Self Esteem and Religion

[+Sherapy]

38 minutes ago, eight bits said:

I wonder if what "disappears" are "persona(e)," "masks," an aspect of the self that is presented socially, often more-or-less necessary to fulfill a role (professional demeanor, judicial temperament, bedside manner ... are all occupation-related personae).

Language is not easy here, as you mention.

I think an iconic representation of these ideas is the character of Odo from Deep Space 9. He "couldn't hold his 'shape'" for more than several hours, that shape being his "social self (and occupation-related shapes)." Early in the series, he would simply liquify into a plain bucket in order to restore himself - he didn't go away, his shape did. As the series progressed, he became more ambitious in the shapes he explored privately (as opposed to those besides his "usual" shape which he assumed temporarily to further his job). That's a powerful image of an expanded self (something has disappeared, masks, but what's left is still self, now still conscious and less restricted than in ordinary situations).

Of course, eventually he rediscovers his native habitat, The Great Link, which offers its own version of a self expanded by being in another sense lost.

It's all still ineffable, but I really do think that the story arc of Odo is a vehicle to reason through some of the paradoxes of expanded and constrained selfhood. I wouldn't be surprised if some of DS9's writers were Jungians.

Love this. Excellent food for thought. And, so interesting. Thank you to you and LG. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Liquid Gardens]

20 minutes ago, eight bits said:

I wonder if what "disappears" are "persona(e)," "masks," an aspect of the self that is presented socially, often more-or-less necessary to fulfill a role (professional demeanor, judicial temperament, bedside manner ... are all occupation-related personae).

That makes sense for a large number of situations I'd think, it's odd in a way that there seems to sometimes be such suffering for people that derives, a lot of times I think unknowingly, from the maintenance of these masks.  As well as the lack of recognition that you're wearing a mask at all, and the confusion of thinking the mask is actually you.  Agreed for most people there is a certain amount of masking necessary just to have an occupation and obviously the need for income can be a legitimate source of stress, but since the masks are constructed by us they tend to be idealized, sometimes beyond anyone's ability to live up to.

29 minutes ago, eight bits said:

I think an iconic representation of these ideas is the character of Odo from Deep Space 9.

My in-depth Trek knowledge stops abruptly at TNG currently, although DS9 is on the list to watch.  I think I am somewhat familiar with Odo though, it sounds similar to the character Mystique from the Xmen movies who can assume the shape and voice of any human I believe, although there wasn't any casual exploration by her of her shapes and she had a definite base shape/appearance unlike possibly Odo it sounds like.

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That brought to mind some things I've read about experiments with terminally ill people and psychedelics and the help with anxiety and depression those have provided to some.  It looks like most experiments with the terminally ill have been done with shrooms and I don't think they are clear on how exactly it helps, some of the descriptions by patients have a little bit of a hippy-dippy flavor to them, which is to be expected with trying to describe the ineffable.  What I think is interesting is that at least in other psychedelic experiments, such as treatments for mental illnesses or syndromes, part of the therapeutic portion of the 'semi-typical' psychedelic experience, when achieved, is the deep realization/recognition of a certain sort of unity between everything, that death is just part of a larger process, and for some an all-out temporary dissolution of the self.  Just ironic-ish that having higher self-esteem I would think in general probably provides therapeutic benefits on its own, yet there is indication that the opposite of self-esteem, the temporary disappearance of the self, can also have lasting benefits.  The takeaway seems to be, 'if you're going to bother with a self at all, at least feel good about it'.

I don't disagree that inspiring stories can leave many wanting but I'm less skeptical about the power of a fundamental change of perspective.  Psychedelics may not be the best way to achieve that but there's no denying that for better or worse they do reliably provide a perspective change.  (And to be clear a big part of this kind of treatment is prepping for the experience with doctors and establishing the setting and professionally guiding it; there are no scientific experiments yet that suggest shrooming and putting on some Allman Brothers, turning on the black light, and laughing uncontrollably for a while at cartoons is an activity that provides any lasting therapeutic benefits. Yet.)

Love this!

Edited October 21, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

10 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That brought to mind some things I've read about experiments with terminally ill people and psychedelics and the help with anxiety and depression those have provided to some.  It looks like most experiments with the terminally ill have been done with shrooms and I don't think they are clear on how exactly it helps, some of the descriptions by patients have a little bit of a hippy-dippy flavor to them, which is to be expected with trying to describe the ineffable.  What I think is interesting is that at least in other psychedelic experiments, such as treatments for mental illnesses or syndromes, part of the therapeutic portion of the 'semi-typical' psychedelic experience, when achieved, is the deep realization/recognition of a certain sort of unity between everything, that death is just part of a larger process, and for some an all-out temporary dissolution of the self.  Just ironic-ish that having higher self-esteem I would think in general probably provides therapeutic benefits on its own, yet there is indication that the opposite of self-esteem, the temporary disappearance of the self, can also have lasting benefits.  The takeaway seems to be, 'if you're going to bother with a self at all, at least feel good about it'.

I don't disagree that inspiring stories can leave many wanting but I'm less skeptical about the power of a fundamental change of perspective.  Psychedelics may not be the best way to achieve that but there's no denying that for better or worse they do reliably provide a perspective change.  (And to be clear a big part of this kind of treatment is prepping for the experience with doctors and establishing the setting and professionally guiding it; there are no scientific experiments yet that suggest shrooming and putting on some Allman Brothers, turning on the black light, and laughing uncontrollably for a while at cartoons is an activity that provides any lasting therapeutic benefits. Yet.)

No, my point was hypothetical gods and afterlife promises and religious morality tales of sin and redemption are all fine and good for the living. When you're dying or think you are, they're not something on your mind. You're afraid, but are resigned to the futility of fear and escaping a reality you're about to depart is furthest from your mind. You commit yourself to God or the unknown, sinking into the unconsciousness of sleep, thinking you may never know consciousness again. This is how it was for me, when I accidentally overdosed on medication, thinking my heart was going and I was dying. 

[+Hammerclaw]

8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Love this. Excellent food for thought. And, so interesting. Thank you to you and LG. 

We put on different faces for different pathways and people in our lives, often not realizing how we do so, especially when young, until that awkward moment when two different paths of our lives intersect. This is a phase most people grow out of, over time as, their different aspects coalesce into a comfortable self. 

[+Sherapy]

17 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol Self esteem goes to a person's psychological make up  

Their psychological make up is strongly influenced by their beliefs and faith

Thus belief   and faith can have a powerful positive effect on mental and physical health  (and occasionally a negative effect ) 

In the people I know, their belief and faith makes them more confident, happy, less anxious and depressed 

Medical science indicates similar benefits for over 84% of believers 

Its all connected.

I know you  would love to shut me up and not hear my opinions .    

Medical Science does suggest that regular church attendance can mimic the benefits of a support system, yet, so does having a great partner, great friends, great family, a pet. The point is social engagement, having things to look forward to, having love and affection regularly, having someone who just cares about you genuinely, listens to you, just having someone want to hear what you say etc etc works, the idea behind god fantasies that is appealing is having the sense that your ride and die people are there for you, listens to you and together you will help each other thru with loving support, comfort and, whatever it takes.
 

In my travels, doing caregiving work (in different settings/ frames) from in home, to board and cares, to large facilities, senior communities -god is not a replacement for anything nor does a belief in and of itself bestow the benefits you tout, god constructs can suffice as ones chosen coping system a way to motivate oneself to reassess ones health care plan and then implement the changes, and there are as many variations on this as there are beliefs; but, at the end of the day depending on the action a person takes behaviorally, in conjunction with their baseline health this will determine what and if there are benefits. 
 

Using your SDA affiliation there are longtitudal studies that do show that consistently, diligently over time following the recommended eating guidelines can be beneficial to maintain good health, which might add to ones longevity, the bigger point is quality of life, it is absurd to think that one can reverse dementia and live forever with faith in god, instead one aims for quality of life under the circumstances they are in. Many diets will suffice SDA isn’t the top one anyway but a quality one none-the-less. In other words, one can’t just believe and have faith to garner benefits. Practical application is the key!
 

These days living a healthy lifestyle is referred to as a Blue Zone lifestyle, this is the lifestyle my hubby and I follow, and have modified to our tastes, our kitchen, our food choices, our exercise requirements and stress mgt. needs, our emotional needs are known and met. We have also incorporated intermittent fasting into our plan per doctors recommendations. My point is we practice consistently in real time and the greatest motivational factor is how we feel, for another it might be to please the god character, for another it might be looking great in their clothes or desirable to the live interest of their choice etc. etc. Motivation can be found anywhere and it is only as viable as it is applied.
 

For ex: I have been fortunate to work with a doctor in the care of his wife who has Parkinson’s and he too has had health things he had a valve replacement, yet in spite of this there is not a better example for me of walking the talk then these two, this Dr., guided me and my husband step by step to where we are today.I even take cooking lessons from a Blue  Zone chef.  Hands down it isn’t about believing or having faith in god, no one needs to and this doctor believes in god as does his wife, but he applies the Hippocrates oath “Do No Harm” and the findings from his extensive medical career, he still works full-time he is 86. it is about the choices one makes, and the things they do or don’t do. As Doc says most of us are gonna get something there is no need to complicate it by holding on to unhealthy habits as it only makes things worse. His wife 13 years with Parkinson’s is my hero, I go to PT with her amongst other things and she doesn’t love to exercise, but she does it, she does everything possible and recommended to make the most of her circumstances and she is thriving. If a god construct motivates someone to take care of themselves than that is great, but it isn’t needed and unless backed with action it is meaningless. Faith in and of itself does little without a plan.

 

All the best to you and your wife. God speed to good health choices for quality of life.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Sherapy

[jmccr8]

I can't speak for anyone else but for me it is a process of self evaluation, change and acceptance

[pallidin]

Just a thought... Without ANY form of religion are we reduced to unbridled narcissism.

[+Sherapy]

7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I can't speak for anyone else but for me it is a process of self evaluation, change and acceptance

Can you elaborate? I am always interested in your thoughts.

[+Desertrat56]

2 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Just a thought... Without ANY form of religion are we reduced to unbridled narcissism.

Are you saying you think that all people who have no religion are narcissists?  

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Just a thought... Without ANY form of religion are we reduced to unbridled narcissism.

Do you think it take religion to be selfless? 

[+Sherapy]

5 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Just a thought... Without ANY form of religion are we reduced to unbridled narcissism.

It does seem that altruism in part is genetic.

[pallidin]

1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

Are you saying you think that all people who have no religion are narcissists?  

Well, IMHO, which may or may not be correct... YES.

[+Desertrat56]

5 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Well, IMHO, which may or may not be correct... YES.

Do you know any atheists or are you guessing based on your religious training?

[pallidin]

Desert, just guessing. Limited experience with religion or cults excepting through news.

[+Desertrat56]

3 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Desert, just guessing. Limited experience with religion or cults excepting through news.

So, you are not religious?  If so, do you think you are narcissistic?   Do you help people, or are you hedonistic?  Of course hedonistic is not the same as narcissistic.    I just am curious of what your reference is, do you think only religious people create charities and help people when they  need it and are concerned with the well being of others?   Maybe I am misunderstanding your comment about being narcissistic without religion.   

[jmccr8]

52 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Can you elaborate? I am always interested in your thoughts.

Hi Sheri

We both know that I have a past and in that life there was corruption, manipulation and intimidation I am the only one that had to know who I was and spent a lot of time looking at how I could live that in that life without letting it become my life. I really don't want to go into it in any depth but I am the only one that needs to know who I am and have spent years working on me and will continue to do so.

Edited October 21, 2021 by jmccr8

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Medical Science does suggest that regular church attendance can mimic the benefits of a support system, yet, so does having a great partner, great friends, great family, a pet. The point is social engagement, having things to look forward to, having love and affection regularly, having someone who just cares about you genuinely, listens to you, just having someone want to hear what you say etc etc works, the idea behind god fantasies that is appealing is having the sense that your ride and die people are there for you, listens to you and together you will help each other thru with loving support, comfort and, whatever it takes.
 

In my travels, doing caregiving work (in different settings/ frames) from in home, to board and cares, to large facilities, senior communities -god is not a replacement for anything nor does a belief in and of itself bestow the benefits you tout, god constructs can suffice as ones chosen coping system a way to motivate oneself to reassess ones health care plan and then implement the changes, and there are as many variations on this as there are beliefs; but, at the end of the day depending on the action a person takes behaviorally, in conjunction with their baseline health this will determine what and if there are benefits. 
 

Using your SDA affiliation there are longtitudal studies that do show that consistently, diligently over time following the recommended eating guidelines can be beneficial to maintain good health, which might add to ones longevity, the bigger point is quality of life, it is absurd to think that one can reverse dementia and live forever with faith in god, instead one aims for quality of life under the circumstances they are in. Many diets will suffice SDA isn’t the top one anyway but a quality one none-the-less. In other words, one can’t just believe and have faith to garner benefits. Practical application is the key!
 

These days living a healthy lifestyle is referred to as a Blue Zone lifestyle, this is the lifestyle my hubby and I follow, and have modified to our tastes, our kitchen, our food choices, our exercise requirements and stress mgt. needs, our emotional needs are known and met. We have also incorporated intermittent fasting into our plan per doctors recommendations. My point is we practice consistently in real time and the greatest motivational factor is how we feel, for another it might be to please the god character, for another it might be looking great in their clothes or desirable to the live interest of their choice etc. etc. Motivation can be found anywhere and it is only as viable as it is applied.
 

For ex: I have been fortunate to work with a doctor in the care of his wife who has Parkinson’s and he too has had health things he had a valve replacement, yet in spite of this there is not a better example for me of walking the talk then these two, this Dr., guided me and my husband step by step to where we are today.I even take cooking lessons from a Blue  Zone chef.  Hands down it isn’t about believing or having faith in god, no one needs to and this doctor believes in god as does his wife, but he applies the Hippocrates oath “Do No Harm” and the findings from his extensive medical career, he still works full-time he is 86. it is about the choices one makes, and the things they do or don’t do. As Doc says most of us are gonna get something there is no need to complicate it by holding on to unhealthy habits as it only makes things worse. His wife 13 years with Parkinson’s is my hero, I go to PT with her amongst other things and she doesn’t love to exercise, but she does it, she does everything possible and recommended to make the most of her circumstances and she is thriving. If a god construct motivates someone to take care of themselves than that is great, but it isn’t needed and unless backed with action it is meaningless. Faith in and of itself does little without a plan.

 

All the best to you and your wife. God speed to good health choices for quality of life.

Faith and Love, alone, and a couple of dollars will buy you a cup of coffee. They're nice feelings, but are materially and practically useless by themselves. They only function well in a loving partnership and in practical faith-based fellowship, with a strong impetus for communal material responsibility.

[XenoFish]

34 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

It does seem that altruism in part is genetic.

It's a part of survival. If I don't kill you and don't kill me, we both can survive longer. Same goes for helping one another. 

[+Desertrat56]

6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's a part of survival. If I don't kill you and don't kill me, we both can survive longer. Same goes for helping one another. 

Service to others is service to self.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Desertrat56 said:

Service to others is service to self.

All acts are done out of self interest.

[+Hammerclaw]

48 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Just a thought... Without ANY form of religion are we reduced to unbridled narcissism.

No, of course not. That being said, everyone with a healthy self-image is narcissistic to some degree.

We Are All Narcissists: Where Do YOU Fall On The Spectrum? | YourTango

[+Liquid Gardens]

41 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Well, IMHO, which may or may not be correct... YES.

I'm trying to think of what your reasoning is here.  Right now I concern myself with myself, other people, my cat, etc, and I don't think I'm a narcissist afaik.  I'm not sure what adding, or subtracting in a theists' case, God from things I concern myself with changes anything. 

Do you mean 'narcissist' just as being inordinately pre-occupied with yourself and your own feelings, regardless of how you actually feel about yourself, or do you mean 'narcissist' more as 'conceited' or 'vain' meaning thinking you yourself are great, or both?

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

So, you are not religious?  If so, do you think you are narcissistic?   Do you help people, or are you hedonistic?  Of course hedonistic is not the same as narcissistic.    I just am curious of what your reference is, do you think only religious people create charities and help people when they  need it and are concerned with the well being of others?   Maybe I am misunderstanding your comment about being narcissistic without religion.   

Hedonist are the worst scum on the planet.

[+Liquid Gardens]

22 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Hedonist are the worst scum on the planet.

Hmm, you don't like pleasure?  I'm of the opinion we are all hedonists and that it is what fundamentally drives all the decisions we make normally.