Europe's oldest civilization

[Abramelin]

Years ago (2003) The Independent published an article about finds in Saxony, Austria and Bohemia (?), claiming German archaeologists had found traces of what then was called Europe's oldest civilization.

I know it was posted here on UM, but I couldn't find it.

What I now want to know is if there are already any updates after so many years.

 

As a reminder:

https://m.dw.com/en/europes-eastern-german-cradle/a-1611474

"While Greece and Italy have so far laid claim to Europe's oldest civilizations, Germany's struggling eastern regions seem set to challenge this.

That's because one of the most complex centers of what's likely Europe's oldest civilization has been discovered in Dresden as archeologists have unearthed traces of the ancient culture across the continent, The Independent newspaper said Saturday.

More than 150 large temples, constructed between 4,800 BC and 4,600 BC, have been unearthed in fields and cities in Germany, Austria and Slovakia, predating the pyramids in Egypt by some 2,000 years, the newspaper revealed.

The network of temples, made of earth and wood, were constructed by a religious people whose economy appears to have been based on livestock farming, the paper reported.
Excavations have taken place over the past three years but the discovery is so new that the civilization has not yet been named."

 

The original article in The Independent can now only be read if you're willing to pay for it.

However, here's a German article about the same, and with photo's :

LINK

Btw., the German article is much less 'over the top' than the British article: it's nothing new, it is known for years (before 2003).

Edited November 20, 2021 by Abramelin

[jethrofloyd]

This could be a part of the same civilazation:

Archaeologists in Bulgaria say they have uncovered the oldest prehistoric town found to date in Europe.

''Archaeologists believe that the town was home to some 350 people and dates back to between 4700 and 4200 BC.''

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20156681

[Abramelin]

10 minutes ago, jethrofloyd said:

This could be a part of the same civilazation:

Archaeologists in Bulgaria say they have uncovered the oldest prehistoric town found to date in Europe.

''Archaeologists believe that the town was home to some 350 people and dates back to between 4700 and 4200 BC.''

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20156681

I was thinking of that, but those finds are from eastern Europe, and probably belonging to the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture.

[Abramelin]

I believe that the main message here is that the ancient Europeans were into building large structures, and maybe based on some sort of religion/philosophy.

And all that contrary to 'popular opinion', or 'common sense'.

Btw., the oldest depiction of woven clothing is found in west European cave art.

One of the, or maybe THE oldest script was found in Europe (Vinça script).

The oldest archaeological find of woven fabric was found west/near Denmark.

In short: we Europeans have, for far too long, been focussed on the Middle East, Mesopotamia, or Ancient Egypt.

"Ex Oriente Lux",  nah.

Even the Ancient Egyptians appear to have come from near the Black Sea area (based on genetics and legend).

Cheers!

Edited November 20, 2021 by Abramelin

[godnodog]

Define civilization.

At what point can a human settlement be considered a civilization?

Human traces in Portugal trace back to well over 30k years. Pretty sure other parts in Europe also have the same or older.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.natgeo.pt/historia/2020/11/arqueologos-provam-que-ocupacao-humana-em-portugal-foi-antes-do-que-se-pensava/amp

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, godnodog said:

Define civilization.

At what point can a human settlement be considered a civilization?

Why should I? It's about culture.

I only quoted from articles.

But if a culture has spread across a very large area (Europe), maybe it is allowed to call it a civilization?

This nitpicking resembles the naming of planets and not-really-planets (Pluto).

[godnodog]

8 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Why should I? It's about culture.

I only quoted from articles.

But if a culture has spread across a very large area (Europe), maybe it is allowed to call it a civilization?

This nitpicking resembles the naming of planets and not-really-planets (Pluto)

So it's about culture? Portugal and Spain still beats them by around half a millenia, hey but I'm nitpicking.

 

[Abramelin]

4 minutes ago, godnodog said:

So it's about culture? Portugal and Spain still beats them by around half a millenia, hey but I'm nitpicking.

 

Portugal and Spain are still located in Europe as far as I know?

Edited November 20, 2021 by Abramelin

[godnodog]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Portugal and Spain are still located in Europe as far as I know?

What?

[Abramelin]

6 minutes ago, godnodog said:

What?

I am trying to convey that  maybe, Europe's ancient cultures outdate the Mesopotamian ones and the AE one.

So that should include anything Iberian, right?

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

One of the, or maybe THE oldest script was found in Europe (Vinça script).

Maybe I should correct this:

The oldest script was found in China.

[godnodog]

3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I am trying to convey that  maybe, Europe's ancient cultures outdate the Mesopotamian ones and the AE one.

So that should include anything Iberian, right?

I didn't understand what you meant.

To be honest I've seen some weird  news and theories surrounding Iberia, and none of the stories came from places like UM or weird conspiracy/hidden history sites.

Some time ago a theory showed up, and it was in the news, that life on Earth originated here, personally I don't give it any credit, not for being farfetched but for being IMO impossible to prove it.

There was another one, but I really don't remember it properly, it was that maybe writing (not sure if it was writing) could have been first developed in. Don't take my word on this, I really do not recall.

The point is Iberia's human presence is stupidly old. Here in Portugal we have an ancient structure nicknamed "Portugal's Stonehenge" that is almost 5k years older than Stonehenge. Its called Cromeleque dos Almendres.

 

[Abramelin]

7 minutes ago, godnodog said:

Cromeleque dos Almendres.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almendres_Cromlech

Thank you,  @godnodog

Edited November 20, 2021 by Abramelin

[godnodog]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almendres_Cromlech

That's the one

[jethrofloyd]

15 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Btw., the oldest depiction of woven clothing is found in west European cave art.

The oldest archaeological find of woven fabric was found west/near Denmark.

In short: we Europeans have, for far too long, been focussed on the Middle East, Mesopotamia, or Ancient Egypt.

 

And, the oldest handcrafted musical instrument yet discovered is found in Germany. The 35.000 years old bird-bone flute:

The oldest known man-made figurine is olso found in Germany. The Venus of Hohle Fels, made of mammoth ivory 35,000-40,000 years ago.

 

[Harte]

You can't just let the "civilization" categorization float downstream to the culture you like.

While it is somewhat broad, the classification does require settling into cities.

Harte

[Duke Wellington]

On 11/20/2021 at 2:05 PM, Abramelin said:

Years ago (2003) The Independent published an article about finds in Saxony, Austria and Bohemia (?), claiming German archaeologists had found traces of what then was called Europe's oldest civilization.

I know it was posted here on UM, but I couldn't find it.

What I now want to know is if there are already any updates after so many years.

 

As a reminder:

https://m.dw.com/en/europes-eastern-german-cradle/a-1611474

"While Greece and Italy have so far laid claim to Europe's oldest civilizations, Germany's struggling eastern regions seem set to challenge this.

That's because one of the most complex centers of what's likely Europe's oldest civilization has been discovered in Dresden as archeologists have unearthed traces of the ancient culture across the continent, The Independent newspaper said Saturday.

More than 150 large temples, constructed between 4,800 BC and 4,600 BC, have been unearthed in fields and cities in Germany, Austria and Slovakia, predating the pyramids in Egypt by some 2,000 years, the newspaper revealed.

The network of temples, made of earth and wood, were constructed by a religious people whose economy appears to have been based on livestock farming, the paper reported.
Excavations have taken place over the past three years but the discovery is so new that the civilization has not yet been named."

 

The original article in The Independent can now only be read if you're willing to pay for it.

However, here's a German article about the same, and with photo's :

LINK

Btw., the German article is much less 'over the top' than the British article: it's nothing new, it is known for years (before 2003).

Indo-Europeans are believed to have evolved somewhere around the Ukraine, Northern Middle East and Southern Russia. There are lots of mounds and buried ruins in those areas which have never been excavated or investigated. They may have also been under what is today the offshore regions of the Black Sea before it flooded. 

What we have to be careful of is saying ruins in an area relate to the populations living there today. There has been a lot of historical movement. These most recent findings in Germany would seem to be pre Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Cultures due to their age.

[Abramelin]

20 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

What we have to be careful of is saying ruins in an area relate to the populations living there today. There has been a lot of historical movement.

I don't see any European here suggesting that it were her/his ancient ancestors who were responsible for the constructions found. Most of us know of those migrations.

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 11/20/2021 at 11:30 PM, Abramelin said:

I was thinking of that, but those finds are from eastern Europe, and probably belonging to the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture.

Here is a Peer Reviewed Journal that may be helpful. These discoveries were made in Dresden German, pay particular attention to the References at the end the also have links and information on the oldest Neolithic discoveries made in the region you were discussing in the OP.

Early Neolithic Water Wells Reveal the World's Oldest Wood Architecture: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0051374

[Hanslune]

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I don't see any European here suggesting that it were her/his ancient ancestors who were responsible for the constructions found. Most of us know of those migrations.

People have been sloshing around the world for hundreds of thousands of years. It really hard to say - except in the most general way - that 'someone' is associated with a piece of ground. At present HSS appears to have evolved in Africa then spread out from there but then mated with earlier 'leavers' the Denisovians and Neanderthals and perhaps a few others folks. So who came from where and when becomes complicated.

I thought the current theory is that after Neanderthals HSS came into Europe in three waves.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29213892

Is this one still in play?

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

Is this one still in play?

As far as I remember, one branch left Africa 60,000 years ago, and went in the direction of China. But that's a rather recent discovery.

The Jebel Irhoud man was present in Morocco up to 300,000 yrs ago. Living close to the Strait of Gibraltar at a time the sea level was a lot lower (Spartel Island) than at present, he may have crossed it.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Abramelin

[Hanslune]

6 hours ago, Abramelin said:

As far as I remember, one branch left Africa 60,000 years ago, and went in the direction of China. But that's a rather recent discovery.

The Jebel Irhoud man was present in Morocco up to 300,000 yrs ago. Living close to the Strait of Gibraltar at a time the sea level was a lot lower (Spartel Island) than at present, he may have crossed it.

Yes, one would think that he did at some point unless he feared the Neanderthals. In one of first anthropology classes I took Professor Boggs made a very dramatic demonstration. The class was in a converted movie theatrer for 700 people so large walls. He walled over to one of these three story walls and took out a pencil and jabbed it at the concrete.

He said that dot is the amount of material we have found off all the people who ever walked in Europe. the walls - on both sides  stands for the number who actually did so.

Yeah so lots of stuff has not yet been found.

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/55603612/Richter_et_al__2017__NL-with-cover-page-v2.pdf?Expires=1637632082&Signature=e5KTecYDlK9hv~grq0kVFSMEAz9yZWRiJwsXLWnKZaBpuWr0rVmILNr1ZY-uvkgbMMbu9rCGALlCl2ydD8oANhABzBrO~M09js3eZsh4iL8z-PjAg4o8v6W-tHkpISujhtjM1DttDSJxfgDxP3uSCdArxfUR8zXc4buOQ37fe5t3cEWjOpQQ9qvQjVdEwbJmZrxaDlyQpXQ10nYm6uL29iUSSTlwZxVe~RiYYHNSBtC0kpQAmC9xhsGRSgQuT~cFr8jRb3LFaozI6WGFxmrn8DFNiOFiLXp4eipIFv7wm6KS83UMY-PreomO82gCn4xQsSiGqc86BZoTfPpD1lqkEw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebel_Irhoud

[Grim Reaper 6]

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

As far as I remember, one branch left Africa 60,000 years ago, and went in the direction of China. But that's a rather recent discovery.

The Jebel Irhoud man was present in Morocco up to 300,000 yrs ago. Living close to the Strait of Gibraltar at a time the sea level was a lot lower (Spartel Island) than at present, he may have crossed it.

Here is a interesting article concerning your comments above concerning Archic Humans Ancestors moving towards China.  The purpose of this information is that more than 60,000 years ago a group must have left Africa and headed towards China. It amazing how many still are not aware of this discovery of the Human Hybrid Child's discovery in The Siberian Cave. 

The paper below is fully Peer Reviewed and accurate, it creates an interesting enigma that is very difficult to explain. 

Mum’s a Neanderthal, Dad’s a Denisovan: First discovery of an ancient-human hybrid :  https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-06004-0

""A female who died around 90,000 years ago was half Neanderthal and half Denisovan, according to genome analysis of a bone discovered in a Siberian cave. This is the first time scientists have identified an ancient individual whose parents belonged to distinct human groups. The findings were published on 22 August in Nature1""

“To find a first-generation person of mixed ancestry from these groups is absolutely extraordinary,” says population geneticist Pontus Skoglund at the Francis Crick Institute in London. “It’s really great science coupled with a little bit of luck.”

The complete mitochondrial DNA genome of an unknown hominin from southern Siberia: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20336068/?dopt=Abstract

By the way I am still looking for addition information on the main topic and the Civilization your researching, I think I can bring more information to the table soon. I have an account that am referencing that may be helpful.

[Abramelin]

On 11/23/2021 at 1:49 AM, Hanslune said:

Yes, one would think that he did at some point unless he feared the Neanderthals. In one of first anthropology classes I took Professor Boggs made a very dramatic demonstration. The class was in a converted movie theatrer for 700 people so large walls. He walled over to one of these three story walls and took out a pencil and jabbed it at the concrete.

He said that dot is the amount of material we have found off all the people who ever walked in Europe. the walls - on both sides  stands for the number who actually did so.

Yeah so lots of stuff has not yet been found.

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/55603612/Richter_et_al__2017__NL-with-cover-page-v2.pdf?Expires=1637632082&Signature=e5KTecYDlK9hv~grq0kVFSMEAz9yZWRiJwsXLWnKZaBpuWr0rVmILNr1ZY-uvkgbMMbu9rCGALlCl2ydD8oANhABzBrO~M09js3eZsh4iL8z-PjAg4o8v6W-tHkpISujhtjM1DttDSJxfgDxP3uSCdArxfUR8zXc4buOQ37fe5t3cEWjOpQQ9qvQjVdEwbJmZrxaDlyQpXQ10nYm6uL29iUSSTlwZxVe~RiYYHNSBtC0kpQAmC9xhsGRSgQuT~cFr8jRb3LFaozI6WGFxmrn8DFNiOFiLXp4eipIFv7wm6KS83UMY-PreomO82gCn4xQsSiGqc86BZoTfPpD1lqkEw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebel_Irhoud

Your first link says "access denied".

[Hanslune]

8 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Your first link says "access denied".

Try these - and may I ask what you may have been up to that would so annoy the internet!

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature22335?source=post_page---------------------------

https://kar.kent.ac.uk/62267/1/Submission_288356_1_art_file_2637492_j96j1b.pdf