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'What do you know about 'The Urantia Papers'?'


Luis Marco
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On 12/24/2021 at 9:50 PM, eight bits said:

That's helpful, along with the list of other excluded psychological phenomena. Thank you.

Also, anything you know about Sadler's work process would be helpful. I only know the outlines, that there was a "sleeping subject" who was a patient. I take that as a literal description: the subject either talked in his sleep or recalled things in detail upon waking up from sleep (do you know which?). At some point, Sadler noted that there was a lot of coherent structure to what the subject was saying.

I can understand that Sadler would decide that some record should be made of what the subject was saying. From what you write, maybe that's not so much because Sadler believed what the subject was saying at that point, but rather because it was an interesting phenomenon, maybe even medically significant for the patient.

Assuming what I've said so far is more-or-less correct, then where I lose the plot is when Sadler assembles a "forum" of interested friends (?) to serve as both a source of questions for the subject and also an editorial board (?) in preparing the subject's answers for eventual publication. It seems to me that that would suggest a non-trivial level of belief by Sadler in the truth of the subject's content, beyond simply recognizing an interesting medical or psychological phenomenon.

I appreciate that that is not a well formed question, but I am pretty much lost at that point (and for all I know, I was lost before then and hadn't noticed it). Anyway, that's where I am on the origins question, and if you see a way forward from there, pointers are welcome.

 

OK, I'll just file cosmic consciousness along with all the many other words and phrases that mean something in the Wonderful World of Walker, but which ought not to be confused with the same words being used to denote things whose existence has been established in the real world.

You've summed up my limited knowledge of the origins of the UB quite well Nothing to disagree with there

your last point  however mixes two things.

Cosmic consciousness a s used by Bucke DOES also include an external universal consciousness rather than just a heightened sense of individual consciousness, despite what you believe about this work.

Second and separate  point 

about 1963  or 4, when i was 12 or i3 I experienced contact with this consciousness which also raised permanently my own inner awareness and understanding. Hard to say which came first  although I'd been working on understanding and  controlling my mind  since i was 3 or 4. 

I was raised an atheist /secular humanist  who read a lot of science fiction  so I never saw this as a god but as an alien intelligence 

Over the years my understanding of it increased with prolonged contact, but basically that   is how I still see it. A   powerful alien entity or artefact  with a high level of technology 

So instead of calling it god etc. I called it the cosmic or universal consciousness, because it spanned time and space, and allowed my mind to do so as well, while piggy backing on it . In other words i coined the same phrase for it as Bucke, and for the same reasons (because that is what it is)

Today you might say it provides an internet of mind  for mind to mind communication across time and space  but back then there were no personal computers, let alone an internet 

 

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On 12/24/2021 at 11:58 PM, Nuclear Wessel said:

Interesting how they always fold when an offer is done to actually prove their abilities. I guess if you've already proved it to others there's no need to prove it to somebody under controlled conditions, right? :P

Right; especially when you've proven it dozens of times in the real world :) 

I've only helped one person here on UM That was a case of real need where a precious family possession had gone missing 

We couldn't retrieve it, but i helped the poster find out what had happened to it. 

This particular abilty works best in close physical contact with people and when they have a strong emotional need for help.

Don't know why that it is, but there are logical scientific reasons why it might be so.  

I used to have ago at these challenges, after explaining why I didn't think they would work  

Now I don't bother as peole assume that such a failure proves something .

It does not, of course. 

 

Edited by Mr Walker
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13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Cosmic consciousness a s used by Bucke DOES also include an external universal consciousness rather than just a heightened sense of individual consciousness, despite what you believe about this work.

In which case, since Bucke's book is hosted in several places online, you can direct me to the passage you have in mind.

We can discuss it further then.

Meanwhile, Merry Christmas, Mr W.

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On 12/25/2021 at 12:03 AM, Manwon Lender said:

That's very cool my friend and then after he fails you need to give him Zap-Zap!!:lol:

I didnt take that test in part because i could easily have cheated at it 

This could then have been pointed out to challenge my results   Ive done similar tests online and exceeded the maximum word limit available in the time set  with about 75 %  accurate recall (which is as much as a normal reader would have, when tested)  

 I generally read a t about 600 words a minute  but can read and comprehend much faster than tha t with a lot of concentration  (Several thousand words a minute ) It literally gives me a headache so I don't use it while reading for pleasure  Recall is not affected by speed if, when reading, you sight every word.  I can sight a page a t a time  allowing me to see a page in total like a single word. That takes a second or two.  There are generally about 300 words on a page, giving a potential reading speed of about 100 words per second  or 6000 words per minute .Thats not normally possible due to physical constraints, like turning pages,   but half that is easily achievable     

Ps all my family has a a similar reading speed.

Even my wife  reads 2 or 3 books every day.  ie she is not a sibling but has a similar reading skill 

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10 minutes ago, eight bits said:

In which case, since Bucke's book is hosted in several places online, you can direct me to the passage you have in mind.

We can discuss it further then.

Meanwhile, Merry Christmas, Mr W.

I thought I included that i the wiki source I gave earlier  and in Bucke's association with Walt Whitman whom he saw as the epitome of a person connected tot he cosmic consciousness 

quote 

According to Bucke,

This consciousness shows the cosmos to consist not of dead matter governed by unconscious, rigid, and unintending law; it shows it on the contrary as entirely immaterial, entirely spiritual and entirely alive; it shows that death is an absurdity, that everyone and everything has eternal life; it shows that the universe is God and that God is the universe, and that no evil ever did or ever will enter into it; a great deal of this is, of course, from the point of view of self consciousness, absurd; it is nevertheless undoubtedly true.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Consciousness

ie Once you have raised your own consciousness (or had it raised by contact with the universal consciousness)  you become aware of the universal or cosmic consciousness. Bucke saw this as god.  I know it as an advanced alien intelligence which humans have often considered to be god, due to its "miraculous " technological abilities  

Thanks for the Christmas wishes and back at you, but its almost 10 hours into boxing day here.  Sydney to Hobart yacht race and boxing day cricket test against the poms about to start Ill be offline for a bit  :) 

Edited by Mr Walker
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3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

It sounds like he is a real piece of work. It’s funny some people will make those kind of threats, and you sit and wait for them to show up and when they do something like that happens. Now the whole time you are sitting there waiting for them your getting mad and then you get anger and the individual shows up and you see it took all their courage to show up. Then as fast you became angry you see the person is frightened and all the anger just goes away, I mean at least for me, because how do you put hands on someone who’s obviously frightened I can’t do it, because I would feel terrible later. I suspect if that exact situation occurred to me I would just turn around and go in the house and close the door!:D

Hi Manwon

I thought it was funny and didn’t get worked up about him because he was used to intimidating women and not men.

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45 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I thought I included that i the wiki source I gave earlier  and in Bucke's association with Walt Whitman whom he saw as the epitome of a person connected tot he cosmic consciousness 

quote 

According to Bucke,

This consciousness shows the cosmos to consist not of dead matter governed by unconscious, rigid, and unintending law; it shows it on the contrary as entirely immaterial, entirely spiritual and entirely alive; it shows that death is an absurdity, that everyone and everything has eternal life; it shows that the universe is God and that God is the universe, and that no evil ever did or ever will enter into it; a great deal of this is, of course, from the point of view of self consciousness, absurd; it is nevertheless undoubtedly true.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Consciousness

ie Once you have raised your own consciousness (or had it raised by contact with the universal consciousness)  you become aware of the universal or cosmic consciousness. Bucke saw this as god.  I know it as an advanced alien intelligence which humans have often considered to be god, due to its "miraculous " technological abilities  

Thanks for the Christmas wishes and back at you, but its almost 10 hours into boxing day here.  Sydney to Hobart yacht race and boxing day cricket test against the poms about to start Ill be offline for a bit  :) 

Bucke clearly states this is “of course’ from the point of view of self consciousness which he defines as imagination, thought and reason. 
 

Exactly what 8ty pointed out, your link says the same. 

Edited by Sherapy
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58 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I didnt take that test in part because i could easily have cheated at it 

You didn't take the test because you can't read at the speeds you claim. There are certainly ways that would have significantly minimized the potential for cheating.

Quote

This could then have been pointed out to challenge my results   Ive done similar tests online and exceeded the maximum word limit available in the time set  with about 75 %  accurate recall (which is as much as a normal reader would have, when tested)  

That's nice and all.

The person conducting to this test would have been aware of the ability to cheat and would have specific controls in place to not allow for that. Inserting control questions to ensure proper retention (i.e. potentially asking a question about a non-existent element in the story) as you claim, etc.

It could have very easily been ensured that no cheating was possible, but sure.

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

We couldn't retrieve it, but i helped the poster find out what had happened to it. 

This particular abilty works best in close physical contact with people and when they have a strong emotional need for help.

Always shifting the goal posts. Nothing more than charlatan tactics.

I suppose if your ability was challenged in-person because you didn't help them find what they were looking for, you would say "Oh they must not have had a strong emotional need for help", etc.

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

It sounds like he is a real piece of work. It’s funny some people will make those kind of threats, and you sit and wait for them to show up and when they do something like that happens. Now the whole time you are sitting there waiting for them your getting mad and then you get anger and the individual shows up and you see it took all their courage to show up. Then as fast you became angry you see the person is frightened and all the anger just goes away, I mean at least for me, because how do you put hands on someone who’s obviously frightened I can’t do it, because I would feel terrible later. I suspect if that exact situation occurred to me I would just turn around and go in the house and close the door!:D

Its the same for bullies who like to beat women.  If the woman takes a step towards them (instead of backing up) when they threaten her they do a disappearing act.

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27 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Its the same for bullies who like to beat women.  If the woman takes a step towards them (instead of backing up) when they threaten her they do a disappearing act.

Yea, I can certainly understand that.:yes:

However, if that were the case in this situation where the guy was acting frightened after just hurling a women or a child it would make no difference to me, that guy would feel my anger.  I just really hate any man that for any reason would lay hands on a women or child. During my life on a number of occasions I have stepped into situations like that were occurring in public. Once in Lakewood Washington in 1992 my wife and I had just left a restaurant walking to our car to leave, when directly to my left there was screen and this guy was dragging a women to a car by her hair. Well, I always carried concealed, so I pulled out my pistol and handed it to my wife because I did not want to get into a physical altercation carrying a gun, you just don’t know what occur.

Anyway, I ran over to the ******* and politely told him to stop, well he told me to screw myself. Well somehow he accident tripped on a curb in the parking lot and did a face plant that knocked himself out. Sonwe took the girl to a local hospital, where she could get treated and at that time the police were called. Well we told the police what happened and then the guy comes into the emergency room. The idiot tried to create a problem for me saying thing like I had punch him and kicked him in the face, but after seeing the condition of the girl and having talked with her, the police just put the guy face first on the floor and handcuffed the jackass. However, I agree with you that a women can make a Bully back down, unfortunately though many will not do because of latter repercussions.

Take care Desertrat, Merry Christmas and I wish you a very very happy New Year my friend:tu:

 

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1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

You didn't take the test because you can't read at the speeds you claim. There are certainly ways that would have significantly minimized the potential for cheating.

That's nice and all.

The person conducting to this test would have been aware of the ability to cheat and would have specific controls in place to not allow for that. Inserting control questions to ensure proper retention (i.e. potentially asking a question about a non-existent element in the story) as you claim, etc.

It could have very easily been ensured that no cheating was possible, but sure.

You are entitled to your beliefs no matter how false they are  All my family can read  (with good comprehension) a t similar speeds indeed my brother is slightly faster than Iam We all began reading when about 3 years old and all were trained by our parents All of us have or had in my case  libraries of over 10000 books and, on many days  we all read   .well over 100000 words ie more than one full length novel.

 Nup I could have copied and pasted any  piece of reading and then  answered the questions from  the  copied material.

While there is a time limit on the time available  to read, there is not really one on the time allowed to answer question on the text.   because that t relies on typing computing skills, not reading ones. 

Online tests I have done consistently show a normal reading skill of about 700 wpm with around  80% recall/ correct answers. Eg president Kennedy's inaugural address

I honestly don't understand  why this is questioned. It is not unusual Many people read much faster, with even belter recall but hey tend to specialise in this skil.

I was a lot faster, and had 100% recall, when I was studying at uni. There are things i am not good at, like musical instruments and things I am good at like reading 

 

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16 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You are entitled to your beliefs no matter how false they are 

You're entitled to make claims, no matter how false they are.

Quote

While there is a time limit on the time available  to read, there is not really one on the time allowed to answer question on the text.   because that t relies on typing computing skills, not reading ones. 

Not if it's multiple choice with no ability to go back and read the text, with a timer on answering each question. About a minute would be allotted. You'd be given an amount of time proportional to the average wpm you claim.

Copying text would also be disabled on the page. And it'd be a writing of my choosing. It could be an article extracted from an old edition of Scientific American, etc, that may or may not have control questions.

Let's just say I would make it such that there would be no way for you to cheat on it. :)

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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God bless us everyone!:yes:

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1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Always shifting the goal posts. Nothing more than charlatan tactics.

I suppose if your ability was challenged in-person because you didn't help them find what they were looking for, you would say "Oh they must not have had a strong emotional need for help", etc.

Never shifted the goal posts, the y have  always been the same.

I is why I explain tha t online tests probably wont work But if you have a real need, and are physically  close to me there is a high chance i can help you.  if i cant I will tell you immediately.

  I've never  got a location wrong  but sometimes I cant get any impression of where an object might be. 

I suspect that the perron who has lost it  might have to have a subconscious memory of where it is or the person who might have take it  has to be close by

its a mind reading skill more than anything else  Sometimes the object cant be recovered eg i told  a fellow teacher who came tome for help,  that t his usb with all his reports was on the bottom of the ocean.

Only then did he recall tha t it had been in his shirt pocket and he remembered   an impression of something flying past his face as he cast his rod .

second a young woman had lost a precious gold nugget pendant given to her by her grandfather 

I told her that it had been in a duffle bag in a cupboard. 

She then recalled that she had taken it off while camping and put it in that bag  BUT she had asked her flat mates in Darwin if it was in the bag. They said no, but after i said where i had seen it,  she suspected they had simply taken it  

 

Online here  I  told a poster, who asked for help  to locate it,  that a precious  family heirloom  had been pawned ,

Only then did she tell me that she had suspected this.

Her brother was a drug addict and, while he denied it, she believed he had pawned it for drug money

In each case the person already had in their mind a subconscious knowledge of where the object might be.

You probably don't believe  any of this this, but the local people are still around.

I don't need to prove the stories true, but there are plenty of witnesses. Enough that I get a steady stream of people,  who have heard of  these events, asking me to locate lost or stolen objects.  

I haven't had one failure in the last couple of years, or in the last   dozen  requests, although in two cases the object was " lost" permanently.  

 

   

 

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2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Manwon

I thought it was funny and didn’t get worked up about him because he was used to intimidating women and not men.

Yea, I know what you mean but if Numb Nuts had touched daughter I would not have held back I dont think so your a better man then me!:yes:

Peace

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Just now, Mr Walker said:

I don't need to prove the stories true, but there are plenty of witnesses. Enough that I get a steady stream of people,  who have heard of  these events, asking me to locate lost or stolen objects.  

Yeah yeah, heard it all before from charlatans before you and also likely will hear it from many charlatans that will come after you.

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Some feelings aren't worth hanging on to, petty, ephemeral, of the moment. Lord forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Most of all, grant us the strength to forgive ourselves.

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17 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

You're entitled to make claims, no matter how false they are.

Not if it's multiple choice with no ability to go back and read the text, with a timer on answering each question. About a minute would be allotted. You'd be given an amount of time proportional to the average wpm you claim.

Copying text would also be disabled on the page. And it'd be a writing of my choosing. It could be an article extracted from an old edition of Scientific American, etc, that may or may not have control questions.

Let's just say I would make it such that there would be no way for you to cheat on it. :)

Nup That's what sherapy said But she failed to understand that i could copy the text, then answer it from the copy  once the time limit on the text expired and it disappeared.

I can read fast enough to find all the answers  very quickly  (in seconds) 

However its hard to determine how much time i might need to answer the questions 

Multiple choice would use less time but also aid in recall /locating a piece of text   Having to type answers would take more time and allow more time to cheat.

  After id made my initial claims  (based on how long it takes me to read a book of 30000 words  ( about 50 minutes))  I went to several sites online just to ensure i hadn't been exaggerating my speed. if anything i had been underestimating it when reading a short  piece  The longer a piece the harder it is to  judge  the speed as you tend to stop, mentally or physically, for short periods  during an hour's reading  I often read for 3 hours a t a time   which is enough to read a full average sized novel (80000 to 100000 words )

Last night after cleaning up after  Christmas  dinner.  i read the two latest novels by Jack Carr (author of The Terminal List)  (about 120000 words each )and a shorter western of about 30000 words I would have kept reading, but my wife told me to put my bed light out around 2 am :) 

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15 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Yeah yeah, heard it all before from charlatans before you and also likely will hear it from many charlatans that will come after you.

knowing I have the witnesses, that is really very funny :) 

 

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17 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Nup That's what sherapy said But she failed to understand that i could copy the text, then answer it from the copy  once the time limit on the text expired and it disappeared.

I can read fast enough to find all the answers  very quickly  (in seconds) 

However its hard to determine how much time i might need to answer the questions 

Multiple choice would use less time but also aid in recall /locating a piece of text   Having to type answers would take more time and allow more time to cheat.

  After id made my initial claims  (based on how long it takes me to read a book of 30000 words  ( about 50 minutes))  I went to several sites online just to ensure i hadn't been exaggerating my speed. if anything i had been underestimating it when reading a short  piece  The longer a piece the harder it is to  judge  the speed as you tend to stop, mentally or physically, for short periods  during an hour's reading  I often read for 3 hours a t a time   which is enough to read a full average sized novel (80000 to 100000 words )

Last night after cleaning up after  Christmas  dinner.  i read the two latest novels by Jack Carr (author of The Terminal List)  (about 120000 words each )and a shorter western of about 30000 words I would have kept reading, but my wife told me to put my bed light out around 2 am :) 

You're not comprehending what I am telling you.

You would be given a test that would not allow you to reference the readings.

Once the time limited has passed for reading the text, it will disappear.

You will be unable to go back. You will be forced to answer the multiple choice answer within a minute, which is generous. Failure to do so in the time allotted would result in 0 points for the question.

Again, there could be control questions found within this test, so some of the choices might have been in the test, but if you are able to recall information as accurately as you claim, then that will be a non-issue.

It's nice that you keep telling me about how fast you are reading. If you're not willing to collaborate with me to get a test going to prove it then you can't really get mad at me for saying that what you're telling me is nonsense.

I guarantee you that I would make the test such that you can't possibly fail it if your abilities are as you claim. It will be designed to ensure that you are retaining rather than skimming.

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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11 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

knowing I have the witnesses, that is really very funny :) 

 

Almost as funny as the claim itself. :lol:

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3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Now I don't bother as peole assume that such a failure proves something .

It does not, of course. 

Spoken like a true fraud.

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3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I didnt take that test in part because i could easily have cheated at it 

This could then have been pointed out to challenge my results   Ive done similar tests online and exceeded the maximum word limit available in the time set  with about 75 %  accurate recall (which is as much as a normal reader would have, when tested)  

 I generally read a t about 600 words a minute  but can read and comprehend much faster than tha t with a lot of concentration  (Several thousand words a minute ) It literally gives me a headache so I don't use it while reading for pleasure  Recall is not affected by speed if, when reading, you sight every word.  I can sight a page a t a time  allowing me to see a page in total like a single word. That takes a second or two.  There are generally about 300 words on a page, giving a potential reading speed of about 100 words per second  or 6000 words per minute .Thats not normally possible due to physical constraints, like turning pages,   but half that is easily achievable     

Ps all my family has a a similar reading speed.

Even my wife  reads 2 or 3 books every day.  ie she is not a sibling but has a similar reading skill 

Mr. Walker, no one believes your able to read 600 words a minute or faster. Now the issue I have is not I dont believe, I believe you may be able to do so, however I suspect your reading comprehension is severely compromised and that in reality you are unable to retain what you have read in a comprehensive manner. So do me a favor here is a very very easy test you should have no problems with at all my friend! Please take it and publish the results online in this thread.

Go to the site below take the practice test, and honestly if you are unable or unwilling to take the test and publish your score here,

Mensa IQ Test Practice Home Page | Mensa International 

Please just humor me!:tu:

 

 

 

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