Shoplifting and looting becoming more common

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Let's see some real research on this topic.  Opinions and "real world experience (biased sampling)" don't prove much of anything.

Doug

Answer this Doug, does policy have any affect on crime rates?  If it does then what effect would not punishing people for committing crimes be?  I can answer that as I'm living through it.  It emboldens criminals and crime skyrockets.

[Myles]

38 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Probably.  But how long does a transition take?

Doug

Not sure but certainly less than 100 years.  

The transaction in San Fran is moving pretty quickly, just the wrong way.

[+OverSword]

Here is the kind of things going on here and what I mean by bad policies

Quote

 

Western State Hospital knowingly hired and promoted a prolific offender. It didn’t end well for the patients in his care, nor Washington taxpayers. He’s now accused of stealing money from mental patients. But he maintained his job thanks to the state’s “equity” agenda that pretends felons are worthy of endless chances.

Mark James was hired as an Institution Counselor on April 24, 2017. The date is notable because he was booked into the Pierce County Jail on a fugitive warrant from Oregon just 13 days earlier. The Tacoma News Tribune (TNT), which first reported the story, notes the hire happened six days after he was booked on charges of dealing heroin and other drug-related offenses in Oregon.

Washington state hiring officials knew James had at least 22 felony convictions for drug possession, identity theft, forgery, and theft since the 1990s. He said he underwent several background checks. Washington state hired him anyway.

While employed with the state, TNT reports James earned five more felony drug convictions.

Oregon police said James was dealing heroin and had 19 grams of heroin, a gram of cocaine, and a scale and packaging material when arrested. After pleading guilty, he was sentenced to 30 days in jail and 36 months of probation.

His supervisor at the time, Allison Bayba, and coworkers at Western State Hospital didn’t seem to mind. In 2018, they wrote to the judge on his behalf. Bayba called him an “exemplary employee.”

 

https://mynorthwest.com/3729776/rantz-state-knowingly-hired-promoted-felon-now-accused-of-stealing-from-western-state-hospital-patients/

Western State Hospital is a state run mental institution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_State_Hospital_(Washington)

Edited November 29, 2022 by OverSword

[Doug1066]

3 hours ago, OverSword said:

Answer this Doug, does policy have any affect on crime rates?  If it does then what effect would not punishing people for committing crimes be?  I can answer that as I'm living through it.  It emboldens criminals and crime skyrockets.

You are extrapolating from a very small sample located in the Pacific Northwest.  You aren't even looking at the rest of the country.  Your area could well be the exception.  Forget the Republican propaganda and lets see some actual research on the subject.

Doug

[Doug1066]

2 hours ago, Myles said:

Not sure but certainly less than 100 years.  

The transaction in San Fran is moving pretty quickly, just the wrong way.

We'll need some markers so we know how long the transition takes in different locations.  Can you suggest any?  I'd have to do some digging to see what other people have used.

Doug

[+OverSword]

17 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

You are extrapolating from a very small sample located in the Pacific Northwest.  You aren't even looking at the rest of the country.  Your area could well be the exception.  Forget the Republican propaganda and lets see some actual research on the subject.

Doug

Does policy affect the crime rate?  Is that really too tough to answer?  That question really just answers itself.

Edited November 29, 2022 by OverSword

[Doug1066]

35 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Does policy affect the crime rate?  Is that really too tough to answer?  That question really just answers itself.

I agree that it does and for that reason we must see that Trump and his criminal cohorts do prison time, else they are likely to attempt another act of treason.

 

On the original topic of your post:  it is grossly unfair to use money for bonding purposes as we currently do it.  For some, a bond is just a licensing fee, while for others who can't raise it, it is just an excuse to put them in jail.  I propose an alternate solution:  no bond, but if you do anything that could result in a bond being revoked, you go to jail until trial.

Doug

Edited November 29, 2022 by Doug1066

[+OverSword]

8 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I agree that it does and for that reason we must see that Trump and his criminal cohorts do prison time, else they are likely to attempt another act of treason.

 

On the original topic of your post:  it is grossly unfair to use money for bonding purposes as we currently do it.  For some, a bond is just a licensing fee, while for others who can't raise it, it is just an excuse to put them in jail.  I propose an alternate solution:  no bond, but if you do anything that could result in a bond being revoked, you go to jail until trial.

Doug

How is that the original topic of my post?  But I see by this above post that you would probably agree with our city council and blame the system rather than the criminals.  We have other great ideas here in our state too such as no chasing criminals that won't pull over if they start speeding. What could go wrong we asked?  Now every time someone robs a bank or whatever major crime it happens to be they steal a car first and when the police try to pull them over they simply drive away.  They passed that law to keep accidents caused by police chases from happening.  Policy.  That's a main cause of emboldened criminals and higher crime rates.

[Doug1066]

6 minutes ago, OverSword said:

How is that the original topic of my post?  But I see by this above post that you would probably agree with our city council and blame the system rather than the criminals.  We have other great ideas here in our state too such as no chasing criminals that won't pull over if they start speeding. What could go wrong we asked?  Now every time someone robs a bank or whatever major crime it happens to be they steal a car first and when the police try to pull them over they simply drive away.  They passed that law to keep accidents caused by police chases from happening.  Policy.  That's a main cause of emboldened criminals and higher crime rates.

Have you ever heard of putting a drone overhead and recording what it sees?  Then all you have to do is get out the footage and see where the car went.  And see where it came from.  You could bag yourself a whole criminal gang that way.

 

One thing about policy:  it has to be the same for everyone.  We already have a government where the rich get away with everything while the poor sit in jail waiting for a trial that may be years away.  People have been held longer awaiting trial than they would had they been found guilty.  And Trump has not yet done any jail time, though it has been nearly two years since he tried to overthrow the government.

 

Speaking of crime rates:  https://www.safehome.org/resources/crime-statistics-by-state/

Some crimes go up; some crimes go down.

 

If party made a difference, Oklahoma would be nearly crime free.  We have very few Democrats in office anywhere.

 

BTW:  here in deep red Oklahoma, our largest cities all have Republican mayors, including OKC, Tulsa, Norman and Broken Arrow.  And their crimes rates are just as bad as any Democratic-run city elsewhere.  It doesn't matter what party you belong to, only what policies you implement.  Now, if only somebody could find an effective policy to implement - like making possession of an unlicensed firearm a criminal offense with a ten-year minimum sentence.  That would take a lot of criminals off the streets.

Doug

 

 

 

[+OverSword]

51 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Have you ever heard of putting a drone overhead and recording what it sees?  Then all you have to do is get out the footage and see where the car went.  And see where it came from.  You could bag yourself a whole criminal gang that way.

Right.  It's so simple so why don't they just do that?   Why don't they just do that all over the country and bust every criminal?

51 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

One thing about policy:  it has to be the same for everyone.  We already have a government where the rich get away with everything while the poor sit in jail waiting for a trial that may be years away.  People have been held longer awaiting trial than they would had they been found guilty.  And Trump has not yet done any jail time, though it has been nearly two years since he tried to overthrow the government.

Which has really no bearing on the quality of life for the average person the way property crime and assaults and murder do.  

51 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

If party made a difference, Oklahoma would be nearly crime free.  We have very few Democrats in office anywhere.

 

Oklahoma, the 6th poorest state in the union.  Where there is poverty there is crime and OK has a high crime rate because of lack of high paying jobs and a low median household income. 

51 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

BTW:  here in deep red Oklahoma, our largest cities all have Republican mayors, including OKC, Tulsa, Norman and Broken Arrow.  And their crimes rates are just as bad as any Democratic-run city elsewhere.  It doesn't matter what party you belong to, only what policies you implement.  Now, if only somebody could find an effective policy to implement - like making possession of an unlicensed firearm a criminal offense with a ten-year minimum sentence.  That would take a lot of criminals off the streets.

Of course they do they're dirt poor compared to wealthy cities and states and can't throw money at it like we can.  Like I said poverty causes crime.  Where there is a lot of money policy causes crime.  I bet if Tulsa had the money that Seattle does crime would be lower.  I know this because before our city council defunded the police and shrank our departments and before we had activists working in our prosecutors offices and in the courts we had low crime rates.  It's only since these new policies went into effect in the last three years that we have really seen crime at these levels.  It's not a coincidence.

Edited November 29, 2022 by OverSword

[+OverSword]

@Doug1066 If the Tulsa police department got rid of 1/3 of their police force and budget and were not allowed to chase criminals would the crime rate rise, shrink, or stay the same?

[Doug1066]

15 hours ago, OverSword said:

Right.  It's so simple so why don't they just do that?   Why don't they just do that all over the country and bust every criminal?

It's being done in Mexico as I write.

15 hours ago, OverSword said:

Oklahoma, the 6th poorest state in the union.  Where there is poverty there is crime and OK has a high crime rate because of lack of high paying jobs and a low median household income. 

So you don't think the same things that affect Oklahoma also affect other states?

15 hours ago, OverSword said:

the way property crime

Property crimes have decreased over the last decade.  Try reading my posts.

15 hours ago, OverSword said:

Like I said poverty causes crime. 

I have to agree with you here.  So why is there poverty?  Does it have anything to do with poor policies?

Doug

[Doug1066]

15 hours ago, OverSword said:

@Doug1066 If the Tulsa police department got rid of 1/3 of their police force and budget and were not allowed to chase criminals would the crime rate rise, shrink, or stay the same?

Hard to say.  The police force in Tulsa has ALWAYS had problems ever since it was founded by a member of the Dulin gang.  It is the source of many crimes.  Remember the picture of the dead body in The Outlaw Josey Wales?  That's Bill Dulin.

The defund-the-police folks are asking that the money be used for mental health officers who would respond to mental health emergencies which police now respond to.  So the work load on police is reduced and fewer police are needed.  Is that what happened in your area, or did your local governments squander the money?  If so, why didn't you get involved to stop it?

Speaking of mental health problems:  police work is very stressful.  There was a video recorded by the victim's girlfriend a couple years ago.  She was live-streaming a traffic stop from the car.  Her boyfriend had a concealed-carry permit and a gun and showed the permit to the officers along with his license and registration.  Watching the video one can see genuine fear on the officer's face.  He seemed to feel he was being threatened when the people were doing exactly what is recommended for such situations.  Why would he be afraid of someone who is complying exactly with the law?  Stress.  He was in the throws of a mental health breakdown.  He should never have been put on the street in such a condition.  His department failed both him and the public they are supposed to protect by not getting him the proper help.

Proposal:  six mental health counselling sessions should be part of every department's workman's comp insurance along with more available through personal insurance provided by the department as part of its health insurance program.  Time off (sick leave) with pay should be granted for these sessions.  The counselor should have the authority to assign the officer to a less-stressful situation, like doing desk work, or even placing him on sick leave, until the problem can be mitigated.

That might go a long way toward preventing police murders (crimes).

 

Here are some videos of police shootings mostly taken by bystanders, security cameras and police body cameras,

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/police-shootings-caught-on-tape-video/

Doug

[Myles]

15 hours ago, OverSword said:

@Doug1066 If the Tulsa police department got rid of 1/3 of their police force and budget and were not allowed to chase criminals would the crime rate rise, shrink, or stay the same?

Of course it would grow.  The numbers would be skewed.  That has been shown in some cities that stopped prosecuting for shop lifting and stuff like that.  Keep the stats off the books and you look better even though your city is going to heck.

[+OverSword]

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

Hard to say.

It's easy to say.  Crime would rise.

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, Myles said:

Of course it would grow.

 

12 minutes ago, OverSword said:

It's easy to say.  Crime would rise.

Both are assumptions.  Let's see the research.

Doug

[+OverSword]

5 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

 

Both are assumptions.  Let's see the research.

Doug

Would you like to use a city that has done that as research?  Try Seattle or Portland.  

[Doug1066]

17 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Would you like to use a city that has done that as research?  Try Seattle or Portland.  

I am not into social research.  Dendrochronology and climate are my interests. As I am no more qualified than you in this area, I have to rely on those who are.

What I was looking for is a citation of an article by somebody who has actually done the research, not just regurgitated something off the Internet.

Doug

[+OverSword]

12 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I am not into social research.  Dendrochronology and climate are my interests. As I am no more qualified than you in this area, I have to rely on those who are.

What I was looking for is a citation of an article by somebody who has actually done the research, not just regurgitated something off the Internet.

Doug

They quote the rising numbers on the news all time,  You're ridiculous.  Can't even admit that making things easier for criminals to commit crime results in more crime   Have a nice day Doug

Edited November 30, 2022 by OverSword

[+DieChecker]

Portland this morning...

OregonLive: Smash-and-grab strikes REI in Portland’s Pearl District as retailers’ worries worsen.
https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2022/11/smash-and-grab-strikes-rei-in-portlands-pearl-district-as-retailers-worries-worsen.html

This wasn't the homeless. This was probably the organized retail robbers. REI is in the area of Portland that the homeless aren't tolerated... The Rick shopping area.

Sounds like they've also started hitting the Pot Shops. Probably in part for the pot, and because they are cash only.

From article...

Quote

Meanwhile, police are referring just a fraction of reported crimes to Multnomah County prosecutors, according to data released this month by District Attorney Mike Schmidt.

OregonLive: Portlanders report more property crime to police post-pandemic, but few cases make it to prosecution, data show.
https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2022/11/portlanders-report-more-property-crime-to-police-post-pandemic-but-few-cases-make-it-to-prosecution-data-show.html

Quote

Sgt. Kevin Allen, a spokesperson for the Portland Police Bureau, said the stats aren’t a surprise. Every level of the criminal justice system is strained, he said, from police to the courts to corrections.

“What we’re all doing is making tough decisions to prioritize the most important public safety needs and focus on those first,” he wrote in an email Thursday. “We realize that means that some cases and victims will not get the attention they deserve, and we are frustrated by that too.”

 

[Doug1066]

23 minutes ago, OverSword said:

They quote the rising numbers on the news all time,  You're ridiculous.  Can't even admit that making things easier for criminals to commit crime results in more crime   Have a nice day Doug

I suspect you are basing your conclusions on bs.  I want to see quality research on the subject, not your uninformed opinions.

I am refusing to make assumptions and that comes across to you as ridiculous.

Doug

[+OverSword]

7 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I suspect you are basing your conclusions on bs.  I want to see quality research on the subject, not your uninformed opinions.

I am refusing to make assumptions and that comes across to you as ridiculous.

Doug

Whatever you do, don't think for yourself, extrapolate existing facts to come to your own conclusion, use common sense, or simply admit it's a possibility.  Rather, wait for some anonymous expert to do a deep dive study and tell you what you believe.  

[Doug1066]

6 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Whatever you do, don't think for yourself, extrapolate existing facts to come to your own conclusion, use common sense, or simply admit it's a possibility.  Rather, wait for some anonymous expert to do a deep dive study and tell you what you believe.  

Those peer reviewed articles indicate that other professionals in that field recognize the expertise of the author(s).  One then takes their conclusions and tests them for oneself, using other articles and/or data one has collected for oneself.  THAT is thinking for yourself.  Base your conclusions on what is actually known to be true, not on your own speculations or what some anonymous Internet poster has put out there.

Doug

[+OverSword]

8 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Those peer reviewed articles indicate that other professionals in that field recognize the expertise of the author(s).  One then takes their conclusions and tests them for oneself, using other articles and/or data one has collected for oneself.  THAT is thinking for yourself.  Base your conclusions on what is actually known to be true, not on your own speculations or what some anonymous Internet poster has put out there.

Doug

Educate yourself a bit Doug.  Thread based on an article by a person that runs peer review platform and his opinion about flaws 

Or try this concerning appeals to authority

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

And if that's not enough, I just can't imagine being unable to form my own opinion based on available evidence and common sense.  Sad.  Very sad.

Edited November 30, 2022 by OverSword

[Gromdor]

I know of an easy way to compare.  Let's Google the three cities you guys mentioned you lived near and compare.  Scrolling up I see Tulsa, Portland, and Seattle.  Lets look them up.

Hmm.  Tulsa is really bad: Tulsa Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout

Heh, Seattle sucks too:Seattle Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout

Portland looks to be the best- barely: Portland, OR Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout

Looking at the states Tulsa is far worst for violent crime and after a quick google- is Republican controlled. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Gromdor