Nato vs. Russia: Who would win a war?

[Helen of Annoy]

1 minute ago, Manwon Lender said:

Hey my sister hope your well, it looks like this conversation is never ending. You try your best to explain things and it’s like no one can comprehend or they are not paying attention to you it’s crazy!

Take care, hope you are well!

I'm well, thank you and I hope you're well too. 

Don't worry, this is just venting for me. 

Ukrainian situation is so very similar to the situation my country was in. Back then, in 1990's, there was no Internet so I had no way to directly respond to hostile propaganda, it was so frustrating, so I'm having a ball right now  

 

This thread doesn't matter. The situation is developing just fine. It's beyond propaganda reach now. But I do enjoy telling an asset or two just how disgusting and futile their treason is   

[Grim Reaper 6]

Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

I'm well, thank you and I hope you're well too. 

Don't worry, this is just venting for me. 

Ukrainian situation is so very similar to the situation my country was in. Back then, in 1990's, there was no Internet so I had no way to directly respond to hostile propaganda, it was so frustrating, so I'm having a ball right now  

 

This thread doesn't matter. The situation is developing just fine. It's beyond propaganda reach now. But I do enjoy telling an asset or two just how disgusting and futile their treason is   

Thank you I am doing fine also. I do agree with about the asset’s here, they either agree with the Russians directly or they are still following Trump which still makes them asset’s by proxy and sadly they don’t believe it, refuse to acknowledge it, or they just turn a blind eye to it. I also agree some of the comments made are treasonous and there no excuse for those comments at all. But that’s what happens to some people when they allow a political leader to control them and they stop thinking for themselves, which is very sad! I remember you told me about your experiences during the Bosnian conflict, and I can sympathize with your plight during that time because I have seen civilians caught in the middle of conflicts on too many occasions. To me it’s the saddest part of any conflict because for them it’s a lose lose situation, and their is nothing more terrible in my opinion!

Its one of those situations where if you have not experienced it or seen it first hand it’s not possible to understand how bad it actually is by reading a story or watching it on TV. I think that is why so many people who have never been in combat or in a situation like you experienced talk these big games about doing this or that, because I am certain if they ever experienced it first hand their comments would change and it would not be some big game to them!

Take care my sister stay safe and stay healthy!

[Guest Br Cornelius]

We can only hope that the internal conflict induced by either siding with Biden position or Trump/Russian will make some of these Patriots reconsider their loyalties. Russia has played a fantastic long game whilst the west slumbered into the current set of crisis. A real reality check as to how been pally with Putin leads directly to treasonous stances will maybe be what it takes to wake up Russia's duped western allies.

Br Cornelius

[OpenMindedSceptic]

Is the answer to the headline question, the Rothschilds? 

[Gromdor]

4 hours ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Is the answer to the headline question, the Rothschilds? 

I'm going to say China.

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, Gromdor said:

I'm going to say China.

I hope they come 'en mass' to visit European tourist attractions. I hope they come marching and fully armed.

Short explanation: they'll have to travel through Russia.

[Abramelin]

8 hours ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Is the answer to the headline question, the Rothschilds? 

That is no answer, that is plain stupidity. How about that, eh? 

[OpenMindedSceptic]

7 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

That is no answer, that is plain stupidity. How about that, eh? 

It obviously is an answer.

Just one you didn't like.

I don't care. Really. 

[Abramelin]

I never thought much of rat-faced Putin. I have seen photos of him as a young boy. Just by judging his face I assume he would steal the jewels from his mother's grave.

And then that walk of his when he goes up stage: he walks like some macho kid, or better, a male penguin.

Russian 'culture' is all about machismo, and little rat-face is their answer for a leader.

I never liked that guy, I think he's a creep.

A very smart creep, a guy who must have laughed in private when he met the greatest idiotic president on earth: Donald Trump (ok, second best to Kim Il Un).

I also think he moves like he moves because of the Russian mafia. These thugs are into oil , arms, and lots more.

Cheers!

 

[Abramelin]

17 minutes ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

It obviously is an answer.

Just one you didn't like.

I don't care. Really. 

Well, are you willing to explain your answer here?

Edited to add:

According to your 'sources' the Jews are behind all this, right?

Edited January 22, 2022 by Abramelin

[OpenMindedSceptic]

14 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Well, are you willing to explain your answer here?

Edited to add:

According to your 'sources' the Jews are behind all this, right?

You have to got to be American. 

Only an American would make that comment about race or religion when it has zero to do with that.

And I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

You have to got to be American. 

Only an American would make that comment about race or religion when it has zero to do with that.

And I have nothing more to say to you.

 

I'm Dutch.

Ok. So, why do you think the Rothschilds are behind it?

 

[OpenMindedSceptic]

18 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I'm Dutch.

Ok. So, why do you think the Rothschilds are behind it?

 

Maybe have a look at things like this: https://www.ieri.be/en/publications/wp/2019/juillet/banksters-and-warmongers

I am often in Den Haag.

[Abramelin]

11 minutes ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Maybe have a look at things like this: https://www.ieri.be/en/publications/wp/2019/juillet/banksters-and-warmongers

I am often in Den Haag.

Great read. But that's just a website.

Any reliable sources?

Another thing: bankers may gain a huge profit from wars, but did they start them?

That is what you are suggesting.

[DarkHunter]

11 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

The misinterpretation you're spreading is Russian made. It aims at creating distrust and division among NATO allies. 

What part of what I said is wrong or Russian made.  The majority of the larger NATO nations and a few of the smaller ones are doing stuff to help Ukraine resist a Russian invasion except Germany which is refusing to send lethal aid and blocking other NATO countries from sending lethal aid that originated in Germany.  Even then Germany isnt exactly a critical nation in NATO as their military is largely nonexistent and essentially a joke.

11 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Germany is not trying to protect Russia. They've been the first to help Ukrainian wounded, as they were those who sent the plane to evacuate and save poisoned Russian opposition politician in the last moment. 

Their diplomatic, humanitarian and logistic help for Ukraine is undeniable. Everything except weapons.

Helping a Russian politician doesnt do much to aid Ukraine.  Diplomacy has failed, humanitarian aid doesnt mean much when armored forces are rolling over a border, and the logistic help Ukraine needs Germany is denying.  Ukraine needs weapons and ammo and Germany refuses to help which indirectly aids Russia.

11 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Because they've got historic reasons that make them extra ethical. Read Deutsche Welle's article for detailed explanation. (I am surprised someone needs it explained, but there it is. I also don't think Germany should be that strict about themselves, but it is their decision I can only respect.)

So extra ethical they willing sell weapons to Egypt, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey among other countries but they wont sell or send weapons to Ukraine.  Doesn't it seem odd that Germany has no real issues selling weapons to just about any other country in the world, regardless of how that nation acts, except for the one  country Russia is about to invade.

11 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

That problem wouldn't exists for a country with sane regime. In other words, only because Putin thinks he can avoid real Russian domestic problems by expanding Russia he gets to worry about Ukraine (and other neighbours) getting better armed. 

Only a successful territorial gain would somewhat help him, short-term, with his self-inflicted domestic problems and not even Crimea was successful. Trying to 'fix' Crimea will cost him more than he can pay, both financially and in terms of domestic further loss of support. What he fears more than loss of support in the population is the loss of oligarch support and that is guaranteed now.   

 

Serve him right, of course, but these latest hysterics are not strategical thinking, it's throwing everything he's got, doing the worst mistake of showing exactly how little he's got to throw. 

It doesnt matter if the problem would or woukdnt exist with a different leader, all that matters now is that Russia is almost certainly going to invade Ukraine.  The chance to avoid this outcome is almost certainly zero so now the next best step needs to be taken which is arming and aiding Ukraine to help them resist and make a Russian invasion as costly as possible.  Germany is simply not helping in that regard and is doing everything they can to slow that down while multiple other NATO countries are doing everything they can to arm Ukraine.

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

What part of what I said is wrong or Russian made.  The majority of the larger NATO nations and a few of the smaller ones are doing stuff to help Ukraine resist a Russian invasion except Germany which is refusing to send lethal aid and blocking other NATO countries from sending lethal aid that originated in Germany.  Even then Germany isnt exactly a critical nation in NATO as their military is largely nonexistent and essentially a joke.

Helping a Russian politician doesnt do much to aid Ukraine.  Diplomacy has failed, humanitarian aid doesnt mean much when armored forces are rolling over a border, and the logistic help Ukraine needs Germany is denying.  Ukraine needs weapons and ammo and Germany refuses to help which indirectly aids Russia.

So extra ethical they willing sell weapons to Egypt, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey among other countries but they wont sell or send weapons to Ukraine.  Doesn't it seem odd that Germany has no real issues selling weapons to just about any other country in the world, regardless of how that nation acts, except for the one  country Russia is about to invade.

It doesnt matter if the problem would or woukdnt exist with a different leader, all that matters now is that Russia is almost certainly going to invade Ukraine.  The chance to avoid this outcome is almost certainly zero so now the next best step needs to be taken which is arming and aiding Ukraine to help them resist and make a Russian invasion as costly as possible.  Germany is simply not helping in that regard and is doing everything they can to slow that down while multiple other NATO countries are doing everything they can to arm Ukraine.

Where do you get your information from?

[DarkHunter]

1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

Where do you get your information from?

From multiple sources, if you have any specific questions about the source it's much easier if specific stuff is asked about being sourced.

The weapon shipments to Ukraine are rather easy to find along with Germany refusing to send lethal aid and refusing permission to countries to send lethal aid that originated in Germany.  

The German military being a joke and nonexistent is from the German government itself.  When Germany went through reunification one of the conditions was the German government releasing a yearly update on the state of their military.  Essentially the reports are bad, on average anywhere from a third to half of all German military equipment isnt ready for combat, some specific stuff is from two thirds to near 100%, and about a third of all officer positions are empty if I remember correctly.

Diplomacy failing and humanitarian aid is a personal opinion.

For German weapon exports that is also rather trivial to check, Germany is in like the top 5 arm exporting countries if I remember correctly.  They arent exactly picky with who they sell weapons to generally except with Ukraine recently.

As I said if you have any questions about something specific being cited it's easier to ask about that specific thing cause citing every thing will be rather time consuming and I'm lazy.

Edited January 23, 2022 by DarkHunter

[Michelle]

Well, Biden and Hillary have both wanted a war with Russia for a long time. Looks like the Democrats are trying to accommodate them.

[OpenMindedSceptic]

10 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Great read. But that's just a website.

Any reliable sources?

Another thing: bankers may gain a huge profit from wars, but did they start them?

That is what you are suggesting.

Nobody wins in war apart from the financiers 

As for this potential war, and who starts it, it's about geography. Russia needs ports in warm waters to have a naval presence for more months of the year.

[Helen of Annoy]

11 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

What part of what I said is wrong or Russian made.  The majority of the larger NATO nations and a few of the smaller ones are doing stuff to help Ukraine resist a Russian invasion except Germany which is refusing to send lethal aid and blocking other NATO countries from sending lethal aid that originated in Germany.  Even then Germany isnt exactly a critical nation in NATO as their military is largely nonexistent and essentially a joke.

Everything you said is wrong and Russian made because you are spreading malicious misinterpretation of the facts, instead of facts. I gave you DW link with detailed overview of the facts. 

The misinterpretation you're spreading is clearly aimed at disuniting NATO by singling out one member as being opposed to the actions that are helping Ukraine, despite Germany being in position and doing more to help Ukraine than a crate of this or that weapon can. 

Only it takes two working brain cells to understand a little more complicated relations and strategies.  

 

11 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

Helping a Russian politician doesnt do much to aid Ukraine.  Diplomacy has failed, humanitarian aid doesnt mean much when armored forces are rolling over a border, and the logistic help Ukraine needs Germany is denying.  Ukraine needs weapons and ammo and Germany refuses to help which indirectly aids Russia.

Russian politician who is in the opposition to Putin. Yes, helping him does help everyone, both in sane Russia and Ukraine. Because this situation wouldn't occur if Russia had sane leadership.   

 

11 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

So extra ethical they willing sell weapons to Egypt, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey among other countries but they wont sell or send weapons to Ukraine.  Doesn't it seem odd that Germany has no real issues selling weapons to just about any other country in the world, regardless of how that nation acts, except for the one  country Russia is about to invade.

There's significant historic difference between Qatar and Russia. You apparently have to keep acting like you can't comprehend that, since the propaganda theory of Germany being on Russian side depends on such ridiculous ignorance. 

Personally, I see no reason for Germany to keep atoning for 70+ years old mistakes, but it is their decision and since they respect my government's decisions, so I respect their government's decisions too. Besides, I think they're very much correct when they think sanctions will be the key, not the classic armed conflict. 

And that's the exact reason why you've been sold propaganda against Germany - their view is very convincingly correct, while sowing discord and portraying sanctions as something that's not crucial, favouring physical sacrifice of Ukraine instead, accepting Russian extortion as something plausible, is what actually benefits Putin. 

 

11 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

It doesnt matter if the problem would or woukdnt exist with a different leader, all that matters now is that Russia is almost certainly going to invade Ukraine.  The chance to avoid this outcome is almost certainly zero so now the next best step needs to be taken which is arming and aiding Ukraine to help them resist and make a Russian invasion as costly as possible.  Germany is simply not helping in that regard and is doing everything they can to slow that down while multiple other NATO countries are doing everything they can to arm Ukraine.

Of course it matters who is doing this to Russia and consequentially to the neighbouring countries. Because the reason why something started is the key how it can be ended. 

While 'the imminent Russian invasion' is exactly how this escalation should be seen, it's far from realistic. Putin is hoping he can get western politicians to think like you do and turn against each other instead of unified response. And that response must include precisely that, what German politicians suggest: sanctions. 

Because this whole expansionist circus is meant to give Putin the influence he doesn't have. The bizarre noise he's making is certain sign he's got domestic problems he can't solve. (The fiasco with Belarus extravaganza with migrant 'attack' on Poland and threats to cut gas should have shown to Putin that he's overestimated his extortionist abilities, but it seems he's got nothing else, so here we are...)

So instead of focusing at the bait, how about you too try focusing on the actual goings on? 

Putin gave a ridiculous ultimatum to NATO - withdrawal to pre-1997 situation or he'll invade Ukraine  

How can you not notice that too was 'ingenious' way to saw discord and blame NATO members for Russian acts of war? Only it doesn't work like that. (With exception of the god damned moron who clumped together the theories you're trying to spread here like they can pass in intelligent society.)

 

All in all, you can, of course, keep on tarnishing Germany and contribute to Putin's efforts to disunite NATO. (In few days or weeks your sources will make you believe it's those damn Eastern Europeans ruining everything by entering NATO.) 

While in reality, it's blissfully not important from which NATO country weapons are coming to Ukraine, as long as they're coming, while it's of the utmost importance that no idiot breaks western ranks with propaganda to which you seem to subscribe. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Helen of Annoy

[Silver]

Russia has sent troops more than 4,000 miles to Ukraine’s borders and announced sweeping naval drills as Moscow expands its preparations for a potential attack on Ukraine as negotiations appear at a deadlock.

Six Russian landing ships capable of carrying main main battle tanks, troops and other military vehicles travelled through the Channel en route to the Mediterranean last week in a deployment that could bolster an amphibious landing on Ukraine’s southern coast if Vladimir Putin orders an attack. Ukraine’s military intelligence has claimed that Russia is hiring mercenaries and supplying its proxy forces in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions with fuel, tanks and self-propelled artillery in preparation for a potential upsurge in fighting.

And a large military force, including Iskander short-range ballistic missiles, elite spetsnaz troops and anti-aircraft batteries, has arrived in Belarus from Russia’s eastern military district, an extraordinary deployment that western officials and analysts say could enable Moscow to threaten Kyiv, Ukraine’s capital.

Russian ships, tanks and troops on the move to Ukraine as peace talks stall | Ukraine | The Guardian

Edited January 23, 2022 by The Silver Shroud

[DarkHunter]

6 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Everything you said is wrong and Russian made because you are spreading malicious misinterpretation of the facts, instead of facts. I gave you DW link with detailed overview of the facts. 

The misinterpretation you're spreading is clearly aimed at disuniting NATO by singling out one member as being opposed to the actions that are helping Ukraine, despite Germany being in position and doing more to help Ukraine than a crate of this or that weapon can. 

Only it takes two working brain cells to understand a little more complicated relations and strategies.  

So basically nothing I said was inaccurate you just dont like it when someone points out that Germany is doing essentially nothing of practical value to help Ukraine which indirectly helps Russia.

Do explain how helping a Russian politician or how being vague on what sanctions Germany would approve and what conditions it would take Germany to approve them is far more useful then allowing Estonia to send Ukraine 122 mm howitzers.

Seems now you are moving to personal insults since you have this odd love of Germany and cant admit they are doing little to  nothing to actually help Ukraine or even admiting they arent acting in line with the rest of the major NATO powers.

7 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Of course it matters who is doing this to Russia and consequentially to the neighbouring countries. Because the reason why something started is the key how it can be ended. 

That is just nonsense and word salad.

7 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

While 'the imminent Russian invasion' is exactly how this escalation should be seen, it's far from realistic. Putin is hoping he can get western politicians to think like you do and turn against each other instead of unified response. And that response must include precisely that, what German politicians suggest: sanctions. 

Russia has sent military from the central and eastern military districts along with building ammo depots and field hospitals, moving in squadrons of aircraft and helicopters, and moving heavy artillery including road mobile short range ballistic missiles.  Russia is going to invade shortly, Russis wouldnt move and concentrate the vast majority of its combat units on one relatively narrow front if they werent going to invade. 

As for unified response Germany is the one not going on with the rest of NATO and actively trying to slow or stop arms shipments.  If one wants to believe main stream media Germany is one of the few countries in NATO pushing for a lighter option of sanctions on Russia and wanting to only impose them if Russia does a full on invasion.

Germany is being an unreliable ally and is definitely far more interested in appeasing Russia to keep gas flowing during the winter they sticking with the rest of NATO.

7 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Because this whole expansionist circus is meant to give Putin the influence he doesn't have. The bizarre noise he's making is certain sign he's got domestic problems he can't solve. (The fiasco with Belarus extravaganza with migrant 'attack' on Poland and threats to cut gas should have shown to Putin that he's overestimated his extortionist abilities, but it seems he's got nothing else, so here we are...)

So instead of focusing at the bait, how about you too try focusing on the actual goings on? 

Putin gave a ridiculous ultimatum to NATO - withdrawal to pre-1997 situation or he'll invade Ukraine  

How can you not notice that too was 'ingenious' way to saw discord and blame NATO members for Russian acts of war? Only it doesn't work like that. (With exception of the god damned moron who clumped together the theories you're trying to spread here like they can pass in intelligent society.)

Essentially mord word salad.

7 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

All in all, you can, of course, keep on tarnishing Germany and contribute to Putin's efforts to disunite NATO. (In few days or weeks your sources will make you believe it's those damn Eastern Europeans ruining everything by entering NATO.) 

While in reality, it's blissfully not important from which NATO country weapons are coming to Ukraine, as long as they're coming, while it's of the utmost importance that no idiot breaks western ranks with propaganda to which you seem to subscribe

Germany is doing a good enough job of tarnishing themselves, they dont need any help in that regard.  

You have this weird fixation on eastern Europeans and them taking the blame, honestly seems more like a tactic to distract from points you are completely wrong on and cant or wont answer about.

If it's not important from which NATO country weapons are coming from to reach Ukraine then why is Germany blocking Estonia from sending howitzers, howitzers that Ukraine fields and has the ammo for.  You dong seem willing or able to answer why Germany is doing that.

Just because its information you dont like doesnt make it propaganda, ironically enough what you are trying to spread is far more dangerous as it covers up Germany being an unreliable ally and indirectly helping Russia while trying to paint a picture that everything is ok.

[Helen of Annoy]

@DarkHunter

Yup, I hit the nerve   

Go re-read my posts if you wish to feel like I'm ready to explain it to you for the third time. Which I'm not. 

But I'll make one thing clear, in case some poor naive soul is reading this: a conflict of that magnitude does not depend on allegedly blocked howitzers. 

Which means you can stuff your outrage in that steaming samovar of yours. 

[spartan max2]

I have no doubt NATO would win. If NATO showed up.

It's really just a question if they would 

[Abramelin]

10 hours ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Nobody wins in war apart from the financiers 

True.

But if there weren't any financiers, the wars would still be faught, and maybe even last longer.