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Karahan Tepe and Gobekli Tepe are just adorned bathing pools ?


Ove

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1 minute ago, Piney said:

Solar activity I'm thinking. The 4G on my tablet is fine. My 5G phone is crazy.

That's me atm...5g is has gone nuts.

Keeps bouncing between 4 and 5 and dropping signal in between.

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5 minutes ago, Open Mind OG said:

Just out of curiosity, are you a Mark Boslough fan?  I read this interesting summary of the path of the YDIH debate that has lots of information you might like to weigh in on.  (possibly worthy of a separate string if it hasn't been discussed already).

https://grahamhancock.com/youngm2/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3NM_vAHC-4u0WpzVddPxx9BbBw3P-ojMKOEznwknP5bN0yOumB8tMi-Lc_aem_AdO-HMM1gWv8khjbPU1WYait7SFJ_Ap-zUW3JqSyfrFqg9NyWAi14h-Iqp_YJ5f9QEtlylAQGv0bOFeMMoTYDWtO

I busted Jimmy Kennett and Scott Tankersley lying myself and I'm not a "fan" of anyone. But Mark is pretty spot on.

The only thing that keeps Jimmy afloat is tenure. He and Scott's credibility is both **** now. 

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8 hours ago, Open Mind OG said:

This guy Kennet is now co-founder of the Comet Research Group. Those people have published and defended some extremely dicey stuff - like altering photos in their papers and such.
Don't know if Kennet's name is on any of them, but they've proven themselves worthy of my skepticism.

Harte

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Piney said:

But Mark is pretty spot on.

From that link, here are some notes on him:

"chief enforcer for the impact mafia",

He and his cronies fancy themselves "the priests of scientism, disseminators of the word of science to the unwashed masses".

"Unfortunately, people like Mark Boslough don’t live in the real world, instead substituting reality for the models they have spent their career producing, like pathological liars who begin to believe their own lies are absolute truth."

"This abhorrent behaviour has been criticised by Powell (2022b), who resigned in protest from the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI) following Mark Boslough’s non-peer-reviewed attack on the CRG in their tabloid magazine, Skeptical Inquirer (Powell 2022c). According to Powell, Boslough’s ad-hominem laden smear piece violated almost every tenet of proper skepticism, and ultimately amounts to an ethics violation (Powell 2022b)."

"The capacity of a scientist to change their mind when presented with new evidence is of vital importance; ideologues like Mark Boslough have demonstrated they are incapable or unwilling to do so."

"Shortly after the publication of LeCompte et al. (2012), Mark Boslough made his first accusation of fraud against Malcolm LeCompte...according to Boslough, because one coauthor also appeared on the original Firestone et al. (2007) paper, to claim it as independent was fraudulent...Dr. Albert Goodyear’s role in the LeCompte paper was limited to consulting on the stratigraphic location of the Clovis layer at Topper...This was also his contribution to the Firestone et al. (2007) paper; he was not involved in laboratory analyses or data interpretation in either paper."

"Mark Boslough, Critic-In-Chief of the YDIH...persists in claiming that the preferred YDB impact scenario is impossible, while demonstrating a complete and utter misunderstanding of the claimed scenario that borders on willful denial of the evidence."

He's not playing well with others.

Edited by Open Mind OG
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On 5/8/2024 at 11:33 AM, Open Mind OG said:

I'm remaining open about 'what' caused the YD event, myself, so this statement is cool with me.    I do see how the proxies are certainly leading many to that conclusion, but from my perspective, it seems mostly supporting something that is associated with a high heat event.   There's a few things that could be the cause maybe of that.    Are you suggesting the YD period was a very calm gradual mild change with no major flooding or heat generating elements?   What are you picturing?

I'm picturing the geology and paleontology and archaeology of that time period.

To quote Wikipedia, The change was relatively sudden, took place over decades, and resulted in a decline of temperatures in Greenland by 4–10 °C (7.2–18 °F),[4] and advances of glaciers and drier conditions over much of the temperate Northern Hemisphere. 

There was an equally drastic drop at a about the point in the Pleistocene:

290px-Younger_Dryas_and_Air_Temperature_Changes.jpgle290px-Younger_Dryas_and_Air_Temperature_Changes.jpg

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas

There's a lot of material in that article, but if you scan through it you'll see that it's not a global event but rather there are a number of disjoints (the American period may have started more than a hundred years before the European period.  And the extinctions weren't exactly wholesale... mammoths lived on until about the time of Cleopatra, for example.

The page on Pleistocene extinctions does a decent job of mapping out the timelike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene_extinctions

Now... in order for it to be an air burst event, you'd have a single event (bolides aren't going to hit in a regular pattern, like ICBMs) and you would see a extinction of almost all life near the impact/air burst)... but not elsewhere.  You'd see plant life wiped out in that area, too, which would leave some evidence.

There's no sign of a "nuclear winter" from that time period, and without smacking into the Earth, an impactor isn't going to add as much dust into the atmosphere as a big volcano.  Even big eruptions generally don't have much of an impact (the exception would be supervolcanos, but we know that none of those were active during the Younger Dryas) The ejecta of Mount Tambora (the largest recorded volcanic explosion) did not cause a big global drop in temperatures... or indeed cause a climate shift.

So, yes, I'm considering the Dryas to be more like today's climate change (in that it takes place over decades) rather than a catastrophic event (the Chicxulub bolide)

 

 

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regarding my idea about these enclosures being hypothetically pens for early animal husbandry, as outlined in my first post:

I've been pointed to an interesting article that supports this way of thinking. Here is an exerpt from that article by Orhan Ayaz of Haran University.  I'll link below:

It is possible to understand from the temporary hillside settlements close-by that an important ratio of these animals in these entrapment areas were held in these entrapment areas for a long time.  Another important datum that will change our perspective on this cultural region is provided by the archaeozoological studies. Former approaches regarding the archaeofaunal remains received from Göbekli Tepe (Peters et al., 2020: 4612; Peters and Schmidt, 2004) are facing serious challenges. Due to the entrapment area economy, the body part representation at the site is no longer indicative of the animals there could only be wild animals. This is because the animals kept in the out-site entrapment areas were prepared in the close-by hillside settlements, and their meat were then carried to the settlement. And this points out to the presence of animals kept in the entrapment areas rather than the presence of persistence hunted animals in their natural environment (Çelik and Ayaz, 2022).

Article link:  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/371178721_An_Alternative_View_on_Animal_Symbolism_in_The_Gobekli_Tepe_Neolithic_Cultural_Region_in_the_Light_of_New_Data_Gobekli_Tepe_Sayburc

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1 hour ago, Open Mind OG said:

regarding my idea about these enclosures being hypothetically pens for early animal husbandry, as outlined in my first post:

I've been pointed to an interesting article that supports this way of thinking. Here is an exerpt from that article by Orhan Ayaz of Haran University.  I'll link below:

It is possible to understand from the temporary hillside settlements close-by that an important ratio of these animals in these entrapment areas were held in these entrapment areas for a long time.  Another important datum that will change our perspective on this cultural region is provided by the archaeozoological studies. Former approaches regarding the archaeofaunal remains received from Göbekli Tepe (Peters et al., 2020: 4612; Peters and Schmidt, 2004) are facing serious challenges. Due to the entrapment area economy, the body part representation at the site is no longer indicative of the animals there could only be wild animals. This is because the animals kept in the out-site entrapment areas were prepared in the close-by hillside settlements, and their meat were then carried to the settlement. And this points out to the presence of animals kept in the entrapment areas rather than the presence of persistence hunted animals in their natural environment (Çelik and Ayaz, 2022).

 

Article link:  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/371178721_An_Alternative_View_on_Animal_Symbolism_in_The_Gobekli_Tepe_Neolithic_Cultural_Region_in_the_Light_of_New_Data_Gobekli_Tepe_Sayburc

The pens the author is talking about were off-site. He only mentions the circular structures as places where animal vs. animal fights may have taken place.
It is very possible to pen and hold wild animals. That's how animal husbandry started all over the world.
I don't see what he says as particularly unlikely, I'd have to look into animal husbandry in the region. But it was only a couple of centuries after Gobekli Tepe that we see actual domesticated plant agriculture, so I don't see why animal husbandry couldn't have started at Gobekli Tepe at some point.

Harte

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4 hours ago, Harte said:

I'd have to look into animal husbandry in the region.

Personally, I'm curious if the lower layers might indicate a layer of animal waste.   I'd expect even if caretakers mucked out the enclosure, (hypothetically for this idea..), if there'd be some kind of proxie evidence remains that demonstrate an identifiable layer of animal ****. 

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I'd consider maybe goats. Cattle is almost out of the question since we know they hunted those for meat.
https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/tag/animals/

Bones of gazelles and birds have been found in the refuse. Those wouldn't be ideal for keeping in pens. Your PDF may go a little further into that, I only read about the first half of it. Somewhere in there he should say which animals he's talking about.

Harte

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3 hours ago, Open Mind OG said:

Personally, I'm curious if the lower layers might indicate a layer of animal waste.   I'd expect even if caretakers mucked out the enclosure, (hypothetically for this idea..), if there'd be some kind of proxie evidence remains that demonstrate an identifiable layer of animal ****. 

A good "sift" would provide evidence of feces, but leaving it in a pen is asking for hoof rot and other diseases.

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