'What do you know about 'The Urantia Papers'?'

[Will Due]

6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

MW, the imaginary friend that saves you is your amygdala, it is the brains innate hardwiring that is geared towards survival, fight, flight or freeze. 
Let’s use a bunny to illustrate this: so a little bunny pops out of her little burrow and she sees a fox, but the fox doesn’t see her so her amygdala sends a signal and tells her to freeze, same bunny is spotted by the fox and her amygdala tells her to run (flight) ruh roh the little bunny is overtaken by the fox and her amygdala is telling her to fight for her life. 

 

Sheri,

How is this on topic?

 

 

[+Sherapy]

42 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Sheri,

How is this on topic?

 

 

It is an add too, often the mechanics of the brain can explain a lot of things, especially divine revelations or claims of being saved…

 

It is a a debunk offering too, which Luis is asking for in the OP.

Your thoughts?

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

28 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Your thoughts?

 

Just a sec

Let me look that up in the book 

 

 

[jmccr8]

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

My mind did those things, yep

My body has never been off world, and indeed has never left Australia, yet I have seen and experienced most of the world and some of the galaxy through my mind and consciousness.

Hi Walker

Then it is not real in the physical sense and simply a fabrication of your mind.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

When i ride a horse bareback  or water/snow ski my mind is also doing this, not just my body 

Later i know/ remember what each experience is like only because it is stored in my mind.

That is not always imagination 

Yes real physical experiences are real and not like your imagined experiences.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

However in this case i was speaking of direct external physical manifestations which can be seen  by all and which affect the physicla world 

My wife could confirm my claims as could other witnesses to such events. 

To date all you have done is talk about your alien and have not given an iota of credible evidence that it exists in the real world not so unlike you riding a dragon. Your wife is a religious person and you have said that she would not accept your alien as her god so really she does not support your claim given your description of her faith in her religion.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Many other humans have written about similar experiences 

But why should you believe them, anymore than you believe me .

 Yes many people claim many things with no more evidence than you have given and many are so different than yours that they cannot be considered the same experience. I give them the same doubt that I give your claim based on the lack of tangible supporting evidence.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Maybe one day it will happen to you.

I will be interested in  your response after that. 

Just to be on the safe side don't hold your breath it may take considerably longer than you think.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I examine all evidences using the scientific method 

The point is that such evidences are never transferrable

Any evidence that can be objectively studied using scientific method would be the same for anyone to come to the same conclusions that is why it is a standard for analysis. If you cannot provide evidence then it does not exist.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You don't believe You don't really want to believe, and you are a bit miffed that you haven't had your own experiences 

I neither believe or disbelieve as there has been nothing to show that there is a reason one way or the other. Not sure why you think I am miffed, life is full of experiences that I have enjoyed even though there are some that were less so they all had an impact on my life that I could use to my advantage.

Beliefs don't require tangible evidence and there are many here that have beliefs and are good people that do not claim to have seen/heard Jesus, god, angels or other beings and accept that they are believing on faith alone which is fine.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Thus, no evidences I could supply to you would change your mind.

If there was verifiable physical evidence that could stand up to critical review then yes I do accept that and you have not given any evidence that can be studied so that is on you not me.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The flaw is  there if you use simple English skills to analyse the paragraph.

It is not ego (although it is pedantic)   I see it because I have spent decades assessing  such things 

There was no flaw 200 years was the definition and was inclusive of all religions arisen during that time, you have spent decades arguing non points simply to make yourself relevant in your unique sort of way and that does not mean you have effectively made a valid point. Yes it is about your ego because you believe that you are right and that there is a competition to win. A discussion is not about winning in so much as it is a means of discovery and you are not interested in learning.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

However neither you nor Hammer might read the passage as I did  i

Pretty sure Hammer understood the passage he wrote it and gave parameters for his statement, you (singular) are the only one that had a problem understanding his post.

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

(I dont see 100-120  years as "late coming" within 200 years of explosive growth in religions.  ) Maybe you and Hammer do 

His post was not referring to anything other than religions created in the last 200 years so when in that 200 year period that it was created was not required as a quality.

I have drifted too far of track with this as the thread is about someone else's aliens and not yours and will put this to bed. If it is that important to you to carry this forward do open a thread and I will take it up with you so we are not derailing this thread.

[+Sherapy]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Just a sec

Let me look that up in the book 

 

 

Ahahahahaha, good one, Will.

[Will Due]

 

Here's another article about that "Giant Arc".

 

A central pillar of cosmology — the universe is the same everywhere and in all directions — is surviving a storm of possible evidence against it.

 

Quanta Magazine: Giant Arc of Galaxies Puts Basic Cosmology Under Scrutiny.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/giant-arc-of-galaxies-puts-basic-cosmology-under-scrutiny-20211213/

 

 

[c.s.lewis]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:39 AM, Sherapy said:

There is no such thing as spiritual insight, IMHO 

On 12/12/2021 at 9:45 AM, Sherapy said:

Cosmic consciousness? Enhanced spiritual perception? 

.

[psyche101]

12 hours ago, Will Due said:

It's what you said. I quoted you.

Will, you know I wasn't in any way referring to a common centre I made that quite clear.

Why do you play dumb like this? Does the UB inspire you to be a dick or is that natural? 

I'll give you the tip. The UB is definitely detrimental to your social skills.

Edited December 13, 2021 by psyche101

[psyche101]

6 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Here's another article about that "Giant Arc".

 

A central pillar of cosmology — the universe is the same everywhere and in all directions — is surviving a storm of possible evidence against it.

 

Quanta Magazine: Giant Arc of Galaxies Puts Basic Cosmology Under Scrutiny.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/giant-arc-of-galaxies-puts-basic-cosmology-under-scrutiny-20211213/

 

The giant arc doesn't indicate any centre. If you drew a circle we could see the centre. 

Homogeneous doesn't mean circular. 

It's proof against a centre. 

[psyche101]

56 minutes ago, Luis Marco said:

.

This is how you sender questions is it?

The UB certainly attracts a particular type of person doesn't it. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by psyche101

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, Luis Marco said:

.

 

[jmccr8]

3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 

Hi Sheri

Odd that a guy invites people to discuss and has nothing to say when directly questioned.

[psyche101]

6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Sheri

Odd that a guy invites people to discuss and has nothing to say when directly questioned.

Halbert the nothing burger 

What a disappointment.

[+Hammerclaw]

He didn't realize what a tough room he would be working when he first entered. I guess the title led him to think UM was like thirdphaseofthemoon, or something.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Timothy said:

‘i think it came from  one man who had dreams or visions’
 

I would posit that it was the work of a very intelligent and intellectual man/women or a group of people.

I doubt the claim that the papers physically materialised in a miraculous way

That a human being had visions or dreams, even a genuine contact with the universal  consciousness,  which were then recorded by others is quite possible.

This un named person was describing these visions from 1911 onwards and the y were written down in the mid 20s  then published in book form in the 50s 

Analysis appears to  show more than one author of the writings  

[Mr Walker]

Posted 3 hours ago

  On 12/13/2021 at 1:09 AM, Sherapy said:

There is no such thing as spiritual insight, IMHO 

  On 12/13/2021 at 2:15 AM, Sherapy said:

Cosmic consciousness? Enhanced spiritual perception? 

.

I understand your laughter .Luis  but It might be worth your while trying to explain these concepts to Sherapy 

On the other hand she might well understand them but not be prepared to admit they exist  as forms of human cognition.

it l s like those people who have never really experienced the full power of human love and insist it  is simply some chemical reaction They deny that t real love exists  

 

Ill try to explain it in non religious terms to Sherapy, but it also applies to religious beliefs and faiths.

 Spiritual insight includes feeling understanding and appreciating the nature of a human spiritual response to something 

That something could be a beautiful summers day, a great piece of art or music or a loved one such as a parent,  child or partner.

  Iti s only the spiritual part of a person which enables them to feel and appreciated the power and beauty of such things. 

This also applies in the realm of religions and beliefs.  It is the same sense of power and beauty you can feel for your sons 

Enhanced spiritual perception is just the ability to be more aware, feel more deeply,  and understand spirituality more  completely..

ill give a traditional  description of thercosmic copiousness 

quote  

Forms of consciousness[edit]

In Cosmic Consciousness, Bucke stated that he discerned three forms, or degrees, of consciousness:[1]

Simple consciousness, possessed by both animals and mankind

Self-consciousness, possessed by mankind, encompassing thought, reason, and imagination

Cosmic consciousness, which is "a higher form of consciousness than that possessed by the ordinary man" [2]

According to Bucke,

This consciousness shows the cosmos to consist not of dead matter governed by unconscious, rigid, and unintending law; it shows it on the contrary as entirely immaterial, entirely spiritual and entirely alive; it shows that death is an absurdity, that everyone and everything has eternal life; it shows that the universe is God and that God is the universe, and that no evil ever did or ever will enter into it; a great deal of this is, of course, from the point of view of self consciousness, absurd; it is nevertheless undoubtedly true.[3]

Moores said that Bucke's cosmic consciousness is an interconnected way of seeing things "which is more of an intuitive knowing than it is a factual understanding".[4] Moores pointed out that, for scholars of the purist camp, the experience of cosmic consciousness is incomplete without the element of love, "which is the foundation of mystical consciousness".[4]

Mysticism, then, is the perception of the universe and all of its seemingly disparate entities existing in a unified whole bound together by love.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Consciousness

Bucke identifies three layers of consciousness, each built upon the lower: Simple Consciousness — a basic awareness, which most non-human animals also possess; Self-Consciousness, which render one aware not only of trees, rivers, and one’s own body, but also of oneself as “a distinct entity apart from all the rest of the universe,” capable of treating one’s own thoughts and feelings as objects of consciousness itself; and Cosmic Consciousness, which Bucke defines as an awareness of “the life and order of the universe.” In a passage of striking consonance with William James’s framework of transcendent experiences, he writes:

Along with the consciousness of the cosmos there occurs an intellectual enlightenment or illumination which alone would place the individual on a new plane of existence — would make him almost a member of a new species. To this is added a state of moral exaltation, an indescribable feeling of elevation, elation, and joyousness, and a quickening of the moral sense, which is fully as striking and more important both to the individual and to the race than is the enhanced intellectual power. With these come, what may be called a sense of immortality, a consciousness of eternal life, not a conviction that he shall have this, but the consciousness that he has it already.

In language that closely parallels the way people describe the effects of psychedelics, Bucke limns the nature and sequence of this revelatory experience:

Like a flash there is presented to [the person’s] consciousness a clear conception (a vision) in outline of the meaning and drift of the universe. He does not come to believe merely; but he sees and knows that the cosmos, which to the self conscious mind seems made up of dead matter, is in fact far otherwise — is in very truth a living presence. He sees that instead of men being, as it were, patches of life scattered through an infinite sea of non-living substance, they are in reality specks of relative death in an infinite ocean of life.

[…]

The person who passes through this experience will learn in the few minutes, or even moments, of its continuance more than in months or years of study, and he will learn much that no study ever taught or can teach. Especially does he obtain such a conception of THE WHOLE, or at least of an immense WHOLE, as dwarfs all conception, imagination or speculation, springing from and belonging to ordinary self consciousness, such a conception as makes the old attempts to mentally grasp the universe and its meaning petty and even ridiculous.

https://www.themarginalian.org/2019/04/11/cosmic-consciousness-maurice-bucke/

 

 

This is NOT some airy fairy mystic experience

It is a real cognitive gnosis, or enlightenment.

  It can be real, and totally empowering, and transforming.

  Experience it, and you and your life can never be the same again. 

I encountered it aged about 13, and have lived with it ever since. 

It does exactly what these descriptions  say it does, but also much, much, more. 

Here is a modern psychological explanation of it .

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/out-the-darkness/201703/cosmic-consciousness

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Mr Walker

[+Hammerclaw]

12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Posted 3 hours ago

  On 12/13/2021 at 1:09 AM, Sherapy said:

There is no such thing as spiritual insight, IMHO 

  On 12/13/2021 at 2:15 AM, Sherapy said:

Cosmic consciousness? Enhanced spiritual perception? 

.

I understand your laughter .Luis  but It might be worth your while trying to explain these concepts to Sherapy 

On the other hand she might well understand them but not be prepared to admit they exist  as forms of human cognition.

it l s like those people who have never really experienced the full power of human love and insist it  is simply some chemical reaction They deny that t real love exists  

 

Ill try to explain it in non religious terms to Sherapy, but it also applies to religious beliefs and faiths.

 Spiritual insight includes feeling understanding and appreciating the nature of a human spiritual response to something 

That something could be a beautiful summers day, a great piece of art or music or a loved one such as a parent,  child or partner.

  Iti s only the spiritual part of a person which enables them to feel and appreciated the power and beauty of such things. 

This also applies in the realm of religions and beliefs.  It is the same sense of power and beauty you can feel for your sons 

Enhanced spiritual perception is just the ability to be more aware, feel more deeply,  and understand spirituality more  completely..

ill give a traditional  description of thercosmic copiousness 

quote  

Forms of consciousness[edit]

In Cosmic Consciousness, Bucke stated that he discerned three forms, or degrees, of consciousness:[1]

Simple consciousness, possessed by both animals and mankind

Self-consciousness, possessed by mankind, encompassing thought, reason, and imagination

Cosmic consciousness, which is "a higher form of consciousness than that possessed by the ordinary man" [2]

According to Bucke,

This consciousness shows the cosmos to consist not of dead matter governed by unconscious, rigid, and unintending law; it shows it on the contrary as entirely immaterial, entirely spiritual and entirely alive; it shows that death is an absurdity, that everyone and everything has eternal life; it shows that the universe is God and that God is the universe, and that no evil ever did or ever will enter into it; a great deal of this is, of course, from the point of view of self consciousness, absurd; it is nevertheless undoubtedly true.[3]

Moores said that Bucke's cosmic consciousness is an interconnected way of seeing things "which is more of an intuitive knowing than it is a factual understanding".[4] Moores pointed out that, for scholars of the purist camp, the experience of cosmic consciousness is incomplete without the element of love, "which is the foundation of mystical consciousness".[4]

Mysticism, then, is the perception of the universe and all of its seemingly disparate entities existing in a unified whole bound together by love.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Consciousness

Bucke identifies three layers of consciousness, each built upon the lower: Simple Consciousness — a basic awareness, which most non-human animals also possess; Self-Consciousness, which render one aware not only of trees, rivers, and one’s own body, but also of oneself as “a distinct entity apart from all the rest of the universe,” capable of treating one’s own thoughts and feelings as objects of consciousness itself; and Cosmic Consciousness, which Bucke defines as an awareness of “the life and order of the universe.” In a passage of striking consonance with William James’s framework of transcendent experiences, he writes:

Along with the consciousness of the cosmos there occurs an intellectual enlightenment or illumination which alone would place the individual on a new plane of existence — would make him almost a member of a new species. To this is added a state of moral exaltation, an indescribable feeling of elevation, elation, and joyousness, and a quickening of the moral sense, which is fully as striking and more important both to the individual and to the race than is the enhanced intellectual power. With these come, what may be called a sense of immortality, a consciousness of eternal life, not a conviction that he shall have this, but the consciousness that he has it already.

In language that closely parallels the way people describe the effects of psychedelics, Bucke limns the nature and sequence of this revelatory experience:

Like a flash there is presented to [the person’s] consciousness a clear conception (a vision) in outline of the meaning and drift of the universe. He does not come to believe merely; but he sees and knows that the cosmos, which to the self conscious mind seems made up of dead matter, is in fact far otherwise — is in very truth a living presence. He sees that instead of men being, as it were, patches of life scattered through an infinite sea of non-living substance, they are in reality specks of relative death in an infinite ocean of life.

[…]

The person who passes through this experience will learn in the few minutes, or even moments, of its continuance more than in months or years of study, and he will learn much that no study ever taught or can teach. Especially does he obtain such a conception of THE WHOLE, or at least of an immense WHOLE, as dwarfs all conception, imagination or speculation, springing from and belonging to ordinary self consciousness, such a conception as makes the old attempts to mentally grasp the universe and its meaning petty and even ridiculous.

https://www.themarginalian.org/2019/04/11/cosmic-consciousness-maurice-bucke/

 

 

This is NOT some airy fairy mystic experience

It is a real cognitive gnosis, or enlightenment.

  It can be real, and totally empowering, and transforming.

  Experience it, and you and your life can never be the same again. 

I encountered it aged about 13, and have lived with it ever since. 

It does exactly what these descriptions  say it does, but also much, much, more. 

Here is a modern psychological explanation of it .

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/out-the-darkness/201703/cosmic-consciousness

 

Actually, it's scientifically unsubstantiate folderol, Mr Walker, light entertainment like fantasy novels or science fiction. It serves the same purpose as ghost stories around the campfire, taken as fact by only the seriously delusional. A delusional mind can convince itself of pretty much anything, but won't be able to convince any other mind, save for one content to subsist on mere belief, in the complete absence of empirical knowledge. A healthy mind requires the weight of evidence to be swayed; incessant quotes of other believers hardly suffices. 

[Will Due]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

save for one content to subsist on mere belief, in the complete absence of empirical knowledge. 

 

Yes and throughout eternity they will be known as agondonters, meaning evolutionary will creatures who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone because they were afforded a unique opportunity for the exercise of faith and for the development of a peculiar quality of confidence in cosmic reliability which is not dependent on sight or any other material consideration they will be intrusted with numerous special assignments to cosmic undertakings where unquestioned faith and sublime confidence are essential to achievement.

 

 

Spoiler

cosmic

/ˈkäzmik/

relating to the universe or cosmos, especially as distinct from the earth.

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Will Due

[+Hammerclaw]

26 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Yes and throughout eternity they will be known as agondonters, meaning evolutionary will creatures who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone because they were afforded a unique opportunity for the exercise of faith and for the development of a peculiar quality of confidence in cosmic reliability which is not dependent on sight or any other material consideration they will be intrusted with numerous special assignments to cosmic undertakings where unquestioned faith and sublime confidence are essential to achievement.

 

 

You're quoting scripture, Will, albeit not from a legitimate Bible. What is described in this quote is gullible fools who can be persuaded to believe anything, drink anything, even poison Kool Ade. Obviously, Urantians want to feel special, chosen, better than everyone else. You're all on a fantasy trip, for this stuff is without substance, a glorified ego trip for emotionally insecure young people and desperate old fools. In the end, as with any religion, one can't persuade anyone to believe that doesn't want to believe. You can't make people want to, either. The biggest turnoff for me is the insipid lot on YouTube trying to sling this hash to the easily deceived. What a nauseating crowd!

[onlookerofmayhem]

I find it to be a huge red flag when any book tries to get the reader to embrace the value of faith.

I'm referring to the religious type of faith in Hebrews 11:1 that states, not the colloquial "confidence" type of faith.

Hebrews 11:1, KJV: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

It seems to be very similar to what the UB espouses.

It pretty much sums up that there is no good reason to believe, but you should anyway.

Kind of like someone starting a story with :

"You're never going to believe this, but..."

And then they proceed to tell you a bunch of super improbable, if not impossible things.

Can strange things happen? Sure.

But to me it's pretty damning when a book has to implicitly tell you that believing every word is somehow beneficial even it makes no sense.

To suspend all logic and critical thinking to believe unevidenced assertions is intellectually bankrupt.

If one's best reason to believe something is faith, I'd recommend questioning that belief. 

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Actually, it's scientifically unsubstantiate folderol, Mr Walker, light entertainment like fantasy novels or science fiction. It serves the same purpose as ghost stories around the campfire, taken as fact by only the seriously delusional. A delusional mind can convince itself of pretty much anything, but won't be able to convince any other mind, save for one content to subsist on mere belief, in the complete absence of empirical knowledge. A healthy mind requires the weight of evidence to be swayed; incessant quotes of other believers hardly suffices. 

Actually it is  not. (although I am not clear specifically what you are referencing here,  but assume it is human spirituality )

It is an established cognitive and psychological fact that, uniquely among all animals, humans have evolved a cognitive tool box which includes a sense  of spirituality as a survival trait.

It seems to have co-evolved as we evolved our self  aware consciousness

Such spirituality includes religious spirituality, but that is only a small subset of wider human spirituality,  such as the appreciation of beauty in both art and nature.

  It gives us the abilty to write and appreciate;   music, poetry, literature  etc., which engenders an emotional/intellectual response  which can bring us to tears of joy and wonder.  Human spirituality is as real as human logical abilities, and it evolved to serve a similar purpose ie it is s pro-survival trait  

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

I find it to be a huge red flag when any book tries to get the reader to embrace the value of faith.

I'm referring to the religious type of faith in Hebrews 11:1 that states, not the colloquial "confidence" type of faith.

Hebrews 11:1, KJV: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

It seems to be very similar to what the UB espouses.

It pretty much sums up that there is no good reason to believe, but you should anyway.

Kind of like someone starting a story with :

"You're never going to believe this, but..."

And then they proceed to tell you a bunch of super improbable, if not impossible things.

Can strange things happen? Sure.

But to me it's pretty damning when a book has to implicitly tell you that believing every word is somehow beneficial even it makes no sense.

To suspend all logic and critical thinking to believe unevidenced assertions is intellectually bankrupt.

If one's best reason to believe something is faith, I'd recommend questioning that belief. 

Humans only have a choice to believe unsubstantiated things 

Substantiated things don't fall into the realm of belief, but of knowledge You cant (sanely)  believe or disbelieve anything which you know to be true or false

Humans have evolved to believe things for several  reasons.

First, belief confers an evolutionary survival advantage. Ie believers lived longer and had more children than non believers, thus ensuring the spread of belief until it became an almost universal human cognitive trait. 

Second, and connected to this, it seems to give longer life and better health, both physical and mental. 

But generally, belief offers comfort and hope which the material world denies us.

  People need to feel safe and secure, even when they are not, and belief allows the construction of the feeling of safety, and of hope. 

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You're quoting scripture, Will, albeit not from a legitimate Bible. What is described in this quote is gullible fools who can be persuaded to believe anything, drink anything, even poison Kool Ade. Obviously, Urantians want to feel special, chosen, better than everyone else. You're all on a fantasy trip, for this stuff is without substance, a glorified ego trip for emotionally insecure young people and desperate old fools. In the end, as with any religion, one can't persuade anyone to believe that doesn't want to believe. You can't make people want to, either. The biggest turnoff for me is the insipid lot on YouTube trying to sling this hash to the easily deceived. What a nauseating crowd!

Maybe maybe not That's a very negative one sided pov See my post above for why humans believe

Plus its not all fantasy 

There are many humans with personal  experiences similar to these.  It is logical for you to disbelieve them, but wrong, because you lack all the data.    

Talk openly and without criticism to anyone, and there is a greater than 50% chance that they will tell you  of at least one similar experience in their own life,  yet your disbelief seeks to override/deny  their knowledge and experiences 

 

Such people aren't special, and if they try to claim to be, it is a red flag 

The y are, IMO,  just more complete  human beings who have a greater balance between the material and the spiritual need s of humanity   Almost every human was like this before  we became seduced by technology and materialism  (good in themselves, but not enough to meet human needs,  and sometimes a danger to our overall health, well being, and psychological balance)

Edited December 14, 2021 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Then it is not real in the physical sense and simply a fabrication of your mind.

Yes real physical experiences are real and not like your imagined experiences.

To date all you have done is talk about your alien and have not given an iota of credible evidence that it exists in the real world not so unlike you riding a dragon. Your wife is a religious person and you have said that she would not accept your alien as her god so really she does not support your claim given your description of her faith in her religion.

 Yes many people claim many things with no more evidence than you have given and many are so different than yours that they cannot be considered the same experience. I give them the same doubt that I give your claim based on the lack of tangible supporting evidence.

Just to be on the safe side don't hold your breath it may take considerably longer than you think.

Any evidence that can be objectively studied using scientific method would be the same for anyone to come to the same conclusions that is why it is a standard for analysis. If you cannot provide evidence then it does not exist.

I neither believe or disbelieve as there has been nothing to show that there is a reason one way or the other. Not sure why you think I am miffed, life is full of experiences that I have enjoyed even though there are some that were less so they all had an impact on my life that I could use to my advantage.

Beliefs don't require tangible evidence and there are many here that have beliefs and are good people that do not claim to have seen/heard Jesus, god, angels or other beings and accept that they are believing on faith alone which is fine.

If there was verifiable physical evidence that could stand up to critical review then yes I do accept that and you have not given any evidence that can be studied so that is on you not me.

There was no flaw 200 years was the definition and was inclusive of all religions arisen during that time, you have spent decades arguing non points simply to make yourself relevant in your unique sort of way and that does not mean you have effectively made a valid point. Yes it is about your ego because you believe that you are right and that there is a competition to win. A discussion is not about winning in so much as it is a means of discovery and you are not interested in learning.

Pretty sure Hammer understood the passage he wrote it and gave parameters for his statement, you (singular) are the only one that had a problem understanding his post.

His post was not referring to anything other than religions created in the last 200 years so when in that 200 year period that it was created was not required as a quality.

I have drifted too far of track with this as the thread is about someone else's aliens and not yours and will put this to bed. If it is that important to you to carry this forward do open a thread and I will take it up with you so we are not derailing this thread.

Just to answer your first few points 

Everything exists, for us, only in our mind and memories 

Ie I learned to snow ski about 50 years ago 

All I have of that now is memory 

Il learned to ride a dragon about the same time ago

All I have of that is memory  

So, Which was "real" ?

There is no difference in our mind between memories of dreamed experiences and of real ones, which is why we need contextual and reality checkers to tell which occured while we were awke and which while we were asleep 

Now i have enough personal evidences to know that i can project my consciousness to  real places while I am asleep 

And so its debatable (and certainly not provable) whether my dream experiences were "real" or not  Some have been proven to be real by later scientific discoveries Others not  yet

I hope you  never need or require help from  the cosmic consciousness, but I also hope that if you  do, your mind is open to hearing and acting on its help and advice  It can mean the difference between your life and your death( or simply being able to achieve something, help another person, or find a car park right in front of where you want to go   

 

think about the ridiculousness of this statement you made

 If you cannot provide evidence then it does not exist.

Provide me with evidences for what you had for breakfast exactly one  week ago 

You can't, yet that breakfast  (if you  had one) patently existed 

Provide me with evidences for what you dreamed last night (or evidences that you did not dream if you had none) or what you were thinking an hour ago

You can't, and yet you KNOW those things. 

Prove to me (by providing evidences)  the last words you spoke before reading this 

Almost everything which we know happened to us, cannot be proven to another, using evidences.  

If I can't provide evidences, then you are rationally entitled not to believe me, (and I am totally happy with that)   but it doesn't mean  that  I am wrong, lying, mistaken,  or that these things do not exist. 

 

 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

27 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Just to answer your first few points 

Everything exists, for us, only in our mind and memories 

Ie I learned to snow ski about 50 years ago 

All I have of that now is memory 

Il learned to ride a dragon about the same time ago

All I have of that is memory  

So, Which was "real" ?

There is no difference in our mind between memories of dreamed experiences and of real ones, which is why we need contextual and reality checkers to tell which occured while we were awke and which while we were asleep 

Now i have enough personal evidences to know that i can project my consciousness to  real places while I am asleep 

And so its debatable (and certainly not provable) whether my dream experiences were "real" or not  Some have been proven to be real by later scientific discoveries Others not  yet

I hope you  never need or require help from  the cosmic consciousness, but I also hope that if you  do, your mind is open to hearing and acting on its help and advice  It can mean the difference between your life and your death( or simply being able to achieve something, help another person, or find a car park right in front of where you want to go   

 

think about the ridiculousness of this statement you made

 If you cannot provide evidence then it does not exist.

Provide me with evidences for what you had for breakfast exactly one  week ago 

You can't, yet that breakfast  (if you  had one) patently existed 

Provide me with evidences for what you dreamed last night (or evidences that you did not dream if you had none) or what you were thinking an hour ago

You can't, and yet you KNOW those things. 

Prove to me (by providing evidences)  the last words you spoke before reading this 

Almost everything which we know happened to us, cannot be proven to another, using evidences.  

If I can't provide evidences, then you are rationally entitled not to believe me, (and I am totally happy with that)   but it doesn't mean  that  I am wrong, lying, mistaken,  or that these things do not exist. 

 

 

 

Occam's Razor makes short shrift of all that, Mr Walker, meaning self-delusion is far more probable. You are, of course, free to go on tilting at windmills, none-the-less.