About 1/5 of adult Aussies think Jesus is fictional or mythical

[Dreamer screamer]

1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

Yet you can't accept the fact that the Bible states God appoints leaders.  Sounds like denial.

I can accept that fact!!  I was pointing out the leaders that he appoints are all those that know each other, went to the same school and same place of worship.  Can't God apoint someone with intelligence?   Plus why is AMERICA, BRITAIN and AUSTRALIA all Corporations?

PLus, where is the contract I have with the Government?

PLus Joe biden was appointed by God??    He couldn't walk up the stairs, or was that God tripping him up for a laugh?

Edited February 6, 2022 by Dreamer screamer

[Saru]

Back on topic please.

[Davros of Skaro]

There's plenty of bad scholarship out there for, and against mythicism. 

Then there's glossing over pertinent details in order to prove a point by those that should know better (or do know. But are in a bind with family, and, or job needing the point).

With the evidence laid out the reasonable person should be skeptical on historicity.

The Gospels/Acts are heavy on literary fabrication (not just the miracles). The outside sources cannot be established confidently that they are independant of the Gospels for information. Signs of interpolations, and rewritting of history to support Jesus. Then you have the earliest Christian writings of Paul that have a Jesus revealed through OT scripture, and visions/dreams (he even says the Pillars are getting Jesus the same way). Then there's Philo of Alexandria whose God's firstborn son the archangel of many names being very similar to Paul's Jesus, but the former never had a parable written about it set on Earth (which the unknown authored Mark seems to be, and the others copied, then expanded). Many people do not know this, but may tend to believe awful scholarship like the garbage used at the end of Bill Maher's Religulous movie, or that Zeitgeist video that's been making the rounds for over a decade.

I think the majority of people that do not believe Jesus existed are getting it from bad info. Also is the bad apologetics that only wins over the already won.

To me personally Jesus is the Divine Word, the utterence/vocalization of God being his immediate subordinate power just as Spiderman is Peter Parker, and being real in peoples imagination.

Philippians 2:9-11

"9 Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Isaiah 45:22-25

"22 Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: "To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." 24 Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; all who were incensed against him shall come to him and be ashamed. 
25 In the LORD all the offspring of Israel shall triumph and glory."

 

[Will Due]

26 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

 me personally 

 

We'll Spiderman, you're definitely not Peter Parker.

 

 

[Davros of Skaro]

25 minutes ago, Will Due said:

We'll Spiderman, you're definitely not Peter Parker.

Is the Garasene Demoniac narrative in Mark borrowing from other sources like the OT, and Homeric epics, or is it a coincidence, or the power of biblical prophecy?

Mark 5:1-20

"1 They came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gerasenes. 2 And when he had stepped out of the boat, immediately a man out of the tombs with an unclean spirit met him. 3 He lived among the tombs; and no one could restrain him any more, even with a chain; 4 for he had often been restrained with shackles and chains, but the chains he wrenched apart, and the shackles he broke in pieces; and no one had the strength to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always howling and bruising himself with stones. 6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down before him; 7 and he shouted at the top of his voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.” 8 For he had said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!” 9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” 10 He begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country. 11 Now there on the hillside a great herd of swine was feeding; 12 and the unclean spirits begged him, “Send us into the swine; let us enter them.” 13 So he gave them permission. And the unclean spirits came out and entered the swine; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea.

14 The swineherds ran off and told it in the city and in the country. Then people came to see what it was that had happened. 15 They came to Jesus and saw the demoniac sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, the very man who had had the legion; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen what had happened to the demoniac and to the swine reported it. 17 Then they began to beg Jesus to leave their neighborhood. 18 As he was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed by demons begged him that he might be with him. 19 But Jesus refused, and said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and what mercy he has shown you.” 20 And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him; and everyone was amazed."

A: Philo: In Flaccum

"VI There was a certain madman named Carabbas,... this man spent all this days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold nor heat,..."

Isaiah 65:1, :4a

"1 I was ready to be sought out by those who did not ask, to be found by those who did not seek me. I said, 'Here I am, here I am',
to a nation that did not call on my name."

"4a who sit inside tombs, and spend the night in secret places; who eat swine's flesh,"

Psalm 107:4-7 :10-14

"4 Some wandered in desert wastes, finding no way to a city to dwell in; 5 hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted within them. 6 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress; 7 he led them by a straight way, till they reached a city to dwell in."

"10 Some sat in darkness and in gloom, prisoners in affliction and in irons, 11 for they had rebelled against the words of God, and spurned the counsel of the Most High. 12 Their hearts were bowed down with hard labor; they fell down, with none to help. 13 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress; 14 he brought them out of darkness and gloom, and broke their bonds asunder."

1 Kings 17:18

"18 And she said to Eli′jah, “What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!” "

Psalm 78:49

"49 He let loose on them his fierce anger, wrath, indignation, and distress, a (legion) company of destroying angels."

Exodus 14:28a

"28a The waters returned and covered the chariots and the horsemen and all the host of Pharaoh that had followed them into the sea;"

1 Corinthians 15:26

"26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

Romans 6:9

"9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him."

"Mark's imitation also retains some of the distinctive traits of Odyssey, insofar as both stories place monsters in caves, grazing animals on the mountains, and neighbors at the scene. ...Finally, just as Odysseus told Polyphemus to tell others who it was who blinded him, Jesus tells the Gerasene to tell others who it was who healed him."

Dennis R MacDonald, The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark, pp. 73

"Despite scholarly efforts to detect an underlying Aramaic original for Mark or Matthew, it is probable that all the evangelists wrote in the common (koinē) Greek of their day. Further, the vast majority of Hebrew Bible citations in the New Testament are taken from the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (the Septuagint)."

"Large sections of Matthew, Mark, and Luke repeat stories about and sayings of Jesus in nearly identical words. Hence these three Gospels are referred to as the “Synoptic” Gospels (from Gk synoptikos, “viewed together”). On a linguistic level, both Luke and Matthew improve on Mark’s style, smoothing out inelegant expressions and repetitions. Luke eliminates Mark’s characteristic use of parataxis (one short phrase following another without indicating how they are related) by employing balancing particles and subordinate clauses. Matthew follows Mark’s outline, though the insertion of considerable sections of discourse material may obscure that relationship for the casual reader. Luke knows most of Mark but has no parallels to Mk 6.45–8.26; whether Luke chose to omit this section or had a different version of Mark remains unclear. Detailed analysis of the traditions shared by Matthew, Mark, and Luke provides strong support for the view that Mark provided the template that Matthew and Luke revised, both correcting and smoothing out its language and expanding the Jesus material it contained."

"While the Synoptic Gospels have a close literary relationship, the Fourth Gospel, the Gospel of John, presents a much greater puzzle. Its chronology of Jesus’s ministry differs from that of the Synoptics. In John, Jesus spends three years preaching, during which he journeys between Galilee and Jerusalem; in the Synoptic Gospels, he visits Jerusalem only once, at the end of a ministry that apparently lasted less than a year. The episode denouncing the sellers in the Temple, which enrages the religious authorities and leads to his death in the Synoptics, occurs near the beginning of the three-year ministry in John (Jn 2.13–22). John claims that Jesus’s popularity with Jerusalem crowds after he dramatically restored Lazarus to life awakened political fears for the safety of the nation (Jn 11.45–57; 12.9–11). John’s account of the passion also differs markedly: there is no agony. Conscious of his unity with the Father and the cross as his exaltation and return to preexistent glory, Jesus controls all the events;..."

The New Oxford Annotated Bible NRSV, pp. 1380-1381

[Guest Br Cornelius]

When you have accepted atheism as the truth it really becomes pointless following the internal labyrinth of Biblical scholarship.
Remember there has literally never been a biblical scholar who is not a christian or was not trained by a christian - there is literally no impartiality or scholarly integrity to the whole field and there is no source which has not been tainted by passing through the hands of a highly invested Christian scribe.

All you are ultimately left with is faith - and your faith is as good as mine - but mine is far more credible based upon the modern understanding of science.
 

Br Cornelius

[Will Due]

 

@Davros of Skaro and @Br Cornelius

All I will say to the both of you is that I was once at this juncture you basically are referring to. Of seeing the inconsistencies. Just don't stop looking for the resolutions to these problems. The answers are out there. You may have already encountered them but for many a particular reason, you weren't able to recognize it for what it is. But that can change.

 

 

[Davros of Skaro]

7 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

@Davros of Skaro and @Br Cornelius

All I will say to the both of you is that I was once at this juncture you basically are referring to. Of seeing the inconsistencies. Just don't stop looking for the resolutions to these problems. The answers are out there. You may have already encountered them but for many a particular reason, you weren't able to recognize it for what it is. But that can change.

Not everyone can have an Armor of God equivalent to a deep underground nuke proof bunker such as you have.

[Will Due]

13 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Not everyone can have an Armor of God equivalent to a deep underground nuke proof bunker such as you have.

 

Well, you might eventually reconsider that.

 

 

[Davros of Skaro]

4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Well, you might eventually reconsider that.

Maybe from a serious brain injury, or fits of dementia from advanced age.

The High Priest's headdress had a crown representing a plant known for it's hallucinogenic properties at which a golden plate covered the forehead. On said golden plate was inscribed sacred characters for the name of God.

Josephus: THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS, BOOK 3, CHAPTER 7 (172-178), CONCERNING THE GARMENTS ...OF THE HIGH PRIEST

"6. The high priest's mitre was the same that we described before, and was wrought like that of all the other priests; above which there was another, with swathes of blue embroidered, and round it was a golden crown polished, of three rows, one above another; out of which arose a cup of gold, which resembled the herb which we call Saccharus: but those Greeks that are skilful in botany call it Hyoscyamus. ...Now the fruit is preserved by this coat of the calyx, which fruit is like the seed of the herb Sideritis: it sends out a flower that may seem to resemble that of poppy. Of this was a crown made, as far as from the hinder part of the head to each of the temples; but this Ephielis, for so this calyx may be called, did not cover the forehead, but it was covered with a golden plate, which had inscribed upon it the name of God in sacred characters. And such were the ornaments of the high priest."

Hyoscyamus Niger

" ...was historically used..., as well as for its psychoactive properties in "magic brews". These psychoactive properties include visual hallucinations and a sensation of flight. ...The plant, recorded as Herba Apollinaris, was used to yield oracles by the priestesses of Apollo."

wiki/Hyoscyamus_niger

Philippians 3:5

"5 circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;"

2 Corinthians 12:1-4

"1 It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven — whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. 3 And I know that such a person — whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows — 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat."

Philo: THE SPECIAL LAWS, III

"I There was once a time when, devoting my leisure to philosophy and to the contemplation of the world and the things in it, I reaped the fruit of excellent, and desirable, and blessed intellectual feelings, being always living among the divine oracles and doctrines, on which I fed incessantly and insatiably, to my great delight, never entertaining any low or grovelling thoughts, nor ever wallowing in the pursuit of glory or wealth, or the delights of the body, but I appeared to be raised on high and borne aloft by a certain inspiration of the soul, and to dwell in the regions of the sun and moon, and to associate with the whole heaven, and the whole universal world. At that time, therefore, looking down from above, from the air, and straining the eye of my mind as from a watch-tower, I surveyed the unspeakable contemplation of all the things on the earth, and looked upon myself as happy as having forcibly escaped from all the evil fates that can attack human life. ...Behold, therefore, I venture not only to study the sacred commands of Moses, but also with an ardent love of knowledge to investigate each separate one of them, and to endeavour to reveal and to explain to those who wish to understand them, things concerning them which are not known to the multitude."

Spiritual kinship & an angel of God (Gal. 4:5-7, :14, Heb. 1:4) 

Philo: ON THE CONFUSION OF TONGUES 

"XI ...In reference to which I admire those who say, “We are all one man’s sons, we are men of Peace,” (Gen. 42:11) because of their well-adapted agreement; since how, I should say, could you, O excellent men, avoid being grieved at war, and delighted in peace, being the sons of one and the same father, and he not mortal but immortal, the man of God, who being the reason of the everlasting God, is of necessity himself also immortal?" 

"XXVIII ...And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God’s image, and he who sees Israel. For which reason I was induced a little while ago to praise the principles of those who said, “We are all one man’s Sons.” (Gen. 42:11) For even if we are not yet suitable to be called the sons of God, still we may deserve to be called the children of his eternal image, of his most sacred word; for the image of God is his most ancient word...." 

Note: Gal. 1:19 "but I did not see any other apostle except James the LORD's brother." This could be a cultic title (like Peter/Cephas which means "Rock" could have been, or an idiom) rather than being a biological relation? Paul constantly refers to those "in Christ" as brothers/sisters in a spiritual family.

Good shepherd (Heb. 13:20) 

Philo: ON THE CHANGE OF NAMES 

"XIX ...for they have abandoned all connections with pride, and having connected themselves with lawful persuasion, choosing to become a portion of the sacred flock, of which the divine word is the leader, as his name shows, for it signifies the pastoral care of God." 

"XX But while he is taking care of his own flock, all kinds of good things are given all at once to those of the sheep who are obedient, and who do not resist his will; and in the Psalms we find a song in these words, “The Lord is my shepherd, therefore shall I lack Nothing;” (psa. 23:1) therefore the mind which has had the royal shepherd, the divine word, for its instructor,..." 

Purification, forgiveness of sins & glorification (1 Cor. 6:11, 2 Cor. 3:18, 4:6) 

Philo: ON THE LIFE OF MOSES, II 

"XXVI Such then are the figurative meanings which he desires to indicate by the sacred vestments of the high priest;... ...namely the logeum, being also an emblem of that reason which holds together and regulates the universe. For it was indispensable that the man who was consecrated to the Father of the world, should have as a paraclete, his son, the being most perfect in all virtue, to procure forgiveness of sins, and a supply of unlimited blessings;..." 

Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book I 

"XXXIX ...For when the sacred word has purified us with the sprinklings prepared beforehand for purification, and when it has adorned us with the select reasonings of true philosophy, and, having led us to that man who has stood the test, has made us genuine, and conspicuous, and shining,..." 

Note: Is Philo saying (“that man who has stood the test”) that the Divine Word was tested (Heb. 2:18)? If so it obviously passed the test. 

Sits beside God (Heb. 8:1) 

Philo: ABOUT NOT MOVING LANDMARKS 

"XXXVIII... I say, should such men triumph in and insult the misfortunes of others, having no respect for justice, the ruler (Note: justice/ruler) of human life, who sits by the side of the great Ruler of the universe, who surveys all things with sleepless and most piercing eyes, and sees what is in recesses as clearly as if it was in the pure sunlight?" 

The Word is a covenant (1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:4-6) 

Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book II 

"XXXIII ...God, says that he is about to erect firmly his covenant full of grace (and that means his law and his word) in the soul of the just man as on a solid foundation, which shall be an image in the likeness of God, when he says to Noah, “I will establish my covenant with Thee.” (Gen. 9:11) And besides this, he also indicates two other things, one that justice is in no respect different from the covenant of God (Note: justice/covenant), the other that other beings bestow gifts which are different from the persons who receive them;... XXXVI Since then all steadiness, and stability, and the abiding for ever in the same place unchangeably and immovably, is first of all seen in the living God, and next in the word of the living God, which he has called his covenant;..." 

The Word's sacrificial blood (Heb. 12:24) 

Philo: WHO IS THE HEIR OF DIVINE THINGS 

"XXXVIII ...Now, the craters of the sense of seeing are the eyes, those of hearing are the ears, those of smelling are the nostrils, and so on with the appropriate receptacles for each of the senses. On these craters the sacred word pours a portion of blood, thinking it right that the irrational part of us should become endowed with soul and vitality, and should in some manner become rational; following the guidance of admonition, and purifying itself from the deceitful alluring powers of the objects of the outward sense which aim to overcome it."

[Guest Br Cornelius]

The only genuinely spiritual experience I ever had was through Shamanism. Once I directly experienced the triple worlds of shamanism it helped me to understand that all of the monotheistic religions had corrupted that tangible reality into their Heaven and Hell model. At that point I started to realize that the monotheistic religions were a perversion of a reality that any person can experience directly and a block to spirituality.

I do not have a coherent explanation of what the Shamanistic reality actually is - but it is so universal a model that I accept its reality implicitly.
 

Br Cornelius

Edited February 6, 2022 by Br Cornelius

[Will Due]

12 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Maybe from a serious brain injury, or fits of dementia from advanced age.

 

Then whatever it takes will ultimately be for the good. Everyone has, or will have, their own experience in this regard.

 

 

[Will Due]

45 minutes ago, Br Cornelius said:

I started to realize that the monotheistic religions were a perversion of a reality that any person to experience directly and a block to spirituality.

 

And that's where true religion comes in.

True religion (direct experience) overcomes all religious barriers to genuine spirituality.

 

 

"True religion is the establishment of an enduring unity in human experience, a lasting peace and a profound assurance."

"True religion is the indispensable source of that higher energy which drives men to establish a superior civilization based on human brotherhood."

"True religion is the devotion of the self to the service of meaningful and supreme values."

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Will Due

[Davros of Skaro]

37 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Then whatever it takes will ultimately be for the good. Everyone has, or will have, their own experience in this regard.

Did you ever post your own experience story that led you to your truth on UM? If so where? If not, why not?

I especially want to hear how the words glitter before your eyes. Not here though. Create your own post.

 

[Will Due]

4 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Did you ever post your own experience story that led you to your truth on UM? 

 

There is no such thing as "my truth" or "your truth" and yes, I've posted my experiences many times.

"My truth" and "your truth" might be better articulated as "my experience" and "your experience" don't ya think?

Maybe I'll post more about my experiences that you've asked about later. But for now, I'm heading out the door. Have a good day Davros.

 

 

[psyche101]

8 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

And that's where true religion comes in.

True religion (direct experience) overcomes all religious barriers to genuine spirituality.

 

 

"True religion is the establishment of an enduring unity in human experience, a lasting peace and a profound assurance."

"True religion is the indispensable source of that higher energy which drives men to establish a superior civilization based on human brotherhood."

"True religion is the devotion of the self to the service of meaningful and supreme values."

 

 

 

You often make a thing of what you call true religion.

Sounds like run of the mill ordinary faith every time.

[SHaYap]

Well... To be frank, I've seen mills running a tale better than that, heck, even some Mills and Boon... 

~

[lightly]

I don’t believe in Australia.   I don’t know one person who has ever been there !     Kangaroo ?   . . Suuuuure  

[Piney]

On 2/6/2022 at 1:04 PM, Br Cornelius said:

The only genuinely spiritual experience I ever had was through Shamanism. Once I directly experienced the triple worlds of shamanism it helped me to understand that all of the monotheistic religions had corrupted that tangible reality into their Heaven and Hell model. At that point I started to realize that the monotheistic religions were a perversion of a reality that any person can experience directly and a block to spirituality.

I do not have a coherent explanation of what the Shamanistic reality actually is - but it is so universal a model that I accept its reality implicitly.
 

Br Cornelius

Because it's pantheism and has to do with using Creation's energy whether it be called Ki, Manitou, Orinda, Skan,etc.

It's also not about the "tools" used but focusing and the "power of intention". Tools such as drums, rattles, chants, circles , fetishes, etc are only focusing devices. Not powerful in themselves.

[+Desertrat56]

On 12/26/2021 at 8:21 AM, The_Phantom_Stranger said:

I personally think it is a sin to condemn the existance of Jesus walking on the earth without any evidence

Why do you use the word "condemn"?   How is it a condemnation if someone does not believe Jesus (the one in the bible) actually existed?

[Davros of Skaro]

On 3/17/2022 at 12:53 PM, Desertrat56 said:

Why do you use the word "condemn"?   How is it a condemnation if someone does not believe Jesus (the one in the bible) actually existed?

I boils down to the desires of the flesh weighs down the spirit. Without acknowledging Jesus's death, and exaltaton, then without walking (imitating) in his (he who imitates the Father) ways, the spirit will hover around the body while it rots.

Do you want to worship the flesh that comes to nothing, or the one true God that gives you a lifeline through the Intermediary Divine Word?

[+and-then]

On 1/5/2022 at 12:38 PM, XenoFish said:

God is an idea. Either a personal or cultural construct. I for one wouldn't trust some magic tricks. No matter how grand.

That's good to know.  MOST humans will love them though, wouldn't you agree?