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TooFarGone

U.S. Forces Wound Freed Italian Hostage in Iraq

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Vallheru
Your inslults are substantially funny, but a bit boring. Try writting something more interesting, or go to a chat to trade insults with your equals. Better yet, try reading a book....you know, paper with little black marks on it....like a newspaper...more or less...which is also a good idea...and probably you can easily open it as well...

You said, thousands and thousands were being killed each day, i asked for evidence of such things, you say

"Whatever.....you know better, I'm sure...."

as it stands i do know better, because i know for a fact, thousands upon thousands aren't being killed each day, this is an insane exageration to say the least.

Really, I shouldn't replied or commented on the topic....

at least you are right about one thing..

Bathory blowing what of? lol

keep your mind out of the gutter laugh.gif

517719[/snapback]

Enough, proud red-neck.

Me, little Indian, surrender.

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bathory
Enough, proud red-neck.

Me, little Indian, surrender.

is a person of pakistani origin able to be a redneck? does that work?

I find it amusing that you resort to insults when i point out a flaw in your arguement. Grats.*

*disclaimer*

Bathory acknowledges his prior use of insulting language, however Bathory would like to make it clear that he has never done so under the circumstances of losing an arguement, being gracious in defeat is always a sign of good character!

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Vallheru
Enough, proud red-neck.

Me, little Indian, surrender.

is a person of pakistani origin able to be a redneck? does that work?

I find it amusing that you resort to insults when i point out a flaw in your arguement. Grats.*

*disclaimer*

Bathory acknowledges his prior use of insulting language, however Bathory would like to make it clear that he has never done so under the circumstances of losing an arguement, being gracious in defeat is always a sign of good character!

517738[/snapback]

Ok, I'll be very clear then.

Thousands and thousands die, are dying and will die at a daily rate.

Redneck is an internationally used term (american origin) for people who use your kind of tone, irrespective of nationality.

That would be all.

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Seraphina

I must admit, I always thought that a redneck was America's answer to the common or garden ned huh.gif A person who is rude, poorly educated, and more often than not unemployed huh.gif

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Subtemperate

The death count for iraqi citizens sits at a total of 16,231 with some unnaccounted for the total could be a maximum 18,509....

Now unless the war has only been going 16-18 days....its quite a lot less then a thousand a day....

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Vallheru
The death count for iraqi citizens sits at a total of 16,231 with some unnaccounted for the total could be a maximum 18,509....

Now unless the war has only been going 16-18 days....its quite a lot less then a thousand a day....

517783[/snapback]

What a pity....maybe I should send a memo to Donald (Rumsfeld) and maybe he can amend that....probably he has the same idea anyway....

Seriously though, your numbers seem pretty low to me. But even if 100% accurate, they are extremely high. Have you thought what were those 19.000 dead? soldiers? saddam followers? No. They were civilians. If not all, the vast majority of them.

Have you thought of 19.000 dead Australians in a year's time? In Australian soil?

I didin't imply 1000 people per day died (it would be wwIII...). Was just trying to explain the awfulness and futility of the whole thing. All I got was either uneeded insults or explanations of RoEs and other military (and stupid) abbreviations.

And the worst is that when someone says something like that, he is either democratic, liberal, left wing, communist and other stupid labels that people give to people.

Well, I am not any of those things. I don't care about any of those movements/fractions/parties. I do not have a particular problem with anyone (definately not with you Sub) or any nation.

I just find the whole thing a murdering farse, apart from being un-ethical and illegal.

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Stellar
I am sure that if your mom or sister or kid was killed you'd say the same.

Im sure that I'd say the same thing I'm saying now.

I am certain if one member of your family died because RoEs (what a ridiculous term...) didn't work you would justify it....

The RoEs DID work. The RoEs are meant to filter out civilians from threats. A civilian is to obey the orders of the soldiers. The soldiers have many stages in their RoEs... the last being "neutralise the threat". Something is determined to be a possible threat if it has not obeyed the orders of the soldiers after many warnings. Its not the RoEs that were at fault... if the soldiers followed them, it was the driver who was at fault.

Better find a victim's relative a talk to them about the "heroic" and "patriotic" freedom (oil) fighters.

Yes... the soldiers are there because they themselves want oil. rolleyes.gif

What a rediculous statement.

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Stellar
Seriously though, your numbers seem pretty low to me. But even if 100% accurate, they are extremely high. Have you thought what were those 19.000 dead? soldiers? saddam followers? No. They were civilians. If not all, the vast majority of them.

Still extremely high? How about the fact that the death rate in Iraq has decreased since the war started. That means, even with the war, people are dying less now than before.

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bathory
Redneck is an internationally used term (american origin) for people who use your kind of tone, irrespective of nationality.

when i think redneck, i think white guy, moustache, truckers cap, scruffy jeans, flannel tshirt and says hooooeeee allot.

red·neck (rĕd'nĕk') pronunciation

n. Offensive Slang.

1. Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class, especially in the southern United States.

2. A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.

as you can see, i'm hardly a redneck.

Seriously though, your numbers seem pretty low to me. But even if 100% accurate, they are extremely high. Have you thought what were those 19.000 dead? soldiers? saddam followers? No. They were civilians. If not all, the vast majority of them.

Iraq body count includes insurgents, as well as civilians killed by both american and insurgency fire.

Have you thought of 19.000 dead Australians in a year's time? In Australian soil?

i dunno, we have john howard, and as much as the labor govenment whine about him, he hasn't been directly responsible for the deaths of over 250, 000 australians, nor is he the leader of an oppressive dictatorial regime. Context is a wonderful thing.

And the worst is that when someone says something like that, he is either democratic, liberal, left wing, communist and other stupid labels that people give to people.

in the context of the arguement it made sense, talon took exception to me mentioning it was a communist paper in response to dmgspycats claims of it being some kind of paper of truth. I was merely trying to point out that they have an anti-american/anti-bush agenda and that this is going to lead to bias (which is inevitable) and that to trust it as much as he would is silly. Would you trust Foxnews completely?

I just find the whole thing a murdering farse, apart from being un-ethical and illegal.

and what did you find Saddam to be? an all round nice guy? you have to face some realities in this world. To make a good omlet, you are unfortunately going to have to break some eggs:)

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Seraphina
The RoEs DID work. The RoEs are meant to filter out civilians from threats. A civilian is to obey the orders of the soldiers. The soldiers have many stages in their RoEs... the last being "neutralise the threat". Something is determined to be a possible threat if it has not obeyed the orders of the soldiers after many warnings. Its not the RoEs that were at fault... if the soldiers followed them, it was the driver who was at fault.

Would an experienced intelligence agent, who had worked in a combat zone, and had already overseen the safe release of hostages, not be fully aware of the rules of engagement, and know how to act when confronted with soldiers? huh.gif

I maintain that this is far too early to draw conclusions...not until an inquiry has been completed...but I simply find it very hard to believe that, if the soldiers gave all the warning they claim to have given, that the driver would not have been ordered to stop. More likely the troops saw a speeding car, paniced, and opened fire on the spot.

Again, I'm not saying that's what happened...but the story simply doesn't seem to add up as is.

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Stellar
Would an experienced intelligence agent, who had worked in a combat zone, and had already overseen the safe release of hostages, not be fully aware of the rules of engagement, and know how to act when confronted with soldier?

Would he?

Would a soldier, knowing full well the reprocussions of failing to obey ROEs, disobey them?

I was actually simply commenting on the RoEs... if the soldiers followed the RoEs, its not their fault, its someone elses. If, however, the soldiers didnt follow the RoEs, it can be either partly their fault, or completely their fault, depending on the other events that happened. IIRC, there were 3 or 4 bullet holes in the car... 2 I think seemed to be near the engine, and one went through the window into the drivers temple. It seems that the soldiers were following RoEs trying to take out the engine, but at that distance, a slight elevation of the rifle would account for the 1 bullet missing the engine area and hitting the driver.

I maintain that this is far too early to draw conclusions...not until an inquiry has been completed...but I simply find it very hard to believe that, if the soldiers gave all the warning they claim to have given, that the driver would not have been ordered to stop. More likely the troops saw a speeding car, paniced, and opened fire on the spot.

Again... In the event such as that, they have the right to skip certain steps.

Say you're guarding a train. If someone approaches you, you say "Halt!". If he keeps comming, you raise your rifle, and say "Halt!"... if he keeps on comming, you load it and take a shot into the air... if he still keeps comming, you put him down. Had that person approached you with a gun, you'd usually be authorised to skip the first 3 steps and jump to the "load the gun, take a shot in the air, then put him down if he still keeps comming" step. The safeguards are there in order to protect from mistakes such as the killing of an innocent civilian, but they're alsot here to protect the soldiers.

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Seraphina
Say you're guarding a train. If someone approaches you, you say "Halt!". If he keeps comming, you raise your rifle, and say "Halt!"... if he keeps on comming, you load it and take a shot into the air... if he still keeps comming, you put him down. Had that person approached you with a gun, you'd usually be authorised to skip the first 3 steps and jump to the "load the gun, take a shot in the air, then put him down if he still keeps comming" step. The safeguards are there in order to protect from mistakes such as the killing of an innocent civilian, but they're alsot here to protect the soldiers.

So you're saying that the warnings claimed...shooting in the air...flashing lights and so forth, did take place...but the intelligence officer simply...missed them? huh.gif

mleh, didn't mean to quote the whole thing *shortens*

Edited by Seraphina

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Stellar

So you're saying that the warnings claimed...shooting in the air...flashing lights and so forth, did take place...but the intelligence officer simply...missed them?

No, I am not saying that.

I am saying that if the soldiers followed RoEs, it wasnt their fault at all.

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Seraphina

Well, that I shall certainly agree with. If the driver failed to respond to flashing warning lights, warning shots, hand signals to stop, when certainly, they had no recourse BUT to disable to vehicle.

However, did they actually follow these rules of engagement?

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Vallheru
Redneck is an internationally used term (american origin) for people who use your kind of tone, irrespective of nationality.

when i think redneck, i think white guy, moustache, truckers cap, scruffy jeans, flannel tshirt and says hooooeeee allot.

red·neck (rĕd'nĕk') pronunciation

n. Offensive Slang.

1. Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class, especially in the southern United States.

2. A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.

as you can see, i'm hardly a redneck.

Seriously though, your numbers seem pretty low to me. But even if 100% accurate, they are extremely high. Have you thought what were those 19.000 dead? soldiers? saddam followers? No. They were civilians. If not all, the vast majority of them.

Iraq body count includes insurgents, as well as civilians killed by both american and insurgency fire.

Have you thought of 19.000 dead Australians in a year's time? In Australian soil?

i dunno, we have john howard, and as much as the labor govenment whine about him, he hasn't been directly responsible for the deaths of over 250, 000 australians, nor is he the leader of an oppressive dictatorial regime. Context is a wonderful thing.

And the worst is that when someone says something like that, he is either democratic, liberal, left wing, communist and other stupid labels that people give to people.

in the context of the arguement it made sense, talon took exception to me mentioning it was a communist paper in response to dmgspycats claims of it being some kind of paper of truth. I was merely trying to point out that they have an anti-american/anti-bush agenda and that this is going to lead to bias (which is inevitable) and that to trust it as much as he would is silly. Would you trust Foxnews completely?

I just find the whole thing a murdering farse, apart from being un-ethical and illegal.

and what did you find Saddam to be? an all round nice guy? you have to face some realities in this world. To make a good omlet, you are unfortunately going to have to break some eggs:)

517917[/snapback]

Your arguements are logical I have to say.

But I believe you see the tree and miss the forrest.

Let me explain why:

1. Do we need a "supervisor" to invade us whenever there is "dictatorship" or "regime" or whatever? Who has this right? And under what terms?

2. There has been a certain "preference" in the countries invaded in order to "restore" "democracy". The country with the worst conditions in civil rights/discriminations, executions etc. is China. Then it is probably Iran. North Korea. Why not invade these countries? Do I need to answer? One has to be naive not to see the obvious.

3. Your comment about John Howard, is completely irrelevant. Beter read twice and try to understand what is written.

4. The omelet comment is used by ruthless generals to justify murders of civilians. Saddam and Baath party should not face trial. They should face execution over a slow fire. But the U.S./British have nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing.

5. Your comment on the death rate is again off target. I am certain that you yourself know that death is the saddest thing. There are thousands killed in this war, my comment was not on the rate.

6. No need to explain to me what a red-neck is. It was just a reference in our little "insult" game.

In general, I don't think we could ever agree on the subject, but your views are of course welcome and respected. This is the reason I'm trying to make clear of what I mean and my antithesis to this war.

On the other hand, Stellar, I promise you I'm gonna watch today both Rambo 1,2,3,4 and Top Gun at least 25 times in order to learn the precious Rules of Engagement. Please let me know if I need to watch additional footage to enhance my knowledge. Your timely reply would be highly appreciated....original.gif

Abrazos amigos!!!

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Sunofone
I must admit, I always thought that a redneck was America's answer to the common or garden ned huh.gif A person who is rude, poorly educated, and more often than not unemployed huh.gif

517780[/snapback]

well i live in tx and around here a redneck is a caucasian who works on a farm all day and drives a pick-up truck and the back of their neck gets really red-and there you have it-cuz its hotter than sh** round here-s.tx to beexact-it snowed here this winter for two days which hadnt happened here in over a hundred years-there were 40-50yr old locals who had never seen snow before that day other that on tv

Edited by Sunofone

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Stellar
On the other hand, Stellar, I promise you I'm gonna watch today both Rambo 1,2,3,4 and Top Gun at least 25 times in order to learn the precious Rules of Engagement. Please let me know if I need to watch additional footage to enhance my knowledge. Your timely reply would be highly appreciated...

Yeah, umm... good luck with that. Not only do movies like that not have the proper RoEs (if they have any)... RoEs change depending on your task and location.

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