Nato vs. Russia: Who would win a war?

[Eldorado]

Research published in 2019 by the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) found that British forces would be “comprehensively outgunned” in any conflict with Russia in Eastern Europe. 

The RUSI found that the British Army and its Nato allies have a “critical shortage” of artillery and ammunition, meaning they would struggle to maintain a credible defence position if Russia were to opt for all-out aggression.

“At present, there is a risk that the UK – unable to credibly fight – can be dominated lower down the escalation ladder by powers threatening escalation,” said RUSI’s report.

But the UK wouldn’t need to stand alone against Russia. And Nato’s biggest player, the US, has an overwhelming advantage over Russia in conventional forces, Russian military analyst Aleksandr Golts told Deutsche Welle.

MSN

[L.A.T.1961]

It would be deciding to engage, rather than military resources, that would determine the outcome. 

Russia normally defaults to reminding folks its a nuclear power, which is not a credible argument.

If Russia needs to use them they have already lost.

[+and-then]

41 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

If Russia needs to use them they we have ALL, already lost.

Pardon my editing.  The real question is what you first said.  That's why having a truly senile old man in the most powerful office in the world simply creates a danger for us all.  Weak, timid men in such positions of power are an open enticement to miscalculation by other men who see themselves as strong and capable.  In a way, it would be fitting if a simple miscalculation, based on human ego, was what caused the end of our civilization.

[Setton]

15 minutes ago, and then said:

Pardon my editing.  The real question is what you first said.  That's why having a truly senile old man in the most powerful office in the world simply creates a danger for us all.  Weak, timid men in such positions of power are an open enticement to miscalculation by other men who see themselves as strong and capable.  In a way, it would be fitting if a simple miscalculation, based on human ego, was what caused the end of our civilization.

God, can you imagine if you added onto that that he had absolutely no experience of diplomacy, politics or international relations.

Perish the thought.

[Helen of Annoy]

12 minutes ago, and then said:

 That's why having a truly senile old man in the most powerful office in the world simply creates a danger for us all.  Weak, timid men in such positions of power are an open enticement to miscalculation by other men who see themselves as strong and capable.  

And that's exactly why Trump was such a disaster. 

So stop projecting Trump's faults on the current guy in the office. It doesn't matter who's your president, as long as it's not literal Russian asset. 

 

And there will be no end of civilization, you drama queen. And even if there will be, you can't stop it with any amount of kissing Putin's ass. 

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, Eldorado said:

Research published in 2019 by the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) found that British forces would be “comprehensively outgunned” in any conflict with Russia in Eastern Europe. 

The RUSI found that the British Army and its Nato allies have a “critical shortage” of artillery and ammunition, meaning they would struggle to maintain a credible defence position if Russia were to opt for all-out aggression.

“At present, there is a risk that the UK – unable to credibly fight – can be dominated lower down the escalation ladder by powers threatening escalation,” said RUSI’s report.

But the UK wouldn’t need to stand alone against Russia. And Nato’s biggest player, the US, has an overwhelming advantage over Russia in conventional forces, Russian military analyst Aleksandr Golts told Deutsche Welle.

MSN

My country (the UK) has never maintained a large standing army because we dont have land borders to defend. We raise our army when a conflict occurs. But regardless of this, the UK and Russia will not end up fighting. Us Brits are not going to put ourselves through nuclear war to save another country.

What will happen if Russia invades is NATO will grab half, Russia will grab half, and there will be a standoff in between as neither side is prepared to cause the end of the world.

[+and-then]

12 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

And that's exactly why Trump was such a disaster. 

So stop projecting Trump's faults on the current guy in the office. It doesn't matter who's your president, as long as it's not literal Russian asset. 

 

And there will be no end of civilization, you drama queen. And even if there will be, you can't stop it with any amount of kissing Putin's ass. 

Aunty, sometimes I get the impression that you REALLY don't like me.    I'm not the one who obsesses over Vladimir Vladimirovich.  He's just another thug in a world full of them, with the single exception that he does have the power to create one hell of a lot of damage.  Maybe even more than an angry Croatian female

Biden has bent over backwards to accommodate Putin.  Why do you not consider him to be a Putin puppet?  Trump's out of power for nearly a year and continuing to spew hate just makes you look petty.  Finally, ANYONE who is making excuses for that geriatric basket-case after all of the damage he has caused, is someone who is more interested in the fall of America than in her safety or prosperity.  The man is a massive failure by ANY meaningful metric and his polling proves that sentiment to be very widely held.  Now, I'll let you get back to your Trump doll.  Are you sure you won't need anymore voodoo pins?  

[thedutchiedutch]

1 hour ago, and then said:

Pardon my editing.  The real question is what you first said.  That's why having a truly senile old man in the most powerful office in the world simply creates a danger for us all.  Weak, timid men in such positions of power are an open enticement to miscalculation by other men who see themselves as strong and capable.  In a way, it would be fitting if a simple miscalculation, based on human ego, was what caused the end of our civilization.

I am laughing because I remember people being like very concerned and some of them paranoid about the same thing with the previous president.   

Edited January 17, 2022 by thedutchiedutch

[Duke Wellington]

22 minutes ago, and then said:

Aunty, sometimes I get the impression that you REALLY don't like me.    I'm not the one who obsesses over Vladimir Vladimirovich.  He's just another thug in a world full of them, with the single exception that he does have the power to create one hell of a lot of damage.  Maybe even more than an angry Croatian female

Biden has bent over backwards to accommodate Putin.  Why do you not consider him to be a Putin puppet?  Trump's out of power for nearly a year and continuing to spew hate just makes you look petty.  Finally, ANYONE who is making excuses for that geriatric basket-case after all of the damage he has caused, is someone who is more interested in the fall of America than in her safety or prosperity.  The man is a massive failure by ANY meaningful metric and his polling proves that sentiment to be very widely held.  Now, I'll let you get back to your Trump doll.  Are you sure you won't need anymore voodoo pins?  

A year in and Biden has made numerous bad decisions.

He has problems coming in this years elections, I suspect his party will force him out. 52% of Americans disapprove of him which means its not just the right, its the independents too.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Cookie Monster

[Helen of Annoy]

29 minutes ago, and then said:

Aunty, sometimes I get the impression that you REALLY don't like me.    I'm not the one who obsesses over Vladimir Vladimirovich.  He's just another thug in a world full of them, with the single exception that he does have the power to create one hell of a lot of damage.  Maybe even more than an angry Croatian female

So be afraid. Crawl. Like it could help you live any longer if the **** hits the fan  

I won't. Being an angry Croatian female, I've got no ****s left to give. 

 

(I actually like you. You're a good man in your essence, it's not your fault you've been brainwashed by rather psychopath ideology.)

 

29 minutes ago, and then said:

Biden has bent over backwards to accommodate Putin.  Why do you not consider him to be a Putin puppet?  Trump's out of power for nearly a year and continuing to spew hate just makes you look petty.  Finally, ANYONE who is making excuses for that geriatric basket-case after all of the damage he has caused, is someone who is more interested in the fall of America than in her safety or prosperity.  The man is a massive failure by ANY meaningful metric and his polling proves that sentiment to be very widely held.  Now, I'll let you get back to your Trump doll.  Are you sure you won't need anymore voodoo pins?  

Biden did no such thing. He's experienced diplomat and so he does what is proven to be the wises course: try lowering the tensions. As long as the situation allows that. If you were reading actual news, instead of hardly hidden Russian propaganda, you'd notice the time of lowering tensions is over and serious warnings were issued.  

Also, I'll repeat: it's irrelevant who is American president, as long as it's a person loyal to their own country. Biden might even be senile, who cares, so was Reagan, as long as administration is functional, the president may be a literal sack of turnip in a suit.

Trump had no administration. He had a traveling circus.  

The reason why everyone sane will keep bringing Trump on is that such monumental cretinism is what helped cause the current situation. If you had a sack of turnip instead of Trump, the damage would be negligible. But you had Trump. Who wanted to dismantle NATO and who showed to the world - sadly, to Putin too - just how deep are divisions in your society. Not to digress. 

 

To sum it up: your political option thinks Putin is your ally (he's not, he thinks you are morons for trusting him), if the **** hits the fan at least you'll be neck deep in ****, serve you right.  

And if the **** hits the fan, it will become obvious Russia can't withstand the strain of actual war. Not to waste time re-explaining how dependent on EU they are or how little it takes for their domestic situation to escalate. Also, cold wars are good for business and cementing power, hot wars are not. 

Which is why there shouldn't be any war, albeit the septic tank is full and it's about time it's finally either cleaned, either blown up.  

[Duke Wellington]

There is nothing like diplomatic skill that going against all your friends and allies by pulling your forces out of a war, and not even telling them beforehand lol.

[quiXilver]

everyone loses.

[Helen of Annoy]

16 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

There is nothing like diplomatic skill that going against all your friends and allies by pulling your forces out of a war, and not even telling them beforehand lol.

Yes, Trump abandoned Kurds, to make room for Russians in Syria, but that's not strict topic here.  

Neither is planned withdrawal from Afghanistan, which Trump started and Biden finished, and everyone except apparently you knew about. 

Stay on topic, sunshine, which is actually a game: How to spot a Russian asset. Easily. They're loudly surrendering even before the actual war had started     

 

No one sane wants a war. Ever. Anywhere. 

But appeasing bullies is not how wars are avoided, it's how wars are lost. As history keeps showing and morons keep not learning. 

 

Oh, one more thing: Trumpers, Putin is not your ally. You're his useful idiots. If you can't stop being idiots, at least you could stop being useful for the adversary and be useful for your own country. You know, that place you claim to love so abnormally. You can achieve that with this weird trick - do not parrot Russian propaganda points. 

[Myles]

Everyone loses.  Having Idiot biden leading us in a war is a scary thing. 

[L.A.T.1961]

UK sending anti-tank weapons to Ukraine.

Decision was taken because of ‘the increasingly threatening behavior from Russia.’

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-anti-tank-missiles-ukraine/

 

As I said above the problem is the probability of engaging the Russians if they take aggressive action. Russia thinks there are few in Europe who would make a stand.

This is a poor negotiating place to start from.  

 

When Russia invades, Europe will appease.

https://reaction.life/when-russia-invades-europe-will-appease/ 

[Duke Wellington]

The Russians are in a strategic pickle.

Firstly they had to save their naval base which is their only access to the Middle East. Done by seizing Crimea. Now its got to deal with NATO building ABM silos close to its western border.

If it does nothing its ICBMs are effectively neutralised except the odd one that makes it through. Its only options are to remove the ABM silos (invasion of Eastern Europe), or to move them further east, or develop new missiles that can cope with close by ABMs, or hope if they scream loud enough NATO will adopt a less aggressive strategy and move the ABM silos west a few hundred kilometres.

Good diplomacy is about giving your opponent a way out instead of pressing their backs to the wall. Otherwise there is no way for them to resolve the dispute, and it risks conflict. When it comes to land armies the Russians are the strongest in the world. The Americans only have dominance in air and navy. Not that the US will go to war with Russia as thats just MAD.

The move by NATO is largely caused by Russia building hypersonic ICBMs. If we dont get the ABMs right up to their garden wall then those hypersonic missiles will be in orbit stopping us knocking them out. Both sides need to take a chill pill as things are starting to get hot. How both sides work their way out of this predicament I dont know.

[+and-then]

8 hours ago, thedutchiedutch said:

I am laughing because I remember people being like very concerned and some of them paranoid about the same thing with the previous president.   

Oh yeah, I recall.  The difference is that the reaction to him was all about mindless hate.  He was/is brash and offensive but he never ducked answering the media and he never stumbled and bumbled his way through every speech.  It doesn't matter who on the Left are willing to have him there just because he doesn't do mean tweets.  Anyone who sits through ANY public speaking engagement of his and STILL thinks he's better than Trump, is just someone who is so full of hate that they'd literally be willing to risk losing everything to satisfy that desire to punish the Bad Orange Man.  

I'll give his team high marks in just one decision.  When they put the hyena in as his veep, they GUARANTEED that he'd never be removed through Impeachment or even the 25th amendment.  

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

China would win, everyone else would lose. 

[qxcontinuum]

America is weak, singled out, consumed by its internal strugles and poor tactics which enfuriated in time even its closest allies. It's roar is no longer what it used to be. Even the strongest Lion can be killed by 3 hyenas: Iran, China and Russia alied. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by qxcontinuum

[+and-then]

On 1/17/2022 at 11:21 AM, Helen of Annoy said:

And even if there will be, you can't stop it with any amount of kissing Putin's ass.

You mean... like THIS?

This is my definition of "miscalculation".  In fact, it's far more shocking and egregious than even I, expected of the Turnip-in-Chief.  Whether Vlad will answer the seeming invitation remains to be seen.  Between this and the Nordstream retreat from the days of the "Orange Idiot", I'd say those who still think Biden's actions are stronger against Putin, are either deluded or impossibly biased.  Either way, the facts do not support that contention any longer, IF they ever did.  

[+and-then]

On 1/17/2022 at 9:41 PM, qxcontinuum said:

America is weak, singled out, consumed by its internal strugles and poor tactics which enfuriated in time even its closest allies. It's roar is no longer what it used to be. Even the strongest Lion can be killed by 3 hyenas: Iran, China and Russia alied. 

You seem to be assuming that if we were facing existential threats, we'd refrain from taking existential measures against our enemies.  Sadly, I think that is entirely possible if Biden or his handlers are faced with the situation.  The greatest military on the planet is useless without a will to employ it though...

[Tatetopa]

8 minutes ago, and then said:

The greatest military on the planet is useless without a will to employ it though...

Would it be useful against the next bio plague?  How is it going to help us if we devolve into civil war?    Strength starts with unity and resolve, not a military.

[jmccr8]

I thought the topic was Russia and Nato how the hell did Biden and Trump get into this never mind the great American military BS that is being spouted. Nato is more than the American forces, granted they are a part of Nato but they are not the principal vote.

[+and-then]

3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Would it be useful against the next bio plague?  How is it going to help us if we devolve into civil war?    Strength starts with unity and resolve, not a military.

All of that would hinge on the perceived willingness to act in defense of the nation.  ESPECIALLY  the external threats.  For example... if the CCP was told, in a crystal clear fashion that if another virus "escapes into the world that causes mass casualties, then the U.S. and our allies WILL respond with WMD at a time and in a place of our choosing.  THEN be ready to do so.  What we are seeing now is precisely the opposite response.  Our government is obviously allowing this to pass without any demands for a reckoning, even of honest information.  There is zero incentive for the CCP to refrain from using the same tactic again at a time of their choosing. 

In fact, there is talk right now of a hemorrhagic virus in Xi'An, a city of 13+ million people.  

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31132674/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30347642/

Even a brief read shows that Nipah virus has a potential  CFR between 50 and 80 percent.  There are reports that Nipah was part of the illegal shipment of deadly pathogens for which two Chinese researchers were booted from Canada.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8506197/

2. Why a major concern ^

"Nipah virus belongs to the group of Biosafety Level-4 pathogen associated with high case fatality rate (40–75%) (Singh et al., 2019), whereas the ongoing pandemic of COVID-19 has 1–2% mortality. NiV is a single-stranded, negative-sense RNA virus of 18.2 kb genome encoded by three non-structural and six structural proteins i.e. nucleo-, phosphor-, matrix-, fusion-, glycol-, and RNA polymerase proteins (Wang et al., 2001) Fig. 1 . Being an emerging zoonotic virus, it gets transmitted from animals to humans. Among humans, the virus spreads through body fluids, respiratory droplets, blood, and urine. Fruit bat (Pteropus medius) is the reservoir host and can spread the infection to pigs and sheep as the first infection was identified in the Nipah village of Malaysia in a pig farm (Chua, 2012)."

https://www.the-sun.com/news/3202525/worlds-deadliest-viruses-sent-wuhan-leak-lab-scientists-canada/

https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/29803/20210222/nipah-virus-potential-pandemic-signs-symptoms.htm

One of these "escapes" from a lab and our civilization is in jeopardy.  At a MINIMUM, I'd say it's time for a global discussion and a Treaty that CLEARLY creates the right for all nations to have UNLIMITED ACCESS to any site where it is even conjectured a deadly pathogen could have escaped.  

 

[Golden Duck]

40 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I thought the topic was Russia and Nato how the hell did Biden and Trump get into this never mind the great American military BS that is being spouted. Nato is more than the American forces, granted they are a part of Nato but they are not the principal vote.

Well if there is one thing you can say about Joe biden, it's that he is: a clear and unambiguous speaker; rock solid in his values; and, a man of his word.  Perhaps, there's two things, maybe three, you can can say about him.  It's so difficult to gain insight into such a complex and nuanced statesman.  I mean, forthright, salt-of-the-earth leader.

Anyway, it's clear when he says a smaller incursion would be met with a lesser response, that that's a promise to Plaid Futon that seeking an easement on Ukraine land is perfectly reasonable and an invitation to just proceed when he's ready.

Anyone who thinks otherwise us crazy.  Meeting an action with a proprtionate response is insane.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Golden Duck