U.S. Forces Wound Freed Italian Hostage in Iraq

[Whom_God_Loves]

I see yer a Mod now Lottie congrats

516005[/snapback]

Umm no I am not a mod just a debates organiser.

There have been alot more American Hostages than anyone else and the ones that do make it out alive, you don't hear them complaining too much, they're happy to be alive.

Yeah and they have not been fired at by allies. You have not answered my question.

516007[/snapback]

What you want me to say it's a war zone!, I hear about americans dying over there left and right, that kinda stuff happens, everyone that goes over there knows what the risks and rewards are, she knew what she was gettin into so therefore she should brush the dirt off her shoulder and be happy to make it out alive. If it was Americans in the situation you describe, then I understand the circumstances and conditions there are in.

[Guest Lottie]

Italy agent death row intensifies

Italy's foreign minister has demanded the US "identify and punish" those responsible for the death of an Italian intelligence agent in Iraq.

Gianfranco Fini said Rome and Washington had "different" versions of what happened to Nicola Calipari.

Calipari died under US fire as he escorted a released hostage, reporter Giuliana Sgrena, to freedom.

The US says shots were fired because the vehicle was speeding and did not heed troops' warnings for it to stop.

But Mr Fini said Calipari had made "all the necessary contacts" with the US authorities before making the journey.

The car was travelling at no more than 40 km per hour, he added.

Calipari has become a national hero in Italy, and thousands attended his funeral on Monday.

'Truth and justice'

The incident has strengthened Italian opposition to the continuing military presence in Iraq.

Six in 10 Italians now think the Iraq war was wrong.

Mr Fini rejected Ms Sgrena's suggestion that the car was deliberately targeted as "groundless".

"We ask for truth and justice," he said. "We hope that within the next few hours this affirmed wish for loyal co-operation will yield its first major concrete result."

"We hope that this is not an opportunity to whip up political campaigns and to sow anti-American sentiment in public opinion, which certainly have no reason to exist."

source

[Guest Lottie]

MEMO BLAMES ITALIANS

The US-led multinational force in Iraq has ordered a further investigation into the shooting involving an Italian hostage and intelligence officer.

Italy's top intelligence officer in Iraq Nicola Calipari was killed in the incident.

He was with Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena who was being driven to the airport in Baghdad after being released by her captors when US troops opened fire.

The multinational force has said a team led by US Brig Gen Peter Vangjel will carry out an investigation.

His initial inquiry is expected to take between three and four weeks.

A force spokesman said: "The command is working closely with the US Embassy and Italian officials have been invited to participate."

A Pentagon memo claims Italian security forces failed to make arrangements for the safe passage of the hostage.

The US military claims its forces gave ample warning to the driver of Sgrena's car, which they said was approaching at speed when they opened fire.

Sgrena has said they were not travelling fast and claims she was deliberately targeted for murder because the United States opposed negotiations with her kidnappers.

The internal Pentagon information memo was obtained by The Washington Times.

source

[Talon]

Rift over Italian death deepens

Italy's foreign minister has demanded the US "identify and punish" those responsible for the death of an Italian intelligence agent in Iraq.

Gianfranco Fini said the US and Italy had different versions of what happened to Nicola Calipari, who died under US fire while escorting a freed hostage.

The US says shots were fired because the vehicle was speeding and did not heed troops' warnings for it to stop.

But Mr Fini said the car was travelling at no more than 40km per hour.

Calipari had also made "all the necessary contacts" with US and Italian officials about the hostage's release and the journey to the airport, he added.

The incident has intensified the already strong Italian opposition to the country's military presence in Iraq and put intense pressure on Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government to find answers.

The BBC's Tamsin Smith in Rome says Mr Fini's comments, which have pre-empted an investigation into the incident, were very much for domestic consumption.

Political observers in Rome say there is a serious problem of jurisdiction in any attempt to bring criminal proceedings, as the shooting took place in an area under US military control in a third country.

Calipari has become a national hero in Italy, and thousands came out onto the streets on Monday to applaud the funeral cortege.

'Truth and justice'

Mr Fini said the vehicle carrying the released hostage and agents was well-lit to facilitate checks.

However, it stopped after a powerful light was shone on it from the roadside and the shooting began immediately, without warning, he said.

A volley of shots from automatic weapons followed, lasting 10-15 seconds, the foreign minister added.

The occupants of the vehicle were only identified by a second agent who was pulled from the car alive, he said.

Mr Fini did, however, reject the allegation made by freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena that the car was deliberately targeted as "groundless".

"We ask for truth and justice," he said. "We hope that within the next few hours this affirmed wish for loyal co-operation will yield its first major concrete result."

"We hope that this is not an opportunity to whip up political campaigns and to sow anti-American sentiment in public opinion, which certainly have no reason to exist."

Tuesday's Washington Times newspaper quoted a Pentagon memo as saying the Italian security forces appeared to have made no prior arrangement for Ms Sgrena's transfer to the airport.

It added that US troops are trained to fire on erratic speeding vehicles, a description which corresponds to the US version of events.

"This is war," the memo was quoted as saying. "About 500 American service members have been killed by hostile fire while operating on Iraqi streets and highways."

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ope/4328551.stm

[dmgspycat]

If they meant to kill her she'd be dead, She entered a War Zone there's a 50% chance something could happen, this is a stupid story.

515979[/snapback]

Not necessarrily true...anyway, there are good points being made on this subject. The journalists life is important and the only thing stupid is the lack of common sense in our military leadership at the present time. Another right wing supporter from MI? Let me guess...Oscoda?

[Stellar]

I do not refer to "rules of engagement". You should better refer to them as "rules of slaughter".

Funny... because Rules of Engagement are in place to protect civilians... If the soldiers followed the appropriate RoEs, its not their fault at all.

Actually, I prefer to be an armchair general. I don't have the blood of innocents on my hands.

You also dont have any idea of what its like over there, nor any regulations or procedure thats followed.

[Gmac1000]

Its funny how one was a secret agent and the other a reporter, fine mix for a couple of people to have to find out some important info that the US military might not want leaked, Since when do Italians look like Iraqi's anyway?

[pallidin]

Oh for God's sake!

This entire event was a massive failure of both communication and protocol.

1) What idiot, be it Italian or American, dropped the ball in not informing(and VERIFYING) to others that a recovered-hostage vehicle would SOON be approaching a SECURE/AUTHORIZED TO LETHALLY ENGAGE checkpoint?

Hello????? That moron(or morons) should be court-martialed at the very least.

2) The driver, if indeed speeding, had no cause to do so. Was the vehicle being persued by adversaries? NO!!! Could a speeding vehicle towards a secure checkpoint be reasonably interpreted as a potential threat? YES!!!!

3) Protocols for secure checkpoints are ridiculously simple: You slow down to a virtual crawl when it site of the checkpoint. You then remand yourself's and your vehicle to the full control, inspection and interrogation of the checkpoint officers under the watchful eyes of armed, ready-to-fire MP's(or others designated to protect the site)

So something, obviously, went wrong. And in my humble opinion, heads should roll on this, be it the Americans or the Italians or both.

[dmgspycat]

It's not like I intend to take the opposite side because I'm anti-American...it is because there is a different group in power now and I do not trust them. I've seen thier "style" in the 1980's and it was much of the same. I don't fault our men and women ...they are just doing what they are told and have to do by law. The leadership is flawed...and I am all for exposing this American crime syndicate no matter who the journalist works for and no matter what her political philosophy is. I do want to hear this womans story because I am sick of the censorship.

[Stellar]

Its funny how one was a secret agent and the other a reporter, fine mix for a couple of people to have to find out some important info that the US military might not want leaked, Since when do Italians look like Iraqi's anyway?

Ill put someone into a car, speeding towards you from far away, and you tell me what the person looks like.

What idiot, be it Italian or American, dropped the ball in not informing(and VERIFYING) to others that a recovered-hostage vehicle would SOON be approaching a SECURE/AUTHORIZED TO LETHALLY ENGAGE checkpoint?

Hello????? That moron(or morons) should be court-martialed at the very least

That kind of thing seems like quite an easy decision to make from your home there... but considering that actually telling the troops that would make them hesitate and could end up in their deaths because of their hesitation, and considering that if the vehicles follow checkpoint precedure they wouldnt be shot at... not telling the soldiers might have been a better idea that telling them... in theory at least.

[pallidin]

That kind of thing seems like quite an easy decision to make from your home there... but considering that actually telling the troops that would make them hesitate and could end up in their deaths because of their hesitation, and considering that if the vehicles follow checkpoint precedure they wouldnt be shot at... not telling the soldiers might have been a better idea that telling them... in theory at least.

516939[/snapback]

I understand your rationale, and certainly all troops should remain vigilant regardless of circumstance.

Does 'advance' notice of a "friendly" vehicle/convoy potentially lessen the "vigilance"? Yes, of course it does: The quarding MP's feel more relaxed, and thus more subject to a surprise attack.

However, hostage retrieval and transport is often 'outside' the normalities of war-zone traffic. There is a humanly-inherent desire to "rush" them into safety.

Because of this potential, and often seen, reaction, it is especially important that transport dynamics are clearly communicated to all ensuing pathway authorities.

[dmgspycat]

Here is another article...

********************************************************************

Published: Mar 5, 2005

Author: Associated Press

Post Date: 2005-03-05 11:47:27 by Brian S

Published: March 05, 2005 10:00 AM ET

ROME: Draped in a blanket and apparently hooked up to an intravenous drip, former hostage Giuliana Sgrena was carried off a plane upon returning from Iraq on Saturday, hours after American troops fired on the car taking her to Baghdad's airport, wounding her and killing the Italian intelligence officer protecting her.

President Bush promised a full investigation into the shooting.

Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi greeted Sgrena after she was carried off her plane at Rome's Ciampino Airport following her release from weeks of captivity. Surrounded by relatives and military police, Sgrena, a 56-year-old journalist with the newspaper Il Manifesto, was put into an ambulance bound for a military clinic for an operation on her collarbone.

A blanket was wrapped around her shoulders, and she appeared to be hooked up to an intravenous drip.

Her brother, Ivan Sgrena, told reporters she was very happy to be back in Italy but was "very sorry and sad" about the death of intelligence officer Nicola Calipari, who Berlusconi said was killed when he threw himself over Sgrena to protect her from U.S. fire.

From the hospital, Giuliana Sgrena told Rai News 24 by telephone that "we thought the danger was over after my rescue."

"And instead, suddenly there was this shooting. We were hit by a spray of fire," she told the television network. "I was talking to Nicola ... when he leaned over me, probably to defend me, and then he slumped over. That was a truly terrible thing."

Pier Scolari, the journalist's boyfriend, said she told him: "The most difficult moment was when I saw the person who had saved me die in my arms," according to the ANSA news agency.

[scolari told Sky Italia TV: "I have said so many times, war is madness. Probably it was scared boys who fired, it wasn't their fault, it was the fault of those that sent them there." Scolari also said the shootout took place 700 meters from the airport, after they had already passed other road blocks. At a press conference he said: "Giuliana and the other people who were there told me that the American attack was completely unjustified. They had alerted the whole chain of command, the Italian troops were awaiting them at the airport. And yet, they fired 300, 400 rounds. Why?"]

Gabriele Polo, her editor, said Berlusconi told him: "It was a terrible night, we will remember it for all our lives."

Giuliana Sgrena told her newspaper colleagues, who met her plane, that her captors "never treated me badly," ANSA reported. "She's been through a trial, but she's alive. Finally, we've gotten to see her," said her father, Franco.

She was abducted Feb. 4 by gunmen who blocked her car outside Baghdad University. Last month, she was shown in a video pleading for her life and demanding that all foreign troops including Italian forces leave Iraq.

Friday's shooting occurred shortly after Giuliana Sgrena was released from a Baghdad hospital.

The U.S. military said the car she was riding in after her release was speeding as it approached a coalition checkpoint in western Baghdad on its way to the airport. Soldiers shot into the engine block after trying to warn the driver to stop by "hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and firing warning shots," the military said.

U.S. troops took Sgrena to an American military hospital in Iraq, where shrapnel was removed from her left shoulder. The shrapnel removed from Sgrena's shoulder may have been a fragment of the fire that killed Calipari, he said.

Berlusconi has kept 3,000 troops in Iraq, and the shooting was likely to set off new protests in Italy, where tens of thousands have regularly demonstrated against the Iraq war. Sgrena's newspaper vigorously opposed the conflict.

News of the shooting drew immediate criticism Friday from Berlusconi's political foes, who were eager to attack the government for its staunch support of the war.

"Another victim of an absurd war," Alfonso Pecoraro Scanio, leader of the Green Party, told the Apcom news agency.

Berlusconi summoned the U.S. ambassador to Rome, Mel Sembler, who met with the premier for about an hour.

"The United States will continue to provide all necessary assistance," Sembler said in a statement, expressing condolences to Calipari's family and wishing the wounded a quick recovery. "And we are working with our Italian allies as we fully investigate the circumstances of this tragedy."

[The Committee to Protect Journalists urged the military to vigorously investigate all questions regarding the shooting. "We are relieved that Giuliana Sgrena has been freed, but are deeply concerned that the car taking her to safety came under military fire," CPJ Executive Director Ann Cooper said. "Military officials must conduct a thorough investigation of the circumstances that caused this shooting, which turned a very positive development into a tragedy."]

Bush called Berlusconi and expressed his regret in a five-minute conversation, Bush spokesman Scott McClellan said Friday night. Bush then assured Berlusconi the incident would be "fully investigated," he said.

********************************************************************

[__Kratos__]

I think there should also be someone looking into Italy's way of getting her out... like that ransom that *might* be true. 1 million dollars to attack our troops for the life of one human is NOT welcome.

[warden]

I read this morning that British soldiers standing at check points did not even have bullits for their guns because they had not done certain training yet ...so what the hell were they doing there in the first place

The italian woman should have took their car through a british check point ,they would have talked her to death

[Vallheru]

I do not refer to "rules of engagement". You should better refer to them as "rules of slaughter".

Funny... because Rules of Engagement are in place to protect civilians... If the soldiers followed the appropriate RoEs, its not their fault at all.

Actually, I prefer to be an armchair general. I don't have the blood of innocents on my hands.

You also dont have any idea of what its like over there, nor any regulations or procedure thats followed.

516786[/snapback]

I am sure that if your mom or sister or kid was killed you'd say the same. And I'm certain you have been there so you know what's going on.

I am certain if one member of your family died because RoEs (what a ridiculous term...) didn't work you would justify it.... Better find a victim's relative a talk to them about the "heroic" and "patriotic" freedom (oil) fighters. Anyhow, I am certain this topic is about you explaining us what are the "procedures" of killing each other....ridiculous.

It is all a funny freak show....you see, the Italians woke up cause they lost an agent....didn't see them (their government) complain when thousands and thousands of "freed" Iraqis are killed daily. It's a farse.

Really, I shouldn't replied or commented on the topic....

[bathory]

It's a farse.

you are a farce, where are these thousands and thousands being killed daily?

[wunarmdscissor]

Because the soldiers are risking their lives. Because they don't have a political agenda.

But I have a different question. Why was she released at all? Why wasn't she beheaded like so many others? I wonder.

As for me I will take a United States Soldiers word over a Commie Sympathizer any and every day of the week.  They are all heros...wtf is she?

And there is all is in that statement.

People wonder why americans get bad press lol.

The poor woman who has just been held captive , freed then shot by her allies is complaining and the american press find a way of villifying HER and not only that convince the american public that the she could nnever be telling the truth , because shes a commie sympathiser and that before ANY investigations are held the American soldiers (who btw never do anything wrong ahem abu gra...) are completley innocent.

IN FACT not only that they seem to have convinced some of the americans on the forum that she deserved to be killed because american hostage s have been killed previously.

[Vallheru]

It's a farse.

you are a farce, where are these thousands and thousands being killed daily?

517604[/snapback]

Whatever.....you know better, I'm sure....

[Seraphina]

Wun - I agree....some of the things our american friends are saying about this woman are truly disgusting...

[dementrix]

Incredible how one-sided most comments are, backing the American occupation forces. Because they are Americans, they must be right. There are witnesses to the fact that the driver was not speeding, was in fact going quite slow for that situation.

What I don't understand is how the American ambassador had the gall to attend the state funeral for this hero.

[bathory]

Whatever.....you know better, I'm sure....

of course i do, otherwise you would have a comeback of substance beyond simply blowing it off.

[warden]

Whatever.....you know better, I'm sure....

of course i do, otherwise you would have a comeback of substance beyond simply blowing it off.

517677[/snapback]

Bathory blowing what of? lol

[Vallheru]

Whatever.....you know better, I'm sure....

of course i do, otherwise you would have a comeback of substance beyond simply blowing it off.

517677[/snapback]

Your inslults are substantially funny, but a bit boring. Try writting something more interesting, or go to a chat to trade insults with your equals. Better yet, try reading a book....you know, paper with little black marks on it....like a newspaper...more or less...which is also a good idea...and probably you can easily open it as well...

[nindracula]

Ok. So an Italian hostage was injured and a bodyguard killed when their car failed to stop at a coalition checkpoint in Iraq. It is a horrible mistake and tragedy, but there are two things you have to keep in mind.

1.) Italy did not warn us of this operation

2.) It turns out Italy PAID THE TERRORISTS millions of dollars for her release! That's probably the reason for #1.

(here is the site I get the info from: http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050307-120131-5769r.htm)

Italy's government should be ashamed. You know what millions of dollars in terrorists' hands go toward? KILLING INNOCENTS!!! Italy basically, through this action, not only validated the terrorists' hostage taking strategy, but traded one Italian life for what will probably be many innocent Iraqi and US soldiers' lives due to the money they gave. Thanks a ****ing lot Italy.

And thanks alot to the media for making a huge story about one mistake and ignoring the many good news stories in Iraq that happen every day. Oh, and while I'm at it, thanks also to the actual hostage for alleging that troops PURPOSEFULLY fired upon her. Way to take advantage of all the press you're getting to promote our noble intensions in the middle east.

Of course, if somehow she really WAS purposefully fired upon, that would be horrible, and we would punish those responsible just as in the prison abuse cases. But I have yet to see any proof.

[bathory]

Your inslults are substantially funny, but a bit boring. Try writting something more interesting, or go to a chat to trade insults with your equals. Better yet, try reading a book....you know, paper with little black marks on it....like a newspaper...more or less...which is also a good idea...and probably you can easily open it as well...

You said, thousands and thousands were being killed each day, i asked for evidence of such things, you say

"Whatever.....you know better, I'm sure...."

as it stands i do know better, because i know for a fact, thousands upon thousands aren't being killed each day, this is an insane exageration to say the least.

Really, I shouldn't replied or commented on the topic....

at least you are right about one thing..

Bathory blowing what of? lol

keep your mind out of the gutter