Self Esteem and Religion

[zep73]

4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

That's a theocracy isn't it? 

Italy seems more a religious nation as I would understand it.

Might be a cross translation thing. That would be how I would define them though. 

You're right, that's the technical term.

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Isn't that still ego driven? Even at the lowest point still believing that God will help. Place all hopes upon something when you're powerless and then expecting results of some type. 

Remember hammer, I was an occultist. Me communing with a God is nothing. I understand the magical thinking it takes. I also understand that a terribly finite creature will wish to bend reality to their will. Power for the powerless. 

This is an interesting article. Along the lines of what Hammer offered. I apologize It is a lot to read. 
 

My point is this, as  a caregiver, I have been amazed by the lack of god approach even when traditionally the person grew up with religion at the end of ones life, I have been on a variety of cases and had opportunity to talk to many and ask their position on god In a nut shell, that while there are some good reasons to adopt a fantasy attachment figure at times in ones life typically as one gets older they drop the fantasy, unless one is dealing with times of stress such as illnesses or a death or other challenging situations can bring. 

 

Research points to the fact, that people are more prone to relate to God in difficult life situations

that have a negative context (Hood, Spilka, Hunsberger, & Gorsuch, 1996). Since people turn

to prayer to God and not to the church as an organization, we can see the importance of this

relationship. We can also see its importance as a way of activating bonding, and the choice of

coping strategies. Experiencing loss, which activates bonding behaviour, is also associated with

an increased incidence of religious behaviour. (Kirkpatrick, 2005).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/346922667_God_as_an_Attachment_Figure_and_Psychological_Power_of_Bonding

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Sherapy

[lightly]

 I think maybe people adopt 'religious'/ spiritual beliefs...to feel like they/we are not alone?   A search for love and acceptance ? ..and maybe protection for ourselves and Loved ones. .. It eases our fears?     (like mama used to?).  ..

       ...  To feel worthy of LOVE ..is to have a comforting level of self esteem?   

Atheists don't need anything. .there is nothing above them.     But, disgusting egos are a widely shared human trait.?  

[+Desertrat56]

9 minutes ago, lightly said:

 I think maybe people adopt 'religious'/ spiritual beliefs...to feel like they/we are not alone?   A search for love and acceptance ? ..and maybe protection for ourselves and Loved ones. .. It eases our fears?     (like mama used to?).  ..

       ...  To feel worthy of LOVE ..is to have a comforting level of self esteem?   

Atheists don't need anything. .there is nothing above them.     But, disgusting egos are a widely shared human trait.?  

I don't know, my aunt tormented herself, feeling like she was not a good person (though she really was) because her religion set standards that are unattainable. She was a normal person with errors in judgment and bad habits but she could never forgive herself for them because of her beliefs.   It is a miserable way to live.   We all live inside our heads for the most part so choosing to follow a religion that gives you no support in being human is a very hard blow to self esteem.  Her religion was trained in to her since she was born, it wasn't her choice until she was older and then she did explore other things but always went back to the one she was raised in because of her low self esteem.   She was a member of Mensa, she was a CPA, very smart, and very kind, but very hard on herself.  Her religion did not make her feel accepted, it made her want to hide her true self.   My  mother and her other sister were angry at god and the religion they were raised with for the same reason.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Desertrat56

[+Hammerclaw]

Belief, religion and God are how the living cope with death. For the dying, death is no longer hypothetical, on a personal level, and requires a measure of fatalism and acceptance to cope. Stories, however inspiring, no longer suffice. One commits oneself to the God of one's people and closes one's eyes, never to open them again. One will never know if Faith was but a fool's hope.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[lightly]

 yup..very good points Desert.    Guilt and fear.. and a sence of unworthiness happens too.    Strict adherence to most Religions  is basically impossible. ?   Most are complex and confusing.

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by lightly

[+Sherapy]

27 minutes ago, lightly said:

 I think maybe people adopt 'religious'/ spiritual beliefs...to feel like they/we are not alone?   A search for love and acceptance ? ..and maybe protection for ourselves and Loved ones. .. It eases our fears?     (like mama used to?).  ..

       ...  To feel worthy of LOVE ..is to have a comforting level of self esteem?   

Atheists don't need anything. .there is nothing above them.     But, disgusting egos are a widely shared human trait.?  

I wouldn’t say that Atheists need nothing, You know Buddhists are said to be Atheists too. 

 As a caregiver, I take self care, my own health and well being serious, this involves MBSMT, basically, stress mgt. therapy. In my early green days of caregiving I observed in myself that I didn’t have the stress mgt tools or knowledge to be as effective as my patients deserved, In a practical sense, I got the education, the stress mgt skills/tools  and the education appropriate for my type of speciality, Parkinson’s and dementia, I even took challenging jobs to learn and grow in ways that now make my job a delight, I also have the appropriate support one should have to do this kind of work guided by compassion and empathy. I also am aware of my own triggers and have tools to address the things that come up from vicarious traumatization that is common when working with the chronically ill or those that don’t want to live.  In any front line type of work one needs to do their homework albeit by feet to the fire or for a bigger reason over and beyond themselves.  For me, I wanted to truly help and comfort and was willing to do what it took to do that.. My husband is a wonderful source of support, but only to a point because he doesn’t do this kind of work. So one needs to have a support system that helps in a multitude of ways. Nothing is one stop shop.
 

I truly didn’t choose religion as a coping path as it wasn’t practical for my needs not that I didn’t or wouldn’t consider it. Mindfulness is a much better fit, for me. I am not  opposed to help wherever it comes from or whom. For ex: I would consider your feedback due to your high level of self awareness, honesty and ability to be vulnerable. 
 

My intent is not to bash religion but to explore it for viability. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

26 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I don't know, my aunt tormented herself, feeling like she was not a good person (though she really was) because her religion set standards that are unattainable. She was a normal person with errors in judgment and bad habits but she could never forgive herself for them because of her beliefs.   It is a miserable way to live.   We all live inside our heads for the most part so choosing to follow a religion that gives you no support in being human is a very hard blow to self esteem.  Her religion was trained in to her since she was born, it wasn't her choice until she was older and then she did explore other things but always went back to the one she was raised in because of her low self esteem.   She was a member of Mensa, she was a CPA, very smart, and very kind, but very hard on herself.  Her religion did not make her feel accepted, it made her want to hide her true self.   My  mother and her other sister were angry at god and the religion they were raised with for the same reason.

That must have been so hard on you to see your sweet Aunt suffer so. In my mind ones path should be an asset for personal growth not a hinderance, not make it worse. My poor mom turned to god too, she had two mental breakdowns and was an most of her life.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

23 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Belief, religion and God are how the living cope with death. For the dying, death is no longer hypothetical, on a personal level, and requires a measure of fatalism and acceptance to cope. Stories, however inspiring, no longer suffice. One commits oneself to the God of one's people and closes one's eyes, never to open them again. One will never know if Faith was but a fool's hope.

Thinking of your momma, John. She was so blessed to have you as her son.

[+Desertrat56]

2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

That must have been so hard on you to see your sweet Aunt suffer so. In my mind ones path should be an asset not a hinderance. My poor mom turned to god too, had two mental breakdowns and was an alcoholic. 

My aunt got cancer young and before that had a lot of physical issues.   She let con artists take her money and other things because she thought she was helping people.  Of all my mother's family she was the best with children.  When her son in law's family joined a cult, she joined too, or would have except her husband saw it for what it was and women had no say in anything in that cult so if he didn't join, she couldn't.   Two of her daughters joined, the one married to her son in law and one who seemed to have it together, but was really just lost.   That cousin died of cancer with  no medical treatment because that was against the rules of the cult.  The other cousin and her husband left but not until the leader died and his two sons spilt the group.  My aunt had died long before that and the two that were in the cult did not come to her funeral.  

[lightly]

18 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I wouldn’t say that Atheists need nothing, You know Buddhists are said to be Atheists too. 

 As a caregiver, I take self care, my own health and well being serious, 
 

   Good.     ..because you've chosen a very hard path.   (dunno how you do it!).  .   ..it's wonderful that you help people.  Strength and Peace to you Sherapy.  

[+Sherapy]

14 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

My aunt got cancer young and before that had a lot of physical issues.   She let con artists take her money and other things because she thought she was helping people.  Of all my mother's family she was the best with children.  When her son in law's family joined a cult, she joined too, or would have except her husband saw it for what it was and women had no say in anything in that cult so if he didn't join, she couldn't.   Two of her daughters joined, the one married to her son in law and one who seemed to have it together, but was really just lost.   That cousin died of cancer with  no medical treatment because that was against the rules of the cult.  The other cousin and her husband left but not until the leader died and his two sons spilt the group.  My aunt had died long before that and the two that were in the cult did not come to her funeral.  

 

The lack of medical care concerns me too. My mom had a lump in her breast for along time before she sought medical advice, she opted out of a mastectomy which she needed and got a lumpectomy instead, long story short 4 years later the cancer was in her lungs and she let that go for months it wasn’t until my step dad had his Dr. friend call her and get her to the hospital ASAP. She literally couldn’t breathe for months. Thank goodness she was in the hospital the last days of her life. The thought of her suffering more was more than I could bare at the time. My ex husband was similar super religious and with it came a complete lack of regard for his health he had heart disease and refused to do one thing the Dr. suggested. He also had been a lifelong Atheist who converted and did old things quit his job, blew through his retirement and left a lot of debt for his sons.  He thought his imaginary god was gonna take care of things. He had a massive stroke on the job left behind sons who miss him and are still angry he behaved the way he did, they feel he was selfish. Both, had great medical insurance too. On the flip side, an Athiest patient of mine a hellion we called her hell on wheels never missed a doctors appt  and we were routinely in emergency with her. Go figure.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Desertrat56]

7 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 

The lack of medical care concerns me too. My mom had a lump in her breast for along time before she sought medical advice, she opted out of a mastectomy which she needed and got a lumpectomy instead, long story short 4 years later the cancer was in her lungs and she let that go for months it wasn’t until my step dad had his Dr. friend call her and get her to the hospital ASAP. She literally couldn’t breathe for months. Thank goodness she was in the hospital the last days of her life. The thought of her suffering more was more than I could bare at the time. My ex husband was similar super religious and with it came a complete lack of regard for his health he had heart disease and refused to do one thing the Dr. suggested. He had a massive stroke on the job left behind sons who miss him and are still angry he behaved the way he did, they feel he was selfish. Both, had great medical insurance too. On the flip side, an Athiest patient of mine a hellion we called her hell on wheels never missed a doctors appt  and we were routinely in emergency with her. Go figure.

Yeah, my cousin has a PHD in parmacological research and at the time he was working on his PHD my aunt mentioned she had problems.  One problem was the small town she lived in the doctors were only general practitioners and going for tests or to a  specialist was a hardship for a lot of people, they misdiagnosed a lot of stuff.  My aunt's husband got transferred to Anchorage for work and that is when we were told she had breast cancer, and she wasn't going to do anything ("god's will") but her son and her husband made her go to Baylor in Houston where my cousin was going to school and after that she got treatment.   It was many years but eventually went into the rest of her body.   I remember when she wrote a letter to my mother right after the first diagnosis and saying it was god's will for her to die and it made my mother so angry.   I think it scared my cousin and he talked to the doctors he was training with.

I'm sorry to hear about your mother and your ex husband.   I am not so sure religion is a correlation for people not going to the doctor though.   I have had so many bad experiences with doctors that I am usually reluctant, I figure out what I need and do my best to take care of it; however if it were a lump in my breast that did not go away, I would go to a doctor.   I do have skin issues that I go to a dermatologist for.    

Edited October 20, 2021 by Desertrat56

[+Sherapy]

6 minutes ago, lightly said:

   Good.     ..because you've chosen a very hard path.   (dunno how you do it!).  .   ..it's wonderful that you help people.  Strength and Peace to you Sherapy.  

Exactly, I am currently in training to run a support group to serve as a role model for other caregivers to find effective ways to advocate and raise awareness on the reality of not taking care of oneself. Do you know how many caregivers I meet that are stressed out, burnt out and have no self care plan in place. The majority, hopefully I can help show this can be done with the right tools. The issue is getting people to listen 

[+Sherapy]

24 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yeah, my cousin has a PHD in parmacological research and at the time he was working on his PHD my aunt mentioned she had problems.  One problem was the small town she lived in the doctors were only general practitioners and going for tests or to a  specialist was a hardship for a lot of people, they misdiagnosed a lot of stuff.  My aunt's husband got transferred to Anchorage for work and that is when we were told she had breast cancer, and she wasn't going to do anything ("god's will) but her son and her husband made her go to Baylor in Houston where my cousin was going to school and after that she got treatment.   It was many years but eventually went into the rest of her body.

I'm sorry to hear about your mother and your ex husband.   I am not so sure religion is a correlation for people not going to the doctor though.   I have had so many bad experiences with doctors that I am usually reluctant, I figure out what I need and do my best to take care of it; however if it were a lump in my breast that did not go away, I would go to a doctor.   I do have skin issues that I go to a dermatologist for.    

It sounds like you address the serious stuff. I don’t run to the doctor for everything but I do work for 2 doctors and a lot of things are common sense, I have learned. I am specifically addressing known health issues or serious things. 

 

I also have to say albeit it isn’t the majority but those that do take their health serious and change doctors as warranted seem to do well regardless, of situation. Even Dr.s look for good doctors and recommend them to each other. I see seeking a good doctor plain ole good sense.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Thinking of your momma, John. She was so blessed to have you as her son.

Always thinking of you, a dear mother yourself, whose sons are so blessed.

[+Sherapy]

6 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Always thinking of you, a dear mother yourself, whose sons are so blessed.

Thank you my sweet friend. 

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

This is about religion and self esteem. Perhaps start your own thread on the medical outcomes that are improved by religion so we don’t veer too far off of the track. 

lol Self esteem goes to a person's psychological make up  

Their psychological make up is strongly influenced by their beliefs and faith

Thus belief   and faith can have a powerful positive effect on mental and physical health  (and occasionally a negative effect ) 

In the people I know, their belief and faith makes them more confident, happy, less anxious and depressed 

Medical science indicates similar benefits for over 84% of believers 

Its all connected.

I know you  would love to shut me up and not hear my opinions .    

[+Liquid Gardens]

3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

For the dying, death is no longer hypothetical, on a personal level, and requires a measure of fatalism and acceptance to cope. Stories, however inspiring, no longer suffice.

That brought to mind some things I've read about experiments with terminally ill people and psychedelics and the help with anxiety and depression those have provided to some.  It looks like most experiments with the terminally ill have been done with shrooms and I don't think they are clear on how exactly it helps, some of the descriptions by patients have a little bit of a hippy-dippy flavor to them, which is to be expected with trying to describe the ineffable.  What I think is interesting is that at least in other psychedelic experiments, such as treatments for mental illnesses or syndromes, part of the therapeutic portion of the 'semi-typical' psychedelic experience, when achieved, is the deep realization/recognition of a certain sort of unity between everything, that death is just part of a larger process, and for some an all-out temporary dissolution of the self.  Just ironic-ish that having higher self-esteem I would think in general probably provides therapeutic benefits on its own, yet there is indication that the opposite of self-esteem, the temporary disappearance of the self, can also have lasting benefits.  The takeaway seems to be, 'if you're going to bother with a self at all, at least feel good about it'.

I don't disagree that inspiring stories can leave many wanting but I'm less skeptical about the power of a fundamental change of perspective.  Psychedelics may not be the best way to achieve that but there's no denying that for better or worse they do reliably provide a perspective change.  (And to be clear a big part of this kind of treatment is prepping for the experience with doctors and establishing the setting and professionally guiding it; there are no scientific experiments yet that suggest shrooming and putting on some Allman Brothers, turning on the black light, and laughing uncontrollably for a while at cartoons is an activity that provides any lasting therapeutic benefits. Yet.)

[XenoFish]

I can fully understand faith and devotion to a spiritual or religion belief, if that belief is focused on comfort. In some ideologies it appears that their god is some active force. Say a prayer get a prize. I get it from an internal perspective. Just like I did with magick. Never saw much of the "What the frick just happened" stuff. 

[Mr Walker]

8 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think Britan & Australia could be classified as religious nations, as they have religious classes in public school.

While Australia is officially  a secular country that word (legally and culturally)  means something different here

In our constitution it means that there will be no ONE,  STATE, religion but that all religions will be equal, as will atheism  Thus,  the govt. funds church schools, and about 25% of student attend church schools 

Britain has an official state religion, and so is not secular. 

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Isn't that still ego driven? Even at the lowest point still believing that God will help. Place all hopes upon something when you're powerless and then expecting results of some type. 

Remember hammer, I was an occultist. Me communing with a God is nothing. I understand the magical thinking it takes. I also understand that a terribly finite creature will wish to bend reality to their will. Power for the powerless. 

The human  mind is evolved to believe and have faith

 It is a survival characteristic 

You can see it as ego driven, with some justification, but basically it is about survival happiness and prosperity  (Not material but emotional)  

Without some  ego we would not survive, and yes, faith contributes to ego.  It is a part of who a human being is 

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

A pray is merely a request for divine assistance. There is still a selfish desire at the heart of it. Even if said prayer is for another. A wish that one seek to have fulfilled. 

Granted I understand there are levels of believers. From the thoughtful to the self-righteous. 

Why do you see praying  for (or indeed helping) others, as selfish 

It might be, but with many people it is not.

It comes from  altruism, and a desire to help others,( often  with no reward for self )  if a child is taught to think this way, the y will probably be kind, giving, and self  less all their life.

  It is not even about feeling good.

It is about doing what is right, and living by an ethical code, because that code is constructive and   produces the best outcomes for the most people.

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I don't know, my aunt tormented herself, feeling like she was not a good person (though she really was) because her religion set standards that are unattainable. She was a normal person with errors in judgment and bad habits but she could never forgive herself for them because of her beliefs.   It is a miserable way to live.   We all live inside our heads for the most part so choosing to follow a religion that gives you no support in being human is a very hard blow to self esteem.  Her religion was trained in to her since she was born, it wasn't her choice until she was older and then she did explore other things but always went back to the one she was raised in because of her low self esteem.   She was a member of Mensa, she was a CPA, very smart, and very kind, but very hard on herself.  Her religion did not make her feel accepted, it made her want to hide her true self.   My  mother and her other sister were angry at god and the religion they were raised with for the same reason.

This explains your pov., and i agree with this post 

In this case either the religion was toxic, or your aunt had something in her character which took on board only the worst/destructive  elements of the religion

Didn't her faith teach her that she was forgiven her "sins and human failings" by the grace of Christ's sacrifice.?

Or wasn't she able to believe this. ie she felt guilty /bad.  

The latter  is common with people who were poorly parented, and made to feel bad/worthless by their parents.

In some cases this    results in suicide, and often in a miserable life, with or without religious belief 

The y can never believe the y are good, worthy, human beings  deserving of love and respect   despite any flaws of character they might have .

Such parents can be deeply religious, atheists,  or agnostic .

 

[eight bits]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

yet there is indication that the opposite of self-esteem, the temporary disappearance of the self, can also have lasting benefits. 

I wonder if what "disappears" are "persona(e)," "masks," an aspect of the self that is presented socially, often more-or-less necessary to fulfill a role (professional demeanor, judicial temperament, bedside manner ... are all occupation-related personae).

Language is not easy here, as you mention.

I think an iconic representation of these ideas is the character of Odo from Deep Space 9. He "couldn't hold his 'shape'" for more than several hours, that shape being his "social self (and occupation-related shapes)." Early in the series, he would simply liquify into a plain bucket in order to restore himself - he didn't go away, his shape did. As the series progressed, he became more ambitious in the shapes he explored privately (as opposed to those besides his "usual" shape which he assumed temporarily to further his job). That's a powerful image of an expanded self (something has disappeared, masks, but what's left is still self, now still conscious and less restricted than in ordinary situations).

Of course, eventually he rediscovers his native habitat, The Great Link, which offers its own version of a self expanded by being in another sense lost.

It's all still ineffable, but I really do think that the story arc of Odo is a vehicle to reason through some of the paradoxes of expanded and constrained selfhood. I wouldn't be surprised if some of DS9's writers were Jungians.