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Ghosts


docyabut2
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1 hour ago, Grey Area said:

I am quite proudly not part of the woo crowd.

Whatever the ghost phenomenon is, I can’t dismiss it outright for the simple dark-matter comparison.

But I do understand the reaction to the ‘making stuff up’ part of more extreme explanations 

Can you define dark matter in your understand or the way you are using it?   It makes no sense to me how you are using that term.

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56 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Can you define dark matter in your understand or the way you are using it?   It makes no sense to me how you are using that term.

Sigh, it should be reasonably evident if you read through, but I’ll summarise.

Xeno made a dismissive comment about ghosts, being able to observe the effects, but not the actual object.

Dark Matter is exactly the same, you can observe the effects on the environment, but not the actual matter.

Im not saying the two are the same, nor am I suggesting ghosts are the souls of the dead, but that if mainstream science can accept the existence of an undetectable phenomenon, perhaps we should not be so quick to dismiss ghosts. 

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5 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Sigh, it should be reasonably evident if you read through, but I’ll summarise.

Xeno made a dismissive comment about ghosts, being able to observe the effects, but not the actual object.

Dark Matter is exactly the same, you can observe the effects on the environment, but not the actual matter.

Im not saying the two are the same, nor am I suggesting ghosts are the souls of the dead, but that if mainstream science can accept the existence of an undetectable phenomenon, perhaps we should not be so quick to dismiss ghosts. 

Do you have some reason you think dark matter happens on earth are or you just pointing out that there is a phenomena that we have observed the effects but cannot observe as a thing and using that as an example of why ghosts could be an effect of some thing we cannot perceive?

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3 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Not believing that answer.

Do you think ghosts have ever mislead a person to believe something not true? why would they do this?

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13 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Do you have some reason you think dark matter happens on earth

This isn’t a dark matter topic, it wasn’t my intention to get anyone hung up on the matter.  I think that given the current calculations of the sheer amount of the stuff it would be a safe assumption that there exists at least trace amounts.  But clearly that would be difficult to confirm, it has been theorised that some  24 trillion tons of dark matter exist between the earth and the moon.

30 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

or you just pointing out that there is a phenomena that we have observed the effects but cannot observe as a thing and using that as an example of why ghosts could be an effect of some thing we cannot perceive?

I don’t think I can make it any clearer than I have already

37 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Im not saying the two are the same, nor am I suggesting ghosts are the souls of the dead, but that if mainstream science can accept the existence of an undetectable phenomenon, perhaps we should not be so quick to dismiss ghosts. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

This isn’t a dark matter topic, it wasn’t my intention to get anyone hung up on the matter.  I think that given the current calculations of the sheer amount of the stuff it would be a safe assumption that there exists at least trace amounts.  But clearly that would be difficult to confirm, it has been theorised that some  24 trillion tons of dark matter exist between the earth and the moon.

I don’t think I can make it any clearer than I have already 

So is that a "yes" to my question - "or you just pointing out that there is a phenomena that we have observed the effects but cannot observe as a thing and using that as an example of why ghosts could be an effect of some thing we cannot perceive?"

You really did not make it clear and that is why I asked.  

Edited by Desertrat56
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https://www.space.com/20930-dark-matter.html

Roughly 80% of the mass of the universe is made up of material that scientists cannot directly observe. Known as dark matter, this bizarre ingredient does not emit light or energy. 

https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy

More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the universe.

Grey Area is not saying that ghost are made up of dark matter/energy. It's more of similarity to ghost I suppose. Since ghost are apparently undetectable or poorly detectable with our current equipment. 

My comment is how those who believe in woo, would defend their belief with something science-y. Like how they add quantum to stuff, etc. 

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It is much easier to understand the ghost are a purely psychological phenomena. The very thought of a place being haunt (even in the slightest) can shape a person's perception. That annoying cold breeze because a ghost trying to manifest. Old stair that creak, become footsteps. Half awake/sleep visions are shadow people/spirits/demons/etc. 

Which I find to be more interesting. 

In a sense expectation does shape our perception of reality. A haunted house has a 'mood' to it. Because some may think it is haunted. Even if the story is a complete fabrication. Ghost have a memetic nature. Think about how many ghost thread we have throughout the year and then the cluster that starts on October. Even better when some ghost movie comes out. 

We had a lot of haunted doll and ouija board threads when movies of similar topic were out. 

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2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

You really did not make it clear and that is why I asked. 

Okay, sorry, my answer is Yes?  I think.  Maybe No.  what was the question?  There were a couple there I think.

 

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1 minute ago, Grey Area said:

Okay, sorry, my answer is Yes?  I think.  Maybe No.  what was the question?  There were a couple there I think.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

or you just pointing out that there is a phenomena that we have observed the effects but cannot observe as a thing and using that as an example of why ghosts could be an effect of some thing we cannot perceive?

for the 3rd time I repeat the question.   

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1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

for the 3rd time I repeat the question.

Maybe :whistle:

Yes, that was what I was suggesting.  Why accept one undetectable phenomenon and discount the other?

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13 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Why accept one undetectable phenomenon and discount the other?

Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a thread I created. A thread that I made for the sole purpose of giving realistic explanations for ghost. Which means it is easy to dismiss them as something none paranormal. 

Post #3

Edited by XenoFish
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22 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It is much easier to understand the ghost are a purely psychological phenomena. The very thought of a place being haunt (even in the slightest) can shape a person's perception. That annoying cold breeze because a ghost trying to manifest. Old stair that creak, become footsteps. Half awake/sleep visions are shadow people/spirits/demons/etc.

I think in many cases, that is correct, and we quite often see what we want to see.

The reason I don’t dismiss the ghost phenomenon out of hand is because of a very real energetic experience I had with a girlfriend in the early 2000’s.

So we were going to bed (no funny business we were knackered) about 11 o’clock.  After about 5 minutes I got up as I heard a noise downstairs, sounded like cans crashing on the floor.  I investigate and find nothing, on my way back up the stairs the landing light flickers dims and ceases to work.

As I get back into bed my girlfriend asks me why I was banging on the ceiling?  I wasn’t and tell her so, and start to think that’s really strange.

Soon after this in the corner of the room, for about 2 hours the big double wardrobe shakes visibly and audibly.

I am ashamed to say both me and my girlfriend were so scared witless we were frozen solid in bed.  If I had a time machine I would go back and give myself a slap, tell me to grow a pair and investigate.

Thing is, I have no idea how any of that happened.  It wasn’t a hallucination, there was no explanation for the sounds I heard downstairs, we were sober.  There was nothing inside the wardrobe that would cause it shake and it was against a brick wall which had an entryway on the other side.  Something unseen had a real effect on a single light and had enough energy to shake a heavy object consistently for over an hour.

I don’t believe it was the dead, but it was definitely something real.

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21 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Which means it is easy to dismiss them as something none paranormal. 

I have no doubt that the phenomenon has a worldly explanation… I would love to know what that explanation is, beyond reasonable doubt.

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21 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Soon after this in the corner of the room, for about 2 hours the big double wardrobe shakes visibly and audibly.

Hi Grey

Just curious, was it only the wardrobe that was shaking or could you feel a vibration on the bed or floor? I ask because sometime road crews work at night and heavy equipment can cause vibrations even a couple of blocks away given certain soil conditions. I grew up across the road from the CP mainline and we had a truck route on our street and the house would shake when trains or trucks passed by until I tore out the old cindercrete block basement walls and put in 20 piles and concrete walls then there was no more shaking when trains or trucks passed by.

Edited by jmccr8
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16 hours ago, Grey Area said:

Now I am unsure how happy I am with classical, intelligent description of a ghost, but there is another phenomenon well known and accepted that matches the description you just gave:  Dark Matter.

It too has an observable effect on the universe, but remains tantalisingly unmeasurable and mysterious.

 

It's very measurable.

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6 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

So was I. We consider collections of anecdotes all the time to better understand the real world.

Papageorgeland isn't in the real world. 

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57 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Maybe :whistle:

Yes, that was what I was suggesting.  Why accept one undetectable phenomenon and discount the other?

If it's undetectable,how did we detect it? 

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23 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

I have no doubt that the phenomenon has a worldly explanation… I would love to know what that explanation is, beyond reasonable doubt.

There won't be one answer. 

Most unexplained phenomena are. Like UFOs. No one answer can possibly cover every personal situation.

That's where traditional superstition based ideology fails. It's looking for one answer. 

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1 hour ago, Grey Area said:

Maybe :whistle:

Yes, that was what I was suggesting.  Why accept one undetectable phenomenon and discount the other?

Ok then, I understand that.

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47 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

I have no doubt that the phenomenon has a worldly explanation… I would love to know what that explanation is, beyond reasonable doubt.

Could it have been an earthquake (3.0 or less)?

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3 hours ago, trevor borocz johnson said:

Do you think ghosts have ever mislead a person to believe something not true? why would they do this?

Yes, I think that can happen. Entities can be in a negative state and can do negative things.

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1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Papageorgeland isn't in the real world. 

Let's grow up psyche and have some substantive discussions in this thread.

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1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

Let's grow up psyche and have some substantive discussions in this thread.

You first.

 

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1 hour ago, Grey Area said:

I think in many cases, that is correct, and we quite often see what we want to see.

The reason I don’t dismiss the ghost phenomenon out of hand is because of a very real energetic experience I had with a girlfriend in the early 2000’s.

So we were going to bed (no funny business we were knackered) about 11 o’clock.  After about 5 minutes I got up as I heard a noise downstairs, sounded like cans crashing on the floor.  I investigate and find nothing, on my way back up the stairs the landing light flickers dims and ceases to work.

As I get back into bed my girlfriend asks me why I was banging on the ceiling?  I wasn’t and tell her so, and start to think that’s really strange.

Soon after this in the corner of the room, for about 2 hours the big double wardrobe shakes visibly and audibly.

I am ashamed to say both me and my girlfriend were so scared witless we were frozen solid in bed.  If I had a time machine I would go back and give myself a slap, tell me to grow a pair and investigate.

Thing is, I have no idea how any of that happened.  It wasn’t a hallucination, there was no explanation for the sounds I heard downstairs, we were sober.  There was nothing inside the wardrobe that would cause it shake and it was against a brick wall which had an entryway on the other side.  Something unseen had a real effect on a single light and had enough energy to shake a heavy object consistently for over an hour.

I don’t believe it was the dead, but it was definitely something real.

I spent years evoking spirits. Practicing magick. I came to the conclusion they were just a head trip years ago. I held out from completely dismissing them until about 2 maybe 3 years ago. I just gave up hope. There was nothing unusual outside of a perceptional shift to me. Just because you (used indirectly) can't explain it, doesn't mean it is real. After enough time and honest research you get left with just a hope and that hope is just a wish that'll never be fulfilled. I just got tired. Too many explanations for things like the ouija board, seeing ghost (which can be a sign of mental illness, mental exhaustion, self-delusion, self induced visual/audiotory/tactile hallucination. Even the whole experience once recounted can be completely false. Pretty much kills the 'magic' in everything. 

I don't know. I just lost hope. Dead is dead. I'll never see those I loved again. No heaven, no hell. Just nothing. No ghost or gods. 

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