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Doug1066
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48 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

If there were a god, we would expect to find that:

1.  Evolution is false.  That is to say, our scientific understanding of the diversity of life would have to be irrefutably demolished.  The problem is not science vs. religion.  Those who say that science and personal faith are compatible have not come to terms with a few facts:  A.  We are an accident, an infinitesimal whimper in a four billion year chain of events.  When compressed into a single year, man emerges in the final 15 minutes.  If we are truly God's chosen, why did he spend so much time on "unsouled" microbes?

2.  God would appear to me or make its presence known to me.  Jesus made a lot of post-mortem appearances.  A god concerned about our affairs could appear to every one of us, leaving no doubt as to the truth.

3.  We were not made out of "star stuff."  If the human race were composed of material utterly foreign to the cosmos.  Such a radical discontinuity would argue that there was a god.  But, alas, we are the same as everything else.

4.  If a natural disaster were stopped in its tracks.  Something like the Boxer Day Tsunami.  A hurricaqne that mysteriously changed direction or an approaching asteroid that veered away at the last instant, might be evidence of god, if they happened.

5.  If the eficacy of prqayer could be demonstrated.  To date, there have been several well-controlled double-blind studies of this.  So far, the null hypothesis has been confirmed in every case (American Heart Journal, April 2006).

6.  If we were to observe a mdeical miracle:  qualifying miracles include regrowing an amputed limb or some other thing outside our genetic capacity.

7.  If miracles like those in the Bible occurred during the era of video cameras.  Or is god really dead?

8.  If we found two cultures that independently received asn identical revelation. 

9.  If divine messages were embedded in our physical laws.  An example:  the unending chain of numbers in the constsant pi might code for a Hindu or Buddhist script.  Suppose the pattern exactly match the one on our oldest biblical scripts.

10.  If there were not 10,000+ genetic disorders.  The wrong DNA in the wrong place can prove fatal to the unlucky individual who possesses it.  That's 411 babies every day that the all-powerful god choses not to rescue.  

11.  If the infant mortality rate dropped faster than could be explained by scientific advances.  Were the rate of improvement to experience a sudden sharp drop, this would be evidence for god.

12.  If people of one religion experinced notably less suffering than others.  Before you finish reading this, several dozen children will die in misery and hunger while the "saved" in America pray for parking spots.

13.  Consider the record of extinctions:  peraps as many as four trillion species have gone extinct.  We humans have come close several times.  At our low-point we were several thousand casualties away from joining that four trillion species.

14.  If the Bible were free of error and internally consistent.  This has been addressed on UM many times before, so I will not repeat it here.

15.  If the Bible or other Holyu test contained prescient moral and scientific truths.  We would expect the Bible to exhibit an ethical blueprint that ranscends cultural evolution.

16.  If biblical texts were purelu preserved.  We have not one original copy of any part of the Bible (I'll plead asn exception for the 104th Psalm).  If this book comes from God, why didn't he take better care of it?

17.  If Christianity were not so divided and had not repeatedly found itself on the wrong side of history while citing divine revelation.

18,  Would God need us to tell him how to reach us?

The foregoing is really irrelevant.  An all-knowing God would know exactly what it would take to convince each of us.

Doug

I'm going to do my best to go over each point. There seems to be one or more ideas that permeate through more than one point that is causing a lot of confusion.

1. Evolution does not need to be proven false. I think I have gone over this before on this forum. Although, many congregations strongly disagree some Christians and Jews can read this scripture correctly. There is no reason God couldn't have used evolution as the mechanism of his creation of life. 

2. God does make himself known to people. However he has a thing with discretion and stays secret. As for Jesus, he left the Earth and it is not known what exactly happened to him.

3. There is no reason for anything foreign to the cosmos to have been used. The nature of consciousness is still barely understood, so is the nature of God.

4. I'm not sure about Hurricanes. Tornadoes do spare tons of people though. We still as a species have not gone extinct to an asteroid.

5. There is a prayer against it.

6. We're hearing stories od medical miracles all the time. Personal stories of people getting better when the doctors said they had no chance. As for regrowing limbs I don't know, but even Jesus did refuse whole cities of being healed. At which point the people hated him.

7. God refuses many miracles to happen.

8. Pagan myths around the world contain similar themes. 

9. Pi actually does follow a pattern and is predictable. There are clues to the properties of nature in the old scriptures. The parables of Jesus describe principles in metaphors and it boosts science.

10. God does not actually want everyone to live. He gives freewill, but if you sin the wages are death. His warning in the Old Testament was if you don't follow my laws you will begin to see miscarriages. Many of these laws were about hygiene and what foods to eat.

11. Again, the last number. God will let people die. It's not all about prayer, which is a small portion of religion. More importantly is following the precepts.

12. I'm not sure about one religion suffering more than another. I think the better an individual obeys their religion the better off they are. As for helping children, I hope everyone is doing their best to help and give to charity.

13. Everything has to face death. God is not taking that away.

14. This varies upon example and would have to be specific. What one may think is a contradiction might have more explanation. Different authors to different books is one main reason.

15. I think it does.

16. It has been taken care of. 5,000 years later and it is in pretty good condition compared to other books. It was promised the whole world would know it in the old and new Testaments and that promise is actually a miracle performed.

17. Christ himself said his purpose was to divide the churches and people. To bring a sword to the world, not peace. Another common misconception. Many things are in the hands of the people not God.

18. Apparently he does, and I think that is what he expects. In the Old Testament he said from time to time he would completely leave and leave everything in our hands. He would expect Israel to properly take care of things while he was gone and returning at an unkown date. Christ repeats this messagein his parables about a man on a long journey, and the thief in the night unexpectedly returning.

 

Well, this explains less than I wanted to. Mainly I wanted to express that the God described in scripture is not the empty God told in every church. He created life and death, violence and peace and there has to be some kind of balance between them. He allowed freewill, and this lets some men be evil. He calls his name Jealous. If we are made in the image of God then he must have somewhat similar emotions to us. When men are being evil to others then that makes us jealous and that anger is actually a form of love. Things might not always go well with that and eventually even good parents might give up on a bad child for a while. I guess you might expect unconditional love, but if someone does bad enough you might not even punish them anymore. You might just get up and leave forever.

 

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1 hour ago, The_Phantom_Stranger said:

15. I think it does.

Care to name a couple?

1 hour ago, The_Phantom_Stranger said:

16. It has been taken care of. 5,000 years later and it is in pretty good condition compared to other books. It was promised the whole world would know it in the old and new Testaments and that promise is actually a miracle performed.

The story of Noah's Flood dates from about 2800 BC (4800 YBP).  That's the oldest non-eponomous story in the Bible.  Most of the Bible (Genesis through 2nd Kings) was written during the Babylonian Captivity (c. 560 BC). 

The story of the Baby-in-a-Boat originates about 1200 BC with Sargon, King of Babylon, which also happens to be the date of the oldest copy of "Moses."

How do you explain the survival of these stories when the Hebrew language itself, only reaches back to 930 BC?

It's those other books that gave us the Bible.

1 hour ago, The_Phantom_Stranger said:

7. Christ himself said his purpose was to divide the churches and people. To bring a sword to the world, not peace. Another common misconception. Many things are in the hands of the people not God.

18. Apparently he does, and I think that is what he expects. In the Old Testament he said from time to time he would completely leave and leave everything in our hands. He would expect Israel to properly take care of things while he was gone and returning at an unkown date. Christ repeats this messagein his parables about a man on a long journey, and the thief in the night unexpectedly returning.

Once again, I do not worship such a hateful and evil god.  Just which god are you worshipping?

If we follow a god such as the one you describe, we are headed for a repeat of the Dark Ages.

Doug

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4 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Care to name a couple?

 

There are countless moral truths in the Bible. Scientific truths are also numerous, such as the lunar calendar which is accurate for aeons to come and the identification of skin diseases in Leviticus which are still used today.

 

4 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

 

The story of Noah's Flood dates from about 2800 BC (4800 YBP).  That's the oldest non-eponomous story in the Bible.  Most of the Bible (Genesis through 2nd Kings) was written during the Babylonian Captivity (c. 560 BC). 

The story of the Baby-in-a-Boat originates about 1200 BC with Sargon, King of Babylon, which also happens to be the date of the oldest copy of "Moses."

How do you explain the survival of these stories when the Hebrew language itself, only reaches back to 930 BC?

Moses is argued to have either have happened in about 1450 B.C. or 1200 B.C. The book of Genesis was alledgedly written by Moses and nobody is sure how the knowledge is known. It has parallels with many other creation stories, but veers off with Abraham. The Hebrew scripture was persecuted by the Babylonian King in the 5th century B.C who outlawed it. A lot of books were lost around this time, but what we have was preserved. Much of it had to be recopied at this time. The oldest evidence of the Hebrew language is from about 1,000 B.C. but that does not mean that is where it began it is just the oldest archaelogical evidence for it.  The language has gone through changes.

4 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Once again, I do not worship such a hateful and evil god.  Just which god are you worshipping?

If we follow a god such as the one you describe, we are headed for a repeat of the Dark Ages.

Doug

That's your choice. Christianity has been around since the Dark Ages ended and we have not seen another one yet. You can be paranoid about it if you want to.

Edited by The_Phantom_Stranger
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On 12/8/2021 at 12:33 AM, Manwon Lender said:

 If you honestly believe this is not about religious beliefs and about how those beliefs are being forced upon a Nation you need to drink a gallon of Coffee to help you wake up!!

And what about the rights, and the life, being taken away from the unborn baby? You forgot to answer that one..

This isn't about religious beliefs per se, its simply about being pro-life, or not. Although I would hope that most, if not all spiritually minded folks were anti-abortion.

Unless you are trying to tell everybody that there is not one single atheist, or agnostic, who is against abortion, and is pro-life?

 

 

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11 hours ago, The_Phantom_Stranger said:

There are countless moral truths in the Bible. Scientific truths are also numerous, such as the lunar calendar which is accurate for aeons to come and the identification of skin diseases in Leviticus which are still used today.

 

Moses is argued to have either have happened in about 1450 B.C. or 1200 B.C. The book of Genesis was alledgedly written by Moses and nobody is sure how the knowledge is known. It has parallels with many other creation stories, but veers off with Abraham. The Hebrew scripture was persecuted by the Babylonian King in the 5th century B.C who outlawed it. A lot of books were lost around this time, but what we have was preserved. Much of it had to be recopied at this time. The oldest evidence of the Hebrew language is from about 1,000 B.C. but that does not mean that is where it began it is just the oldest archaelogical evidence for it.  The language has gone through changes.

That's your choice. Christianity has been around since the Dark Ages ended and we have not seen another one yet. You can be paranoid about it if you want to.

Post 50 is a list of things that we would expect to observe if god exists.  Only one of them is needed to create the hypothesis that there is a god.

The efficacy of prayer is a true-false question.  Either god exists or god doesn't exist.  There is no middle ground.  To date the null hypothesis (no god) has been confirmed in EVERY controlled test.

You can post your own answers to these questions, as I have posted some of mine, but the test, itself, is a test for god to take. 

About Moses:  there are at least four Moses prototypes.  As far back as Josephus, probably a lot farther, people have been trying to answer the question:  who was Moses?  Seeing as the name does not occur in Egyptian literature, if he existed he must have been known by another name.  What was that name?

The 1447 date corresponds with a Moses prototype named Djehuti.  His part of the story included killing an Egyptian and burying the body in the sand.  There is even a papyrus ordering him to Memphis to explain his part in the killing of one Ptah-Sokar.  Egypt did not have cavalry at this time; yet the biblical story clearly refers to it.

The story of the Sojourn fits very neatly into the Amarna Period.  An oriental named Yuya fills the part of Joseph very well.  There may have been a Moses-prototype among the royal family at the time, but the evidence I have seen seems to have been marshaled to make somebody's wish come true.  Read up on Seti I's efforts to purify Egypt of all unclean people (That included "Asiatics.").  Seti needed workers to fill Horemheb's order to build a new city and there were all these prisoners.  That's where the "slaves" part of the story came from.  The Israelites were recently enslaved, not life-long slaves.  The "slvae" leader, Osar-Seph, more like a foreman, staged a slave revolt.  For thirteen years they "despoiled the Egyptians."  Finally, Seti overcame his fear of the gods and sent in the army.

Another Moses prototype is the Pharoah Amenmeses (Note the name "Moses" in the throne name.)  Amenmeses was the general in charge of Thebes.  That's where Moses' "Ethiopian" wife got into the story.  Amenmeses lost his war with Seti II and the other princes and was probably disposed of in the sand, but it's possible he escaped through Wadi Hammamat to the Red Sea where he was ferried across to Sinai.  Twenty years later when Ramses III needed someone to supervise an expedition to Sinai, there was Amenmeses, as qualified an individual as one could find.

There are four times when the Exodus could have happened - and they all conflict with the Bible.

 

The oldest anything written in Hebrew is an agricultural callendar written about 930 BC.  There are some proto-Semitic languages, hybrids of Egyptian and other languages that were spoken in Sinai, but Hebrew, as a language did not exist before then.

Doug

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9 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

And what about the rights, and the life, being taken away from the unborn baby? You forgot to answer that one..

This isn't about religious beliefs per se, its simply about being pro-life, or not. Although I would hope that most, if not all spiritually minded folks were anti-abortion.

Unless you are trying to tell everybody that there is not one single atheist, or agnostic, who is against abortion, and is pro-life?

 

 

You have no idea what your talking about do you know who started the movement, enough said!

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14 hours ago, The_Phantom_Stranger said:

There are countless moral truths in the Bible. Scientific truths are also numerous, such as the lunar calendar which is accurate for aeons to come and the identification of skin diseases in Leviticus which are still used today.

Be specific.

The lunar calendar agrees with the Gregorian calendar well enough that it can predict the date of the New Moon over a time of about 3000 years.  If it were better than that, it would give us the exact date of the Exodus, but it's not quite that good.

The Jewish lunar calendar resets itself each month so that odd fractions are ignored.  These fractions accumulate over time, throwing off the Jewish calendar.  That is actually a problem with any calendar, except that some take more or less than 3000 years to accumulate a day's error.

Doug

 

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18 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

You have no idea what your talking about do you know who started the movement, enough said!

You mean Bill Gates' father who was one of the founders of Planned Parenthood? Yes, that's common knowledge..

But what has this to do with my question? 

Which was, how about the rights and the life of the unborn baby?

 

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On 12/11/2021 at 8:00 AM, Crazy Horse said:

Which was, how about the rights and the life of the unborn baby?

Does it say in the Bible a soul is implanted at conception or does it say life begins at first breath?

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56 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Does it say in the Bible a soul is implanted at conception or does it say life begins at first breath?

According to the Bible if a pregnant woman gets hit and the baby dies it will be repaid life for life. Exodus 21:22-25

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2 hours ago, The_Phantom_Stranger said:

According to the Bible if a pregnant woman gets hit and the baby dies it will be repaid life for life. Exodus 21:22-25

22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

That's ONLY an eye-for-an-eye, etc.  It's a plea for justice, not vengeance.

Doug

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On 12/12/2021 at 8:08 PM, Tatetopa said:

Does it say in the Bible a soul is implanted at conception or does it say life begins at first breath?

You believe in the Bible?

Personally, I've never read it..

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1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

You believe in the Bible?

Personally, I've never read it..

Hi Crazy Horse

Half the bible is about Jesus that you claim to believe in, how did you learn about him?

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13 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Crazy Horse

Half the bible is about Jesus that you claim to believe in, how did you learn about him?

Hi Jay.

I read the NT as a teenager, but I never read the OT, or the Bible as a whole.

I learnt about Christ through various books, teachers, the NT..

 

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2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Hi Jay.

I read the NT as a teenager, but I never read the OT, or the Bible as a whole.

I learnt about Christ through various books, teachers, the NT..

 

Hi Crazy Horse

Thanks for the answer, I am curious though as to what types of books you have read about Jesus as other than the bible which was compiled quite some time after the death of Jesus would be historically relevant to him. They would all rely on hearsay or second hand accounts based on the bible story so do question the validity of what Jesus was said to have said or done.

Edited by jmccr8
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6 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Thanks for the answer, I am curious though as to what types of books you have read about Jesus as other than the bible which was compiled quite some time after the death of Jesus would be historically relevant to him. They would all rely on hearsay or second hand accounts based on the bible story so do question the validity of what Jesus was said to have said or done.

The NT, excluding the gospels was probably written, at least partly, during the first century AD.  The earliest-known scrap of writing is by Philo of Alexandria and dates from 41 AD. Cicero mentions Christians about 64 AD; although he might be referring to Hare Krishna.  The books containing the most-accurate historical data are the letters.  The Gospels are all first century if you read "Christian" sources and second century if you don't.  I place them from about 131 AD for Mark and Matthew, about 40 AD for Luke (and Acts) and about 180 for John.  The earliest reference to the gospels in other writings is St. Ireneas' reference to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in his "Against Heresies" written about 183 AD.  He mentions a book of Matthew a little earlier, probably about 180 AD.  This could be the Matthew from the gospels.  So that means the earliest gospels were written about 100 years after the story they record and possibly as much as 150 years after.

There were other versions of the gospels written during this time.  These include a version by Justin the Martyr and another by Marcion.  One defense of Christianity written about 125 AD manages to tell all about Christianity without mentioning the gospels.

An interesting observation is that the Gospels are formatted as a Roman play-within-a-play.  That seems to nominate Cicero as their author.  He was a statesman, Senator, orator and studied eastern religions as a hobby.  He was also literate in Greek, as well as Latin.

Doug

 

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30 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Cicero mentions Christians about 64 AD;

Cicero was dead for more than a century in 64 CE. I think you're thinking of Tacitus who wrote about Nero finding scapegoats for the fire in Rome of 64 CE. Tacitus wrote about it 40-50 years later, into the second century.

Quote

although he might be referring to Hare Krishna.

Yes, it is a curiosity that nobody else mentions the lurid persecution for a long time. It could be that there was a group called "Chrestians" (= followers of Chrestus, a downmarket name or nickname) in Nero's time that Tacitus confused with the Roman Christians of his own time.

For equal time on the dating estimates, here's Peter Kirby's list of ancient Christian literature, some of it hypothetical (like the early Passion narrative and Q) and some of it about Christians, rather than by Christians, with mainstream estimated date ranges:

http://earlychristianwritings.com/

 

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1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Cicero was dead for more than a century in 64 CE. I think you're thinking of Tacitus who wrote about Nero finding scapegoats for the fire in Rome of 64 CE. Tacitus wrote about it 40-50 years later, into the second century.

Oops.

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21 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Crazy Horse

Thanks for the answer, I am curious though as to what types of books you have read about Jesus as other than the bible which was compiled quite some time after the death of Jesus would be historically relevant to him. They would all rely on hearsay or second hand accounts based on the bible story so do question the validity of what Jesus was said to have said or done.

Hi Jay.

Well, besides the "Gnostic Gospels", there have been many books/teachers who have questioned the phycological aspect of Christs teachings, the inner meanings if you will.

You might say that they put a whole new spin upon the teachings of Christ. A lot more positive and life affirming and empowering..

And it is these books and teachers that I am referring to.

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7 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Hi Jay.

Well, besides the "Gnostic Gospels", there have been many books/teachers who have questioned the phycological aspect of Christs teachings, the inner meanings if you will.

You might say that they put a whole new spin upon the teachings of Christ. A lot more positive and life affirming and empowering..

And it is these books and teachers that I am referring to.

Hi Crazy Horse

Thanks, but I was hoping that you would actually list the books for review.

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