God we trust" on your currency (or, for that matter, that Queen Elizabeth reigns by the grace of God, generally asserted in abbreviated Latin, that does or has appeared on currency elsewhere), or whether long ago the US Senate wished to assure the Barbary pirates that America wasn't a Christian country (while buying a few years before defeating the pirates militarily).

[+Liquid Gardens]

15 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

The caveat is self esteem is not a belief, it is an evaluation one has of themselves.

That's a good point, and is what came to mind with the earlier with the mention of 'patting yourself on the bac'k for being religious.  I agree with DR that to have self-esteem doesn't require 'reasons' like this, I'm sure some people are simply wired for high self-esteem, and I think this is what you noted as 'trait/long term self esteem'.  However 'state self esteem' does seem to involve a self-evaluation, so as part of that process I can see 'I'm religious' as being something to increase that kind of self-esteem for some people.

[+Sherapy]

24 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That's a good point, and is what came to mind with the earlier with the mention of 'patting yourself on the bac'k for being religious.  I agree with DR that to have self-esteem doesn't require 'reasons' like this, I'm sure some people are simply wired for high self-esteem, and I think this is what you noted as 'trait/long term self esteem'.  However 'state self esteem' does seem to involve a self-evaluation, so as part of that process I can see 'I'm religious' as being something to increase that kind of self-esteem for some people.

Hmmm, Good point, refinement on distinguishing state and trait self esteem. In rethinking it I have observed that “ I have god” is a typical response in the life events that one feels unsupported or doesn’t feel a sense of belonging. I attribute the fluctuating nature of state self esteem somewhat like a bandaid to help one cope thru the situation, not unlike the narcissist who goes over the top with how great they are or reaching for support from ones group, or my own personal approach is I push thru the fluctuations or see them as opportunities for growth etc. etc. Your thoughts, feedback, refinements are greatly appreciated by me. 
 

Yesterday a patient said to me “I am so alone, but not alone cuz I have god even though I am undeserving.”  
 

I love the point you made on trait self esteem and I think childhood experiences and early attachment contribute to ones trait self esteem being higher or lower. My middle son works with severely abused teenage girls and attachment theory plays a huge role in an overall ability to survive. 
 

Also, it seems when a person evaluates themselves as not belonging is when it gets interesting on the coping styles they use. Thank you again, for your thoughts. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, quiXilver said:

The 12 regional Reserve Banks—Located around the country, the 12 Federal Reserve Banks are chartered as private corporations. Employees are not civil service.

Chartered by the Government to produce Government items, the same Government with a prayer chapel in the capital building.

https://www.churchpop.com/2016/01/10/congressional-prayer-room-us-capitol/

[Duke Wellington]

What is self-esteem?

Well we develop an identity during childhood (who we see ourselves as being). If we then encounter someone who says something negative about us that conflicts with our identity, we reject it.

Self-esteem issues arise when we didnt develop that stable identity and is usually due to psychological/emotional abusive parenting. It means we dont filter out the negativity we encounter. As such, a person with this type of identity disorder focuses on gaining validation. That is other people telling them positive things about themselves while not saying anything negative. Thats Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Or as I prefer to call it bi-polar with their identity. Their identity is constantly pulled here, there, and everywhere, causing them moments of perfect God like delusional thinking followed by moments of deep despair. Religion has nothing to do with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. 

All psychopaths are narcissistic, and then there are the people with just the narcissism. Both seek out validation. This can be gained in many ways and can include a range of options from being religious (to gain moral perfection) to being politicians (to gain power and thereby confirm perfection). But we are dealing with a small percentage of the population. Most people who are religious are not psychopaths or suffering from NPD.

[XenoFish]

How is religion not egocentric? Devout individuals place themselves as being important enough that God will listen to them. All actions they take are driving by the reward center of their brain (I will get into heave if (insert thing here)).

[+Hammerclaw]

26 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

How is religion not egocentric? Devout individuals place themselves as being important enough that God will listen to them. All actions they take are driving by the reward center of their brain (I will get into heave if (insert thing here)).

No, it's humbling yourself and hoping God will hear you, hoping there is a God to hear you and never having confirmation of any sort, only hope. It's not about being important, it's about tiny, insignificant little things crying out for help, all alone in the private darkness of their own souls. When someone you love is dying and you can't bear to let them go and in your heart you're crying out for any help, any help at all to save them, then, maybe, you'll understand what it's really like to be "religious".

Edited October 20, 2021 by Hammerclaw