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Pictoglyphs in Utah


CryptoGirl
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Is this real ? Why does it seem these pictographs look very much like  like Osirus?  Could the Egyptians played a role with the Natives?

Blind Frog Ranch

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Posted (edited)

There was an ancient trade route from Mexico to the north, maybe into Canada.   The europeans teaching that the natives were primitive is just ego justification for their crimes.   Close to where I live there are petroglyphs similar to a few in that video.  The ones shown at the beginning don't make sense to me, but I am not an archeologist, just have seen petroglyphs all over New Mexico along that trade route, which goes into Colorado.  There could be branches that went west or started further west that met the one through New Mexico further north.  There were lots of different groups that used those routes.

Here is a map I found and I am not sure it is very complete but it helps.

http://mapmanusa.com/cci-print-3.html

Edited by Desertrat56
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Just graffiti.

Harte

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I hike all over Arizona, and Southern Mexico looking for, and finding ancient sites. Those do not look very ancient to me. I am no expert though. But have seen plenty of them.

 

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It would be  nice to ask A Hopi or other Pueblo person whose ancestors have lived in the area for better than a thousand years about symbolism, not some yahoo who is looking for Aztec gold or  European symbols.  Read the Book of the Hopi by Frank Waters if you want another view.  Not saying he is right either. There is evidence of captive breeding of red macaws in Pueblo Bonito, how do you think they got there.  Lots of pictographs in eastern Oregon too as well as stone cairns.  I got to walk a trail across the dry scrub lands with a friend.  He had a wonderful knack for spotting flints as we walked. Our country was not a barren wilderness before Europeans.  People got around.

7 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

There was an ancient trade route from Mexico to the north, maybe into Canada.  

True, trade paths through all of the Appalachian water gaps east and west,  north and south  too and along all the great river systems we have.  Obsidian mined in Oregon has been found  around the Great Lakes and further east. For a general view pretty well based on facts  current in 2005 or so 1491 is an interesting book too for an overall view of the Americas before Europeans.  

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13 hours ago, Kenemet said:

And as a bonus question, the Aztecs never made it this far, either.  There were trade routes that included this area, so material from Mexico came up to the US through these routes and went down to Mexico via the same routes.  But trades tended to be relatively local and not the result of one caravan of traders wandering for thousands of miles through the Americas.

Extra point question for you that I have wondered about.  Do you know if traders exchange goods at boundaries between different groups' spheres of influence?  Sounds stilted but I didn't know how else to phrase it.   Friendly neighbors and allies might be safe for trading  into interior territory, but I think trade must have crossed hostile lands too.  I am curious about the mechanism.  Seems like a trader could go to a village or camp and meet another trader waiting when he gets there. going too far into another territory and encountering warriors first might lead to a short career.  Something has to keep traders safe from frequent hostile encounters  or nobody would do it. And of course trade is beneficial to both parties. Thanks in advance, insight would be appreciated.

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So I came across this discoveries in America and it goes over ocean travel and possibilities they came to America and left evidence of this, however it has been disputed as hoaxes.

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On 1/5/2022 at 12:52 PM, CryptoGirl said:

Is this real ? Why does it seem these pictographs look very much like  like Osirus?  Could the Egyptians played a role with the Natives?

Blind Frog Ranch

First, you may wish to study the distinction between pictoglyphs  and petroglyphs:

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/pictographs-and-petroglyphs

Then you may wish to study such aspects as weathering, patination, and mineral deposition.

Short  version: As noted by Harte, modern fakes.

.

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1 hour ago, CryptoGirl said:

So I came across this discoveries in America and it goes over ocean travel and possibilities they came to America and left evidence of this, however it has been disputed as hoaxes.

It may be to your benefit to upgrade your information resources. Such topics as the "cocaine mummies", "Egyptians in the Grand Canyon", and the "Gosford Glyphs" have long ago been debunked. If you conduct a few searches of these pages, you will find useful information.

.

 

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3 hours ago, CryptoGirl said:

So I came across this discoveries in America and it goes over ocean travel and possibilities they came to America and left evidence of this, however it has been disputed as hoaxes.

They are indeed hoaxes.  The Egyptians (as many others can confirm) were poor sailors, leaving the big voyages to the Phoenicians and the mummies were formerly owned by wealthy Victorians who indeed smoked around them and smoked opium around them (it wasn't illegal back then.)

And they know who started the Gosford Glyphs.  The area was well-known and had NO hieroglyphs until some guy showed up to peck them out.  Others showed up after the news got out and added their own "hieroglyphs."  While a few tried to copy textbook hieroglyphs and phrases, most of what's there is touristy gibberish by people who don't understand or read hieroglyphs.

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5 hours ago, Swede said:

First, you may wish to study the distinction between pictoglyphs  and petroglyphs:

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/pictographs-and-petroglyphs

Then you may wish to study such aspects as weathering, patination, and mineral deposition.

Short  version: As noted by Harte, modern fakes.

.

Got it ! My title is than wrong it should be petroglyphs.

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5 hours ago, Swede said:

It may be to your benefit to upgrade your information resources. Such topics as the "cocaine mummies", "Egyptians in the Grand Canyon", and the "Gosford Glyphs" have long ago been debunked. If you conduct a few searches of these pages, you will find useful information.

.

 

Thank you for the leads.

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3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

They are indeed hoaxes.  The Egyptians (as many others can confirm) were poor sailors, leaving the big voyages to the Phoenicians and the mummies were formerly owned by wealthy Victorians who indeed smoked around them and smoked opium around them (it wasn't illegal back then.)

And they know who started the Gosford Glyphs.  The area was well-known and had NO hieroglyphs until some guy showed up to peck them out.  Others showed up after the news got out and added their own "hieroglyphs."  While a few tried to copy textbook hieroglyphs and phrases, most of what's there is touristy gibberish by people who don't understand or read hieroglyphs.

I did remember watching something on mummies found with tobacco leaves and felt that proved they had been to America. It makes sense if the mummies were tainted by smokers.

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On 1/5/2022 at 11:03 AM, Desertrat56 said:

There was an ancient trade route from Mexico to the north, maybe into Canada.   The europeans teaching that the natives were primitive is just ego justification for their crimes.   Close to where I live there are petroglyphs similar to a few in that video.  The ones shown at the beginning don't make sense to me, but I am not an archeologist, just have seen petroglyphs all over New Mexico along that trade route, which goes into Colorado.  There could be branches that went west or started further west that met the one through New Mexico further north.  There were lots of different groups that used those routes.

Here is a map I found and I am not sure it is very complete but it helps.

http://mapmanusa.com/cci-print-3.html

I'm sorry but I can hardly read to days maps so probably wouldn't do me much good. The reason why felt the petroglyphs could be Egyptians is because of on the t.v. series they panned over these really well. This short clip really doesn't do justice from the link I shared, but people have to watch out for copy right issues since its still on demand for buyers. Here is what stands out. I noticed this bird on the far right side but it looks to be very weathered down. Than I noticed the family pic with the son and thought Horius and it panned back to this man figure with what they thought looked like horns and was looking more to me like not horns but the head dresses like Osirius. The thick necklace across the chest make me think Egyptian. The Blind Frog Ranch thought it could be Azteca because they felt they had ran and hid in Utah to protect their gold. Later on they had no need for it and these guys gave it to a man who suddenly becomes rich with gold for food. This made no sense to me because if they where killed protecting gold then they had the sense of what it was worth to them and running to hide why would they later on after going through the trouble just hand it over? 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, CryptoGirl said:

I'm sorry but I can hardly read to days maps so probably wouldn't do me much good. The reason why felt the petroglyphs could be Egyptians is because of on the t.v. series they panned over these really well. This short clip really doesn't do justice from the link I shared, but people have to watch out for copy right issues since its still on demand for buyers. Here is what stands out. I noticed this bird on the far right side but it looks to be very weathered down. Than I noticed the family pic with the son and thought Horius and it panned back to this man figure with what they thought looked like horns and was looking more to me like not horns but the head dresses like Osirius. The thick necklace across the chest make me think Egyptian. The Blind Frog Ranch thought it could be Azteca because they felt they had ran and hid in Utah to protect their gold. Later on they had no need for it and these guys gave it to a man who suddenly becomes rich with gold for food. This made no sense to me because if they where killed protecting gold then they had the sense of what it was worth to them and running to hide why would they later on after going through the trouble just hand it over? 

I don't think egyptians were in the americas.  I know some of the petroglyphs resemble others around the world but we don't know why that is.   If you ever see a photo of Geronimo you might notice that he wore a turban similar to the middle easterners, however it is a practical headpeice for any desert, it doesn't mean that any one from the middle east founded the tribe he was from in the Americas.   People think alike even when they have never met.  Certain things are common in all groups of people.  Most television shows sensationalize things and don't give the full story, just some twisted piece of it to convey what ever agenda the creator of the television show wants.

Edited by Desertrat56
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1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

I don't think egyptians were in the americas.  I know some of the petroglyphs resemble others around the world but we don't know why that is.   If you ever see a photo of Geronimo you might notice that he wore a turban similar to the middle easterners, however it is a practical headpeice for any desert, it doesn't mean that any one from the middle east founded the tribe he was from in the Americas.   People think alike even when they have never met.  Certain things are common in all groups of people.  Most television shows sensationalize things and don't give the full story, just some twisted piece of it to convey what ever agenda the creator of the television show wants.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they find out the Azteca really didn't have that much gold? They were killed for fools gold right, found out things were only coated in a thin layer of it and the rest wasn't even gold.

I know that petroglyphs are very much a like in different cultures like the bird. It looked like a falcon but others probably held them in high reguards too.

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41 minutes ago, CryptoGirl said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they find out the Azteca really didn't have that much gold? They were killed for fools gold right, found out things were only coated in a thin layer of it and the rest wasn't even gold.

I know that petroglyphs are very much a like in different cultures like the bird. It looked like a falcon but others probably held them in high reguards too.

The Spaniards killed the natives for all kinds of reasons.   The story you mention is most likely not true.   Here is a wiki page with some history of the Aztecs, though it is not thorough.  If you could find archeology books written by natives you would get better information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztecs

There were some crazy Spaniards that did some searching for mythical places of gold.  The most infamous was Don Juan Onate, who was given the job of colonizing the Santa Fe area, but on his way from Mexico City area he killed and maimed so many natives and even the colonists, that they were not safe and once they were settled he took off with all his soldiers to hunt for the same gold Cortez was looking for earlier.   When he came back to Santa Fe 9 months later the colonists were gone.  As soon as he left they packed up and went back to Mexico city.   He was jailed for a while and all his property was seized by the Spanish government for his crimes, then a few years later one of his relatives became governor of Mexico and gave it all back.   There is all kinds of history that is not in the history books in the U.S.   

It boils down to the Aztecs being killed for control of the area by the Spaniards who wanted to use it for their own purposes, not for gold.   Gold was just a red herring and a lie that was used to misrepresent the actions of historical figures.   By the time the Aztecs were controlled and almost wiped out the Pope had sent his warrior priests to enlarge the roman empire.

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16 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

The Spaniards killed the natives for all kinds of reasons.   The story you mention is most likely not true.   Here is a wiki page with some history of the Aztecs, though it is not thorough.  If you could find archeology books written by natives you would get better information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztecs

There were some crazy Spaniards that did some searching for mythical places of gold.  The most infamous was Don Juan Onate, who was given the job of colonizing the Santa Fe area, but on his way from Mexico City area he killed and maimed so many natives and even the colonists, that they were not safe and once they were settled he took off with all his soldiers to hunt for the same gold Cortez was looking for earlier.   When he came back to Santa Fe 9 months later the colonists were gone.  As soon as he left they packed up and went back to Mexico city.   He was jailed for a while and all his property was seized by the Spanish government for his crimes, then a few years later one of his relatives became governor of Mexico and gave it all back.   There is all kinds of history that is not in the history books in the U.S.   

It boils down to the Aztecs being killed for control of the area by the Spaniards who wanted to use it for their own purposes, not for gold.   Gold was just a red herring and a lie that was used to misrepresent the actions of historical figures.   By the time the Aztecs were controlled and almost wiped out the Pope had sent his warrior priests to enlarge the roman empire.

Yeah I was told not to trust wiki's information and that is from people still alive to argue about it lol.

I have a hard time believing they wouldn't be killed for gold since that would give the edge of feeding power, but I get it could of been for territory and control as well. Maybe some even ran to the Olmac and lived beside Mayans. I've read things about the Mayans even possibly being influenced by the Egyptians. Perhaps Egyptians were helped by other sea fairing people using sun dials.

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Posted (edited)

I like these kind of shows, but this one feels way more fake to me than the rest. Way too many coincidences and "lucky finds", and the people just feel like they are acting. And the "energy zone" BS just made me laugh.

I still watch it but I don't take it seriously.

Edited by moonman
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, CryptoGirl said:

Yeah I was told not to trust wiki's information and that is from people still alive to argue about it lol.

I have a hard time believing they wouldn't be killed for gold since that would give the edge of feeding power, but I get it could of been for territory and control as well. Maybe some even ran to the Olmac and lived beside Mayans. I've read things about the Mayans even possibly being influenced by the Egyptians. Perhaps Egyptians were helped by other sea fairing people using sun dials.

The Mayans were not influenced by the Egyptians.   And they were targeted by the popes warrior priests specifically because they had books, and they had a very sophisticated society.   Their solar calendar is what we use today because Pope Greg the 14th saw that it solved the problems the Romans never could figure out of having to reset the days of the calendar every few years.   That is why the Gregorian calendar has a leap year where Feb has an extra day.   The extra day was chosen randomly.  The Mayans used a day in the summer every four years to synch the solar calendar as the earth revolves around the sun approximately 364.2... days per the 4 seasons that we call a year.  

There was not as much gold as you have been led to believe.  The Aztecs used it in their ceremonial items, but they did not have piles of it and the Spaniards  did not travel all that way just for gold.

Edited by Desertrat56
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5 hours ago, CryptoGirl said:

Yeah I was told not to trust wiki's information and that is from people still alive to argue about it lol.

I have a hard time believing they wouldn't be killed for gold since that would give the edge of feeding power, but I get it could of been for territory and control as well. Maybe some even ran to the Olmac and lived beside Mayans. I've read things about the Mayans even possibly being influenced by the Egyptians. Perhaps Egyptians were helped by other sea fairing people using sun dials.

You should trust Wikipedia far more than any hokey source telling you Egyptians ever came to North or South America. 

Wikipedia at least has footnotes and sources. 

—Jaylemurph

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On 1/7/2022 at 10:26 AM, CryptoGirl said:

I'm sorry but I can hardly read to days maps so probably wouldn't do me much good. The reason why felt the petroglyphs could be Egyptians is because of on the t.v. series they panned over these really well. This short clip really doesn't do justice from the link I shared, but people have to watch out for copy right issues since its still on demand for buyers. Here is what stands out. I noticed this bird on the far right side but it looks to be very weathered down. Than I noticed the family pic with the son and thought Horius and it panned back to this man figure with what they thought looked like horns and was looking more to me like not horns but the head dresses like Osirius. The thick necklace across the chest make me think Egyptian. The Blind Frog Ranch thought it could be Azteca because they felt they had ran and hid in Utah to protect their gold. Later on they had no need for it and these guys gave it to a man who suddenly becomes rich with gold for food. This made no sense to me because if they where killed protecting gold then they had the sense of what it was worth to them and running to hide why would they later on after going through the trouble just hand it over? 

They really aren't Egyptian --the people of the Fremont culture apparently wore skirt-like clothing.  You can see that in several rock art panels like this one:
8684751514_f5fec37641_z.jpg

What's interesting here is that there are THREE distinct types of images done at three different times (you can tell by the color of the rock.) So... the oldest seems to be the middle one on the darker rock.  These figures wear skirts, have short arms, stick-legs with feet and toes (look carefully) and may carry accessories or have things on their chests. The big distinction is that the head is formed by two parallel lines.

Now, once you've seen that, look at the figure on the far left.  it's a bit younger (or seems to be) with legs formed from TWO lines, no feet, necklace that's been "pecked" into the rock as a bunch of dots and a basket/bowl shaped row of dots on top of its head.

The third on the right shows figures, one of which carries a bow.  I know this is the youngest group because bows didn't show up in the Americas until after 200 AD https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23776046/  (not a typo)  Here we have a solid head outlined by a square, a "mass" that's a necklace, and they wear skirts.  The most complete figure there maybe wearing ornaments at the knees.

So.... now look at rock art with different eyes.  The darker/more faded the lines, the older it is.  The brighter the lines, the fresher it is.  Cultures have strong preferences about how their people are shown.  Look for differences in head shapes, body shapes, and decoration.

These are real Egyptian petroglyphs (the outlines were placed there because the art is so faint... the images are over 5,000 years old)
wadi-ameyra-6%252C+public+domain%252C+or

See the difference?

Now (quiz time!)

What can you deduce about THIS photo (which is from North America)?  Can you tell how old it is (the clue is there in the picture)? 

Petroglyphs-newspaper-rock-ThinkstockPho

 

...and all of that is to day that although rock art looks similar, when you get fascinated by it and study it, you quickly find out how much it varies from time to time and culture to culture...and how distinct it is.

 

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23 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

They really aren't Egyptian --the people of the Fremont culture apparently wore skirt-like clothing.  You can see that in several rock art panels like this one:

Today, Lakota  Sun Dancers still wear  skirts for the 4 day ceremony.   Usually red, at least the ones I have seen.  

I see a horse and a mounted archer in your last example. post 1540 by a couple of decades?

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