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Megalithic Strangers Passing in the Night


Thanos5150

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The stone working accomplishments of the Mediterranean megalithic culture c. 5000-2000BC was remarkably vast in scope-millions of tons of stone spread across tens of thousands of monuments stretching across nearly the entirety of Eurasia including north Africa.

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"Tens of thousands" is not an exaggeration-the sheer number of these types of megaliths over such a large geographical location during the same era is truly mind boggling in which new sites are being discovered all the time. Dolmens, for example, are ubiquitous found near just about anywhere you can throw a dart on map in Eurasia the least of which the Middle East and Anatolia in places like Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, and the Caucasus which will become more relevant later.

Though their purpose may have been complex, the forms themselves were relatively simple despite the use of massive stones some of which weighed upwards of 300 tons. Yet at this same time they were capable of building much more sophisticated structures namely like what is found in Ireland and Malta:

Newgrange c.3200BC:

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Malta c. 3200BC:

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Gavrinis Cairn, Brittany France c. 3200BC:

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/22/c0/b2/22c0b2406c5121fbc4aae3026dfda305.jpg

What we have is a period of about 3,000yrs, by traditional dating, with most of this work occurring between the period of c. 4000-2500BC, spanning 3 continents comprised of thousands of monuments, including all over the Near East, Anatolia, North Africa, and India-yet somehow the Ubaid, Sumerians, Egyptians, Elamites, Eblaites, Akkadians, Mehrgarh, Harappans, Byblians et al were all completely oblivious to the doings of the Mediterranean megalithic culture and vice versa??? Despite happening at the same time often in the same geographical neighborhoods?? No.

To me there has always been something wrong with this picture. If the dating is correct, that the Mediterranean culture overlapped with the Near East and Egypt for well over 1,000yrs, it is impossible that not only they would not know of one another, but also that they would not be in direct contact if only trade no different than the rest of the cultures of the period. Look again at the pictures of Malta, and I recommend looking for more, and understand that the temple building period is said to have lasted between roughly c. 3800-2500BC with most completed by c. 3,000BC. The Ubaid had been in Mesopotamia for over 2,000yrs at that point and by the time the first temples were supposedly being constructed in Malta the Ubaid were already building monumental architecture with towns having populations in the thousands. By c. 3100BC the Mesopotamian city of Uruk may have had a population of 40,000 and another 80,000-90,000 living in the "suburbs". Around 3,100BC Egypt was united and kingship put in place which was marked by the construction of massive tombs and soon to follow monumental stone architecture. While the Malta culture was supposedly building the last phase of the Tarxian temple, the AE were supposedly building 481ft high precision laid pyramids. Writing had been invented for nearly 1,000yrs by this time, all advanced culture had it in one form or another-yet the Maltese had none. The Sumerians to raise up other cultures for trade gave them systems of writing in which by 2600BC libraries in Ebla contained tens of thousands of tablets. Yet the Maltese, builders of Ġgantija, Tarxien, the Hypogeum and others- had none.

Yet they didn't know each other? No one in the known world seemed interact with the Mediterranean Megalithic culture let alone even know of their existence- how could this be? And how is it that all of these ancient cultures could independently invent methods to move massive stones so routinely, and all that entails, yet we cannot figure it out ourselves how they did it? How could they overlap historical and geographically and "technologically" so to speak and each be seemingly oblivious of one another? Or did they know of each other and we have just missed the connections?

Lee Anderson

Edited by Thanos5150
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44 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

The stone working accomplishments of the Mediterranean megalithic culture c. 5000-2000BC

Maybe it goes back a lot further in time:

https://www.livescience.com/51849-photos-monolith-sicily.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantelleria_Vecchia_Bank_Megalith

F3USzrLFA9QFeZGDbkTTXR-650-80.jpg.webp

Edited by Abramelin
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I wonder how much lies beneath the waves of water in the oceans and the waves of sand dunes in the deserts...

Fascinating stuff to ponder. 

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29 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

I wonder how much lies beneath the waves of water in the oceans and the waves of sand dunes in the deserts

I agree. We may be in for lots of surprizes.

Here's another submerged (mega?)lithic structure:

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/19/world/meast/israel-ancient-structure-mystery/index.html

Edited to add:

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-37367-2_12

Edited by Abramelin
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1 hour ago, quiXilver said:

wonder how much lies beneath the waves of water in the oceans and the waves of sand dunes in the deserts...

Fascinating stuff to ponder. 

Good place to do archeology.  From hunting camps to cities, rivers and coasts have always been favored because of resources and transportation.  With sea level rise, a lot of coastal and river mouth settlements may be preserved just offshore.  Now we have the capability to track sea level changes and  map the places now submerged river deltas used to be.

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12 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Quoting myself from elsewhere:

Quote

 

Another megalithic feature of Malta is what are known as "cart ruts", hundreds of uniform "groves" of unknown purpose that crisscross both islands. Some head off of cliffs, some head deep into the water in which some point right to the other islands and others seemingly to nowhere-a far off land now gone.

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It is clear the cart ruts were made, based on both visual and geological evidence, at time the islands of Malta (Malta, Gozo, and Camino) were one land mass when ocean levels were much lower which could have only been sometime prior to 5,500BC which obviously implies the megalithic structures are at least as old as well. According to he Malta museum, before 6,500-7,500BC ocean levels were at a point where Malta was actually connected to Sicily and part of one large landmass in which the Mediterranean was nearly separated into two large basins by a more widely exposed Tunisian strait and now submerged archipelagos off the Sicilian coast.

For reference:

medsea.gif

Lending clear credence to this idea is that in 2015 a giant man-made monolith was discovered underwater off the coast of Sicily towards Tunisia dating to at least 7,500BC:

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Monlith

And what are also found on Sicily?

Cart-ruts in western Sicily.

Regardless, this is not the point of the OP but rather focusing on the ubiquitous Mediterranean megalithic culture of the period which spanned most of Eurasia for a good 2500yrs corresponding to the proto-historic/early historic states of among others Mesopotamian and Dynastic Egypt, the latter of course who also built large megalithic structures during the later part of this period. Again, to quote the OP:

Quote

 

Yet they didn't know each other? No one in the known world seemed interact with the Mediterranean Megalithic culture let alone even know of their existence- how could this be? And how is it that all of these ancient cultures could independently invent methods to move massive stones so routinely, and all that entails, yet we cannot figure it out ourselves how they did it? How could they overlap historical and geographically and "technologically" so to speak and each be seemingly oblivious of one another? Or did they know of each other and we have just missed the connections?      

 

This in my view amounts to a real "mystery" worth exploring. The Dynastic Egyptians, for example, were capable of moving large stones in the archaic Dynastic Period, upwards of around 15 tons, but they are very few. Yet beginning in the 3rd Dynasty, not only did their architectural stone working ability and industry make a quantum leap all but overnight, so did their ability to move large stones which at Saqqara there are pieces of cut and dressed granite weighing upwards of 30 tons. The temples at Giza attributed to the 4th Dynasty routinely used blocks in the 50-100 ton range and at least one block an estimated whopping 400 tons. With the thousands of years of working with stone and moving and setting of such weights by the MMC (Mediterranean megalithic culture) before and during this period, given the geographical sphere of the Mediterranean the DE were a part of, not to mention those they were in regular contact with like the peoples of the Levant, it seems impossible they would not have known of the MMC and their stone working accomplishments and methods. I am not making any claims but am posing the question, a possibility, a common sense approach that it stands to reason their must have been some knowledge of each other, perhaps more than we think.    

Edited by Thanos5150
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14 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

I am not making any claims but am posing the question, a possibility, a common sense approach that it stands to reason their must have been some knowledge of each other, perhaps more than we think.    

The Pantelleria Vecchia Bank Megalith may have been a kind of lighthouse, as they say.

And I don't assume that 'lighthouse' was meant for dugout canoes.

 

I once created a thread about the west African "Serer". In that thread I posted an image of a very large boat of which they found petroglyphs of on rocks in the Sahara. That  during a time the Sahara was lots wetter than it is today (lakes, marshes, rivers).

Edited to add:

And here's the post with that boat in that thread about the Serer (btw., a thread you might be interested in...) :

link to post

The boat:

Mali_boat.gif

Edited by Abramelin
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6 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The Pantelleria Vecchia Bank Megalith may have been a kind of lighthouse, as they say.

And I don't assume that 'lighthouse' was meant for dugout canoes.

I once created a thread about the west African "Serer". In that thread I posted an image of a very large boat of which they found petroglyphs of on rocks in the Sahara. That  during a time the Sahara was lots wetter than it is today (lakes, marshes, rivers).

Edited to add:

And here's the post with that boat in that thread about the Serer (btw., a thread you might be interested in...) :

link to post

The boat:

Mali_boat.gif

Again, what does any of this have to do with the OP? Or the post you are responding to? 

I am not interested. The information provided in these videos are filtered though an Afrocentrist lens, not exactly the most accurate or objective source. Caveat emptor. This boat you picture above, why I don't know as it has zero relevance to the OP, is from the 1st millennium AD so all around I am not sure what your point is. 

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4 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Again, what does any of this have to do with the OP? Or the post you are responding to? 

You wanted to know if people back then could have been in contact with eachother, if it was possible, and I showed you they had the means.

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4 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

This boat you picture above, why I don't know as it has zero relevance to the OP, is from the 1st millennium AD so all around I am not sure what your point is. 

As far as I know, it is many thousands of years old. If not, show me a link that proves I am wrong.

 

"an Afrocentrist lens"... hahaha! Yeah, let's talk about AE again. No, wait.. that's Africa again.

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24 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

You wanted to know if people back then could have been in contact with eachother, if it was possible, and I showed you they had the means.

Sweet Christmas. 

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21 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

As far as I know, it is many thousands of years old. If not, show me a link that proves I am wrong.

"As far as you know" equals what exactly? Oh, you mean that video you watched that didn't say either which way which you didn't understand anyways? How about showing a link that proves you are right first (and hint its not the video you alluded to). We'll wait. 

Quote

"an Afrocentrist lens"... hahaha! Yeah, let's talk about AE again. No, wait.. that's Africa again.

I don't understand the point of you. Are you really this clueless or just failing at being "funny"? 

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This is bearing resemblence to Genesis chapter 6. The Great Flood and giants on earth.

Quote

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 

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On 11/13/2021 at 5:02 PM, Thanos5150 said:

 1- No one in the known world seemed to interact with the Mediterranean Megalithic culture let alone even know of their existence- how could this be?

2- And how is it that all of these ancient cultures could independently invent methods to move massive stones so routinely, and all that entails, yet we cannot figure it out ourselves how they did it?

3- How could they overlap historical and geographically and "technologically" so to speak and each be seemingly oblivious of one another?

4- Or did they know of each other and we have just missed the connections?

Lee Anderson

1- How can you be so sure they didn't?

2- We figured out how it could be done, but we don't know if that is how they did it. Alas, they didn't leave us any manuals.

3- Because one didn't take over the technology of the other doesn't prove they were not in contact. Maybe they had different ideas about how mega structures should be built, based on their philosophy/religion.

4- We probably have missed the obvious connections, yes.

----

I think the solution to your questions is this:

The megalithic culture started in the area between the western Med and the Atlantic (Iberia, France, the islands in the western Med, and NW Africa and was older than anything megalithic in the Levant, Mesopotamia and so on (Göbekli Tepe as an exception).

Traders from both sides of the picture got in contact, and not only exchanged goods, but also ideas. They used boats to trade their goods. Sometimes an adventurous guy/girl went along with the other party, and returned home with new ideas.

The eastern part of this picture, let's say east of Malta, improved on what they understood from the guy/girl that went along with the boat to the western Med.

===

In short: I have no fkg clue.

Maybe these ancients were lots more intelligent and inventive than we now think they were.

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12 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

1- How can you be so sure they didn't?

2- We figured out how it could be done, but we don't know if that is how they did it. Alas, they didn't leave us any manuals.

3- Because one didn't take over the technology of the other doesn't prove they were not in contact. Maybe they had different ideas about how mega structures should be built, based on their philosophy/religion.

4- We probably have missed the obvious connections, yes.

...?

The questions asked are rhetorical to establish the premise they must have known/known of each other despite the fact we find no overt evidence as of yet they did.  

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12 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

...?

The questions asked are rhetorical to establish the premise they must have known/known of each other despite the fact we find no overt evidence as of yet they did.  

Oh, rhetorical questions...

And what about the ziggurat-like structure found in Sardinia that is as old as the oldest ziggurat in Mesopotamia (Sialk)?

Yes, yes, I know: they are of a later period than you mentioned before. But it could prove some ideas were adopted, others didn't.

 

 

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On 11/15/2021 at 10:31 AM, Abramelin said:

And what about the ziggurat-like structure found in Sardinia that is as old as the oldest ziggurat in Mesopotamia (Sialk)?

Yes, yes, I know: they are of a later period than you mentioned before. But it could prove some ideas were adopted, others didn't.

....The period I refer to in the OP is 5000-2500BC so no Monte d'Accoddi would not be from a later period but well within it regardless of what phase. 

Sardinia has a very interesting megalithic history during Monte d'Accoddi period c.4,000-2800BC: 

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The Ubaidians Sumerians travelled far and wide to trade goods so it is interesting to think about if true how this came to be.  

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necropoli-montessu-villaperuccio-sulcis.

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Domus-de-Janas-SIncantu-Putifigari.-Foto

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MORE.

The dominant motifs of this latter tomb pictured are false doors, spirals, and bull horns. Very interesting for those keeping score at home yet regardless obviously the Sardinian megalithic builders were part of the MMC sphere. Sardinia also has cart ruts like Matla and elsewhere in the region. 

Not sure if any of this is ancient, but how about this for your next house:

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640px-Domus_de_Janas_Sedini.jpg

Regarding Monte d'Accoddi, quoting myself from elsewhere:

Quote

The oldest part of the site, stepped platform, dates to 4,000-3,650BC which seems may have been the Ozieri, which would date them earlier, which they abandoned c. 3000BC. What is seen today, which resembles a ziggurat, was built supposedly around 2800BC and its corners are aligned to the cardinal points which is a tell-tale Mesopotamian invention.

As intriguing as it is, the rub is that Sardinia is quite far away from any known western Mesopotamian occupation which would have been Syria in the Levant with nearby Byblos perhaps the port of call:

sardinia-in-europe-730x602.jpg 

Edited by Thanos5150
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On 11/18/2021 at 6:24 PM, Thanos5150 said:

As intriguing as it is, the rub is that Sardinia is quite far away from any known western Mesopotamian occupation which would have been Syria in the Levant with nearby Byblos perhaps the port of call:

I believe it was the people living between the western Med and the Atlantic - a Semitic speaking people - who influenced the Mesopotamians.

Both in language as in culture that is.

Now thàt would screw with accepted history.

To be clear: it was a Semitic speaking people, originating from Northern Africa, who initially occupied NW-Africa, Iberia, the Balearic Islands, Corsica and Sardinia who went east, and influenced what was later to be called "Mesopotamia".

 

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19 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I believe it was the people living between the western Med and the Atlantic - a Semitic speaking people - who influenced the Mesopotamians.

Both in language as in culture that is.

Now thàt would screw with accepted history.

To be clear: it was a Semitic speaking people, originating from Northern Africa, who initially occupied NW-Africa, Iberia, the Balearic Islands, Corsica and Sardinia who went east, and influenced what was later to be called "Mesopotamia".

....And why would you think such things when there is zero evidence to support such a claim any which way you look at it? 

Sumer and Elam, essentially "Mesopotamia" for over 1,000yrs through the end of the 5th-mid 3rd millenniums, are not Semitic whose languages are language isolates. Before them, say going back to 6500BC to the arrival of the Ubaid, the dominant culture of the region for over 2,000yrs whom the Sumerians absorbed, they are not Semitic either nor the Halaf or any other known proto-Euphrates peoples. Instead of what what you claim, that someone came and influenced them, what we actually see is the exact opposite with the Ubaid and Sumerians radiating throughout the region and influencing everyone else. For example, the oldest written Semitic related languages are found in Akkad and Ebla in the 3rd millennium whom both were written in scripts derived from Sumerian cuneiform. Which was the Sumerian way, to teach the people they traded with writing so that they could keep records. Ebla in particular is a fascinating example. 

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I know that what I posted is no way proven at all. But, let's say, I'm working on it.

And I mentioned "Semitic", but I meant Hamito-Semitic

It's nowadays called Afro-Asiatic. Personally I think one of the Berber languages (like Tamazight, or better, the ancient language of the Guanches) will prove to be important for what's 'brewing' inside my head.

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22 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I know that what I posted is no way proven at all. But, let's say, I'm working on it.

And I mentioned "Semitic", but I meant Hamito-Semitic

It's nowadays called Afro-Asiatic. Personally I think one of the Berber languages (like Tamazight, or better, the ancient language of the Guanches) will prove to be important for what's 'brewing' inside my head.

....

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@Thanos5150do you think there may have been a direct influence in AE that caused the drastic change that you highlight for the 3rd Dynasty moving forward? Or, do you think it was more of a "borrowing" of concepts on their part?

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