The Rise / Fall of Gods first Archangle Light Bearer Lucifer — Why Did he actually fall?

[XenoFish]

4 hours ago, eight bits said:

Hercules

Reminds me of Samson. Some god empowered psychopath. 

[eight bits]

13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Reminds me of Samson. Some god empowered psychopath. 

I think of Hercules as an even more Greek Jesus.

[+Sherapy]

23 hours ago, Guyver said:

Happy New Year!

I can speak on this topic because I was an Evangelical/Pentecostal religious adherent for about thirty years…by choice!  Many evangelical people consider “the devil” aka “Satan” and “Lucifer” to be a real being that actually has religious or spiritual control over this planet.  He is considered by Evangelical/Traditional Christianity to be Gods enemy, our enemy, and especially the enemy of the church.  The New Testament and the Old differ in the way Satan is presented.  In the New Testament which is what Christians believe in following today, the devil or Satan, enemy of the church brings forth the antichrist which leads to the tribulation period and the end of our planet.  Many people are so convinced by these ideas, that have have sold everything, cashed out and went to a mountain, or some church property to camp out until the rapture takes them away.  I even once believed it myself.  I no longer do, because after much thoughtful and soul crushing honesty, I came to the understanding that the Revelation is a false prophecy and the apostles were mistaken about the end of the world.  Peace be with all readers.

Wow, what an interesting experience thank you for sharing. Happy New to you and yours, Guyv.

[SHaYap]

It's all Greek to me... 

Quote

https://www.cs.colostate.edu › ashoka

KING ASHOKA: His Edicts and His Times

 

King Asoka, the third monarch of the Indian Mauryan dynasty, has come to be ... as far as Tamraparni and where the Greek king Antiochos rules, and among the ...

 

 

 

 

https://www.crf-usa.org › bria-14-4-...

The Edicts of Asoka - Constitutional Rights Foundation

 

Asoka's conversion to Buddhism may have influenced the way he chose to rule his kingdom. In the Mauryan Empire, the king's word was law. Asoka inherited ...

 

 

 

 

https://www.jstor.org › stable

notes on the greek version of asoka's twelfth - jstor

 

by KR Norman · 1972 · Cited by 21 — Benveniste, "A new Greek inscription of Asoka at Kandahar", Ep. Ind., XXXV??, ... merely "translating" mechanically...

~

 

[+joc]

On 12/31/2021 at 9:45 AM, Crazy Horse said:

Christianity is a tale that diminished in the telling..

Honestly, I feel that if Christ was around to-day, he might have a thing or two to say about the Church, and its leaders..

Yeah but today nobody would listen to him.

Basically the Bible is the story of an Entity that created a Galaxy and played with the Creation to entertain itself.  It wasn't holy, it wasn't even that smart...it was just bored.  First the Entity creates a lifeform in its own image.  Then plants a garden the lifeform can sustain itself with.  Then the Entity commands the lifeform to NOT eat the delicious looking fruit in the middle of the garden...or they would die.  So, of course the lifeform ate the fruit...Child Psychology 101....and of course the Entity expelled said lifeform from the Garden.  

Later he was just really angry because the lifeform wouldn't worship the way it wanted the lifeform to do.  So the Entity destroyed virtually all of the lifeforms keeping only a few to repopulate the planet.  The Entity mistakenly believed things might be different.  They weren't.  So the Entity raped a young girl in order to impregnate her so he could sacrifice the new lifeform as some kind of apology for being such a mean Entity in the beginning and maybe that would work.  It didn't.  It hasn't.  It cannot...except in the movies.  Because a fantasy is a fantasy is a fantasy...it's all fantasy.

 

[Mr Walker]

On 1/1/2022 at 12:16 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

In what verses will we find where Satan is challenging the power and especially 'form of governance' of God in Job?  His role in Job is actually very limited and he is rarely mentioned after the initial challenge and his torturing of Job.  Although I'd guess that some of the attention it gets is because we have a rare cameo of Satan the bulk of the text is about the relationship between God and Job, not God and Satan.

Job is a good example actually of this capability.  As enjoyable as scraping painful sores with a broken piece of pottery sounds, God is still responsible for everything that happens to Job; Satan doesn't bring up Job, God does, and this test is God's idea not Satan's.  I at least have no reservations about what to call torturing someone as part of a bet, especially when it's done by a supreme being who seems to have self-confidence issues: evil.

The bible is a set of stories by many authors, written over several centuries 

The bible is a narrative, which forms the basis of Christian theology 

This creates some problems 

If you take the latter first, then you must look at the construction and narrative of the whole bible from  beginning to end These books are those chosen fro,  many to form the basis of the Christian faith There are some contradictions between some of the  author's portrayal of god because ach author had a personal perspective  and the later ones built deliberately upon the earlier, Jewish, ones 

It is not really until the concluding chapter  that the whole narrative is made clear,  including the evolving nature of satan (Ie Lucifer the shining head  of the angels,  the serpent  then Satan 

If you look at each book separately   you will find contradictions and not really get the pattern of the narrative 

No one book from the bible is the basis of Christianity You can't even say that only the NT is the basis of Christian belief 

The whole text, as  chosen and published, forms that  basis  (whether as a belief or simply as a mythological narrative  )

The story of job is not quite as you present it But even if it was, both Jewish and christian theologians have several  explanations for why it was written as it was (some  consider it  just a teaching tale) 

Others explain logically why god acted as he did and why it was not evil but serving a greater good . 

ie god may allow evil, to prevent greater evil 

 

 

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, eight bits said:

Good morning and Happy New Year, @Mr Walker.

Once more, what you and I were discussing is Job. There is no controversy that modern Christians, both mainstream and fringe, generally accept the view of Satan that emerged long after the composition of Job.

The Catholic catechism is, as you say, convenient as an official source of what the largest and nearly majority Christian denomination teaches, in far more detail than the typical church's "statement of faith." Although your site is good enough, for future reference, you may prefer to use the Vatican's own catechism website. The link for our current discussion is:

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM

(In the best legal tradition: Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, Paragraph 7. We are looking at Subparagraph 2. "The fall of the angels," in its entirety, index items 391-395 and the associated notes, 266-275).

I notice that your copypasta stops right before the only portion that is relevant to our discussion, the notes which contain the scriptural and other sources the catechism uses. We're looking for where the catechism cites Job. Your website includes these notes. Why didn't you copy them here?

No problem, I'll do that for you now, after checking that they agree with the Vatican site. Yes, they do. Let me expand out the abbreviations of the biblical books, to make them easier to read. Jewish scipture references are in bold and bigger type, so they stand out.

In addition to the New Testament, a council and a patristic non-biblical citation, the only biblical sources are Genesis chapter 3 and Wisdom (of Solomon), an apocryphal text.

There is nothing there about Job.

You suggested i did not present  the official Catholic position'.

I did. 

Furthermore, the source  came up in a search  "catholic catechism job" So it directly referenced the church's position on Satan in Job.

Maybe its too early in the year yet but i don't really understand what you are complaining about in the latter part of this post  

This discussion  (as  I began it ) only refers to the CHRISTIAN  conception of the role of Satan.  Some Jews see it differently, with at least 3 different  understandings about the nature of Satan.

Revelations ties Lucifer , the serpent, and Satan, together as one being. Isiah is speaking f the actual  fallen angel Lucifer, not just the king of tyre  ( Based on the specific language and terms/ titles, used .)

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, eight bits said:

There's another aspect of the problem, the parallels between Satan and Prometheus. Although they are definitely not the same character, they have their correspondences.

Starting, I suppose, with a war in heaven. The Greek gods are giants (Titans). They are not creator gods, at least not in a "something from nothing" sense. They  managed to have a "civil war" among themselves: Zeus and his allies against Zeus's father, Cronus, and his allies. Team Zeus won, and they became the "new" gods.

There were also Titans who made peace with the new gods, among them Prometheus ("Forethought"). As a Titan, he is "of the same substance" as Zeus. As his name suggests, he was renowned for his intellectual brilliance (much like you know who).

Famously, Prometheus commits the primal hero deed, fire theft, and donates the proceeds to humanity for their improvement (that is, he is a light bearer to humankind, a Lucifer). That puts him on Zeus's bad side, and he is condemened to what sounds like the sort of punishment that will later be found in Christian and Muslim hells: bound to a rock where an eagle eats his liver once a day, everyday (the liver grows back), an ordeal scheduled to last forever.

Meanwhile, Zeus orchestrates the fall of humankind, which involves a woman being disobedient about "the one forbidden thing," thereby releasing all earthly woes as a result. Speaking of parallels between distinct stories ...

However, the Titans have a fondness for earth girls (compare Genesis 6:1-4), and Zeus is no exception. Among his hybrid children is Hercules. Hercules is mainly a tragic hero, who ends up being betrayed, and finally ascends into heaven. Along the way, however, he encounters the bound Prometheus. Flipping off his father's will, Hercules gives Prometheus his salvation and sets him free. Ultimately, Zeus forgives his son, even tries to prevent his gruesome death (unlike another well-known divine father) and ultimately welcomes him to Olympus.

There is a "minority opinion" about Satan, that like Prometheus, he is actually a hero. Once the late ancients equated Satan with the Serpent of Eden, well, there's more than one way to interpret that story. Serpent opens Adam and the Woman's eyes to their potential to be more than gardeners for the absentee landlord. (Serpent ends up a multiple amputee for his trouble.. No Hercules will be able to fix that.)

This heroic aspect of the Prince of Darkness appealed to Gnostics, who were already doubtful about the goodness of the Jewish God. The very idea of Gnosticism is that supernatural knowledge exists about a kind of divinity that is available to humans. It's easy to interpret Eden's Serpent as the bringer of such knowledge to humans.

Anyway, it's hard not to like Prometheus. Once the parallels between Prometheus and Satan are highlighted, it's difficult to see Satan as all bad, either. At a minimum, he embodies (mmm.. emspirits?) an independent point of view, a healthy balance to the lopsided ego-inflation that characterizes I AM.

Judaism is an evolution of  Hebiru ,Egyptian and Babylonian beliefs. Christianity is an evolution of Judaism pagan and Roman beliefs  ( which, in turn, held a lot of Greek beliefs ) 

It would be surprising if there were NOT similarities and overlaps 

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

One thing that's kind of critical to this but I don't see discussed (yet) is the idea of "fallen angels."

It's not actually a biblical concept.  They don't appear in any of the books of the Bible.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_angel  In Judaic tradition, angels are more like automatons:  "In the Jewish tradition they are also inferior to humans since they have no will of their own and are only able to carry out one divine command." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel#Abrahamic_religions

Therefore "Lucifer the fallen angel" isn't (strictly speaking) Biblical and he couldn't be the leader of some or any fallen angels.

And in fact, the idea of "fallen angels" brings up a logical conundrum:  Angels are created by an all-knowing deity.  Some of them sinned and were cast from heaven.  SO... if the deity that made them is all-knowing and all-powerful and sees all -- he must have deliberately made sinning angels so that he could throw them into hell.

Which means there's no such thing as a "war against heaven" because the chessmaster who set up the board knows exactly how strong each side is and can manipulate them to his amusement.

The history of angels (the idea) is quite interesting -- but if you stick strictly to the Bible and not other sources, there is no such thing as fallen angels and therefore Lucifer (who is actually the king of Babylon) can't possibly lead them.

Or you have to look at the bible in another light entirely 

Angels are like humans,  created with self will.  The y have a choice to obey or not   Thus nothing is preordained and god cannot know the future absolutely. Indeed many instances in the bible indicate that god did NOT know the result of his actions 

The most telling point here is that, if the angels are only doing gods will, then god is evil .

Given that it was the god of the writers, the y were NOT portraying god as evil. This evil comes from  the choices of angels and humans. God's only contribution was the gift of free will.

As I've pointed out before, while it can not be certain, the language used to describe  the king of tyre in Ezekiel is ONLY used for heavenly beings, not mortals. Thus while the king of tyre ,might have been a mortal  metaphor, the real character described there is  Lucifer /Satan

quote 

Ezekiel 28:12-19 ESV 

“Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God: “You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. ...

 

Ps revelations is pretty clear on this back story  It was probably written, in part, to  fill in that back story 

 

Revelation 12:7-12 ESV 

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. ...

 

Revelation 12:4 ESV 

His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.

 

There are other references to the war and the fall of Lucifer /Satan' 

 

Isaiah 14:12 ESV 

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

Jude 1:6 ESV 

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

Luke 10:18 ESV

And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

2 Peter 2:4 ESV

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

2 Corinthians 11:14 ESV

And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

 

https://www.openbible.info/topics/war_in_heaven

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Mr Walker

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, joc said:

Yeah but today nobody would listen to him.

Basically the Bible is the story of an Entity that created a Galaxy and played with the Creation to entertain itself.  It wasn't holy, it wasn't even that smart...it was just bored.  First the Entity creates a lifeform in its own image.  Then plants a garden the lifeform can sustain itself with.  Then the Entity commands the lifeform to NOT eat the delicious looking fruit in the middle of the garden...or they would die.  So, of course the lifeform ate the fruit...Child Psychology 101....and of course the Entity expelled said lifeform from the Garden.  

Later he was just really angry because the lifeform wouldn't worship the way it wanted the lifeform to do.  So the Entity destroyed virtually all of the lifeforms keeping only a few to repopulate the planet.  The Entity mistakenly believed things might be different.  They weren't.  So the Entity raped a young girl in order to impregnate her so he could sacrifice the new lifeform as some kind of apology for being such a mean Entity in the beginning and maybe that would work.  It didn't.  It hasn't.  It cannot...except in the movies.  Because a fantasy is a fantasy is a fantasy...it's all fantasy.

 

That’s an interesting take on things JOC, but I would expect nothing less from you my friend!

Well Happy New Years My friend, I hope this finds you and your wife in Great Health, Safety, Happiness, and Prosperity and may the coming years be the best you have ever experienced!

[eight bits]

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You suggested i did not present  the official Catholic position'

No, First, I verified that your copypasta accurately represented the Catholic catechism. Kind of, you'd left out a key, potentially relevant portion, so I supplied that. Then I showed, not suggested, that what you'd copied said nothing about the book of Job, not even when presented in full.

I think it's a riot that you're suddenly posturing as a Catholic apologist. Carry on.

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Furthermore, the source  came up in a search  "catholic catechism job" So it directly referenced the church's position on Satan in Job.

When I search that phrase, I get employment ads. I guess I'll never be half the Google scholar that you are.

I mean seriously, Walker, who gives a flying fatootie that a second-hand report of official but irrelevant biblebabble came up in your Google search? Had you merely read the thing, including deciphering the abbreviations in the notes (not a "speed reading" task), then you'd have determined that it wasn't what you were looking for.

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

It would be surprising if there were NOT similarities and overlaps 

Not surprising, just interesting, at least IMO.

[Will Due]

 

And yet the question remains. Why did he fall? But there's an even more important question. Why doesn't he get up?

Don't you get up when you fall down? In continuing to stubbornly stay down, did the natural inherent balance of mind become lost to him? 

But what's truly astonishing about this is that apparently, some who are observing (as an alternative for themselves) see brilliance in him.

 

 

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

And yet the question remains. Why did he fall? But there's an even more important question. Why doesn't he get up?

Don't you get up when you fall down? In continuing to stubbornly stay down, did the natural inherent balance of mind become lost to him? 

But what's truly astonishing about this is that apparently, some who are observing (as an alternative for themselves) see brilliance in him.

 

 

What do you mean by natural inherent balance of the mind? Curious.

[+Sherapy]

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You suggested i did not present  the official Catholic position'.

I did. 

Furthermore, the source  came up in a search  "catholic catechism job" So it directly referenced the church's position on Satan in Job.

Maybe its too early in the year yet but i don't really understand what you are complaining about in the latter part of this post  

This discussion  (as  I began it ) only refers to the CHRISTIAN  conception of the role of Satan.  Some Jews see it differently, with at least 3 different  understandings about the nature of Satan.

Revelations ties Lucifer , the serpent, and Satan, together as one being. Isiah is speaking f the actual  fallen angel Lucifer, not just the king of tyre  ( Based on the specific language and terms/ titles, used .)

@eight bits
I can’t take it called in the big gun ~our go to on all things Judaism. 
 

Our very own Mklsgl taught a University course on “Job” as a Professor and of course he is Jewish. I reached out to him about this thread and we will be talking tomorrow morning, he is thrilled as Job is his favorite book int the OT.  It should make for an interesting add too as per MKL “Job belongs to the stricter Torah and Talmud experienced  POV and many online sources are Reformed Judaism.” Stay tuned. 
 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Sherapy

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

And yet the question remains. Why did he fall? But there's an even more important question. Why doesn't he get up?

Don't you get up when you fall down? In continuing to stubbornly stay down, did the natural inherent balance of mind become lost to him? 

But what's truly astonishing about this is that apparently, some who are observing (as an alternative for themselves) see brilliance in him.

 

 

It tells you that 'Lucifer', or the 'Bright Morning Star' was the title/nickname for Nebuchadnesar. He fell from grace and glory.

Like someone saying to some arrogant ego-maniac, "and what are you now, big shot?"

 

[eight bits]

46 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Mklsgl

Outstanding!

 

2 hours ago, Will Due said:

But there's an even more important question. Why doesn't he get up?

Maybe Milton had it right, and it really is better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven.

 

51 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

"and what are you now, big shot?"

Is that schadenfreude? (Enjoyment of another's misfortune) This is:

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The story of job is not quite as you present it

Like where?  Where did I mispresent 'the story'?

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

It is not really until the concluding chapter  that the whole narrative is made clear,

We are talking about Job, not 'the bible'.  I think you mean concluding 'book' in the bible, Revelation, not the last chapter of Job.  Job, which was the subject, is not made clear by Revelation, it has little to do with it; the Satans involved in those two books are almost like two different characters, like pod-racing young Anakin Skywalker and Mr Vader.

[Kenemet]

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Or you have to look at the bible in another light entirely 

First you have to recognize that it's not a book handed down by some johnny-come-lately entity (the Christian religion is one of the younger ones on the planet) but rather a compilation of SOME of the hundreds of very short books written about the Jewish religion and the sects that called themselves Christians.  And the choices for material in it weren't universal, either.

Quote

Angels are like humans,  created with self will.  The y have a choice to obey or not   

This is a more modern interpretation.  When the books you're citing were written, the idea of angels was that they were simply physical manifestations of the deity's will.  Automatons.  No self will and no intelligence.  All the Biblical books describe them as being less than humans.

Quote

As I've pointed out before, while it can not be certain, the language used to describe  the king of tyre in Ezekiel is ONLY used for heavenly beings, not mortals. Thus while the king of tyre ,might have been a mortal  metaphor, the real character described there is  Lucifer /Satan

The problem with hunting and pecking Bible verses and not reading the entire book is that the verses make no sense in context with the book.  Yahweh has assigned Ezekiel to go give warnings to the rulers of four city-states.  Yahweh could not possibly be sending a human to deliver a message to a "fallen angel" (a concept that did not exist when the book was written.)  It makes no sense to send three messages to three rulers and then suddenly treat a nearly co-equal evil divinity as some sort of human ruler.  In the cases where Yahweh interacts with ha-Satan, the Opposer is never treated as human or a king.

Also... Jewish scriptural annotations (which date back to the writing of the books or near there) confirm that this is a human being.  The original meaning of the book didn't suddenly change when it was inserted into the Christian religion.

Quote

Ps revelations is pretty clear on this back story  It was probably written, in part, to  fill in that back story 

(bible quoting snipped)

There are other references to the war and the fall of Lucifer /Satan' 

Isaiah 14:12 ESV 

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

That's the king of Babylon.  And it says so rather explicitly.  Jewish scriptures confirm that this verse is about a human being.  Again, the original meaning of the text (as confirmed by the people who wrote it) doesn't suddenly change because a different religion appropriates it.

Quote

2 Peter 2:4 ESV

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

2 Corinthians 11:14 ESV

And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Again, this is a book written by people who follow a faith different than the original Jewish faith.  So Old and New Testaments should really be discussed separately.  The people who wrote the Old Testament did not think of angels as beings with free will nor did they think of a great co-equal evil deity existing.  That's something acquired when the followers of a preacher popularized his (and their) views... views that were distinctly Hellenistic and had a blend of other cultural elements mixed in.

So only the New Testament (compiled as a book and canonized late in the 4th century AD) can be taken as evidence of or discussion for fallen angels.

And in historical/religious terms, the idea of a "fallen angel" with a king (Satan) over them is a fairly new idea, likely borrowed from the Zororastrians.  The older religions did not have a single "leader of a band of evilness" deity.

 

 

[Kenemet]

38 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

We are talking about Job, not 'the bible'.  I think you mean concluding 'book' in the bible, Revelation, not the last chapter of Job.  Job, which was the subject, is not made clear by Revelation, it has little to do with it; the Satans involved in those two books are almost like two different characters, like pod-racing young Anakin Skywalker and Mr Vader.

You're correct.  

The concept of Satan (ha-Satan) in Job was very different than the Evil Deity in the Book of Revelation. The Jews did not believe in a Ruler of All Evil Stuff.

[Will Due]

 

The Book of Job is simply a protest against a religious idea held by many of that era, the concept of Providence. The teaching that material prosperity was a reward for serving God.

 

 

[Crazy Horse]

16 hours ago, joc said:

Yeah but today nobody would listen to him.

Basically the Bible is the story of an Entity that created a Galaxy and played with the Creation to entertain itself.  It wasn't holy, it wasn't even that smart...it was just bored.  First the Entity creates a lifeform in its own image.  Then plants a garden the lifeform can sustain itself with.  Then the Entity commands the lifeform to NOT eat the delicious looking fruit in the middle of the garden...or they would die.  So, of course the lifeform ate the fruit...Child Psychology 101....and of course the Entity expelled said lifeform from the Garden.  

Later he was just really angry because the lifeform wouldn't worship the way it wanted the lifeform to do.  So the Entity destroyed virtually all of the lifeforms keeping only a few to repopulate the planet.  The Entity mistakenly believed things might be different.  They weren't.  So the Entity raped a young girl in order to impregnate her so he could sacrifice the new lifeform as some kind of apology for being such a mean Entity in the beginning and maybe that would work.  It didn't.  It hasn't.  It cannot...except in the movies.  Because a fantasy is a fantasy is a fantasy...it's all fantasy.

 

Honestly Joc, I think the fall of Man, was the souls fall into mind, and duality.

And the ego is the fallen shadow, of the mind.

And the rest, as they say, is history..

[Crazy Horse]

39 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

The Book of Job is simply a protest against a religious idea held by many of that era, the concept of Providence. The teaching that material prosperity was a reward for serving God.

 

 

Will, the only thing that is real, Real, REAL, is the Present Moment.

[+joc]

10 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Honestly Joc, I think the fall of Man, was the souls fall into mind, and duality.

And the ego is the fallen shadow, of the mind.

And the rest, as they say, is history..

I don't think Man fell...I think man evolved.  The soul, the mind, duality...those are all non-descriptive terms of non-reality.  In 'reality' there is no soul...when you die, ahem, you are dead.  In reality, there is no 'mind'...there is the brain...and if the brain isn't working correctly, not much of a mind is there?  Duality?  There is only singularity in reality.  This moment and no other...always changing, never changing.  

[Crazy Horse]

12 minutes ago, joc said:

I don't think Man fell...I think man evolved.  The soul, the mind, duality...those are all non-descriptive terms of non-reality.  In 'reality' there is no soul...when you die, ahem, you are dead.  In reality, there is no 'mind'...there is the brain...and if the brain isn't working correctly, not much of a mind is there?  Duality?  There is only singularity in reality.  This moment and no other...always changing, never changing.  

 

Joc..

If there is only the Singularity, then why even think about anything else?

[Will Due]

5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

What do you mean by natural inherent balance of the mind? Curious.

 

Unless affected with a physical disorder, all mind is naturally and inherently balanced. It's why animals never experience a psychotic disconnection with reality and never commit suicide. But with people, things can be a whole lot different.

In my opinion, when a person recognizes reality for what it is, and then subsequently decides to be persistent in being defiant towards it, even though it may be unnoticed looking at it from the outside, his or her mind will slowly lose its natural equilibrium resulting eventually in the inability to ever gain it back again.

In the case of losing one's mind this way, it's not the defiance of acknowledged reality that matters so much as the unrelenting persistence in its opposition that is.

 

 

12 hours ago, eight bits said:

Maybe Milton had it right, and it really is better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven.

 

See above.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Will Due