Michigan Democratic Party Trashes Parental Rights In Education

[+HerNibs]

2 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Public schools avoid teaching religion to avoid the controversies that come with it.  Teaching about religion is legal, but everybody gets equal time - even the atheists and Satanists.  Teachers who are already short of time, simply can't do it.

Doug

Yep, I had a Religious History class my senior year in High School.  No particular religion was taught but it was a pretty in depth comparison of the history of many.  How religous books reflected many of the same stories, themes, etc.

Really a good class.  As an atheist even then, I found no issues with the way it was taught.

Nibs

[Autochthon1990]

9 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

The problem is that the fundamentalists (mostly Southern Baptists) want public schools to teach THEIR religion and get nasty when the schoolos try to include other religious perspectives.  I suspect that's because the parents don't know anything ab9out their own religion, but are embarrassed to admit it.

Doug

Along with 'nothing bad ever happened to any minority ever, Indians where like that when we got here and black people had a small period of being mistreated which ended in 1969 and things have ALWAYS BEEN FINE ever since there and they're just uppity and whiny'. 

[Vorg]

7 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

The problem is that the fundamentalists (mostly Southern Baptists) want public schools to teach THEIR religion and get nasty when the schoolos try to include other religious perspectives.  I suspect that's because the parents don't know anything ab9out their own religion, but are embarrassed to admit it.

Doug

True. Just like prayer in schools back when. It was taken out. But had it remained and your Catholic child came home reciting Islamic prayers would people be happy about that or vice versa?

School should teach basics of learning, not lifestyles, religion or indoctrination.

[+Desertrat56]

19 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Yea, so have I. My kids outclassed the public school kids. They tried public school again, were bored, came back to home schooling. 

My cousin took her kids out of school and home schooled them because of substandard teaching.   When they were each 18 they took tests to get in to college and all of them got in.  The oldest chose to join the air force, which also has a test (with higher expectations than the army).  The other two have college degrees in computer science and one has an MBA.   

[jmccr8]

35 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

There are some things that should not be the teacher's responsibility, like discipline.

Hi Desertrat

I got strapped religiously in the Catholic school system and have had callouses on my hands since grade 3 so at that time they did think they were responsible even if it was just to vent their frustration on someone who's dad wasn't rich like the rest of the kids in school.

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

My cousin took her kids out of school and home schooled them because of substandard teaching.   When they were each 18 they took tests to get in to college and all of them got in.  The oldest chose to join the air force, which also has a test (with higher expectations than the army).  The other two have college degrees in computer science and one has an MBA.   

Pretty much a same story for mine. My middle kid is in bartending school to quote.

"It's chemistry. With tips."

[Katniss]

2 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Heck both my boys go to public schools. If not for the hours on end I spent with each of them after school during their early years, they would be no where near the students they are today. 
 

Im sure most parents that helped their kids through their school work would agree. Most of the kids who do poorly in school have no learning structure at home. 

Exactly. We are teaching our kids from birth before they go to public school, it doesn't hurt parents to keep teaching them while they are in public school. Teachers are not always able to attend to every specific student's needs. My kid's teachers encourage parents to participate as much as we can. It makes a difference how well they do. Personal experience has showed that to me.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Katniss

[Myles]

46 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Dictatorship of the majority?

Doug

Pretty much, yes.

[Doug1066]

47 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Yea, so have I. My kids outclassed the public school kids. They tried public school again, were bored, came back to home schooling. 

As I said above, sometimes home-schooling produces fantastic results.  And sometimes it doesn't.

Doug

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Doug1066 said:

As I said above, sometimes home-schooling produces fantastic results.  And sometimes it doesn't.

Doug

Good parents can do wonders. 

[Myles]

23 minutes ago, Katniss said:

Exactly. We are teaching our kids from birth before they go to public school, it doesn't hurt parents to keep teaching them while they are in public school. Teachers are not always able to attend to every specific student's needs. My kid's teachers encourage parents to participate as much as we can. It makes a difference how well they do. Personal experience has showed that to me.

That is absolutely correct.   The parents who don't teach their kids usually expect the schools to teach their kids the things they should learn at home.   Mostly manners and discipline.   You can tell right away when you meet them or their children.   Lots of poor parents out there.  

[+Desertrat56]

28 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Desertrat

I got strapped religiously in the Catholic school system and have had callouses on my hands since grade 3 so at that time they did think they were responsible even if it was just to vent their frustration on someone who's dad wasn't rich like the rest of the kids in school.

That isn't public school.   Until the 90's the teachers were not responsible for discipline and that was a good thing.  My mother taught kindergarten and because of one kid she had to stop lessons to deal with him or her.  She got good at manipulating the admin staff in to taking care of the discipline (because of her passive aggressive nature), but most teachers didn't figure that out.  My daughter used to come home from high school crying because the teachers spent the whole class with one or two students with behavioral issues and did not teach, but the tests were always written as if the teacher covered the subject.  It was a loose loose situation for both teachers and students.  When I was in high school the teachers were allowed to kick disruptive kids out of class, but now they are not allowed to do that.

The money for schools goes mostly to useless administration.  If they cut out half the administration they could give the teachers the supplies they need and probably a raise as well.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Desertrat56

[XenoFish]

As a victim of public school. I was taught the basics, how to take test, and follow orders. At least my kids were taught how to think. 

[Doug1066]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

As a victim of public school. I was taught the basics, how to take test, and follow orders. At least my kids were taught how to think. 

That might have something to do with 30+ kids in a class.  Good education is expensive, but until the public is willing to pay for it, they won't get it.

The argument is made that parents should have a say in curricula because they are paying for it.  They aren't paying for very much of it, does that mean they shoudn't have much say?

Doug

[+Desertrat56]

2 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Heck both my boys go to public schools. If not for the hours on end I spent with each of them after school during their early years, they would be no where near the students they are today. 
 

Im sure most parents that helped their kids through their school work would agree. Most of the kids who do poorly in school have no learning structure at home. 

I'm  not so sure that is the case.   I did well at school because I started reading before I got to school, my mother taught me the alphabet and I did the rest.   My parents were too busy to help any of us and we all did well on our own, but we were motivated.  Both our parents and most of my mother's family were college educated.   Conversations were often lessons but no one ever helped us with our homework.   

I noticed that my grandchildren have too much homework, it is frustrating to have to spend 2 hours doing home work that does nothing contribute to the lessons.  The teachers have so much overhead they have to contend with they can't teach any more.   Sending pages of math homework along with copying sentences over and over and having to read a book every night is crazy.   There is something wrong with the U.S. schools that is more than just bad administration, it is bad curriculum, basing teacher's raises on the scores the students get on the standard tests and insisting they have to also discipline the students, buy their own supplies etc.  No wonder so many teachers are quitting, not just because of the virus, which makes it even harder.

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

That might have something to do with 30+ kids in a class.  Good education is expensive, but until the public is willing to pay for it, they won't get it.

The argument is made that parents should have a say in curricula because they are paying for it.  They aren't paying for very much of it, does that mean they shoudn't have much say?

Doug

If the education is quantity rather than quality, definitely. If it's some woke nonsense definitely. 

[+Desertrat56]

38 minutes ago, Katniss said:

Exactly. We are teaching our kids from birth before they go to public school, it doesn't hurt parents to keep teaching them while they are in public school. Teachers are not always able to attend to every specific student's needs. My kid's teachers encourage parents to participate as much as we can. It makes a difference how well they do. Personal experience has showed that to me.

The best teacher my oldest had was in second grade when the teacher asked every parent to commit to help on hour a week in the classroom.  Some couldn't because of work.  I got my boss to allow me to take an extra hour on Friday to help and the teacher had about 10 parents in the classroom through the week.  The other teachers were jealous and said things to her, but she just replied that she asked.  The other teachers had not thought to ask.   Then in high school that daughter was in a private school geared towards college prep.  She was crying over her calculus book the night before a test and my brother asked her, what is it that confuses you?  She told him everything, so he spent one hour with her going over the calculus starting with the first chapter and she made an A on the test.  She said "Why can't the teacher explain it like that?"   The teacher was also a coach and had some kind of chip on her shoulder so that no one dared ask her questions.    It was just the basics that my daughter needed then she was fine.

I could not have helped her study for that test, even though I had 2 semesters of calculus at college and I understood it, I didn't know how to explain it.

Yes, the parents do have to  help the children with the basics and it is good if there is an adult in the family that understands higher math, but most kids don't have that and they still succeed.  It is them who gets the credit for that.

[jmccr8]

12 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

That isn't public school.   Until the 90's the teachers were not responsible for discipline and that was a good thing.  My mother taught kindergarten and because of one kid she had to stop lessons to deal with him or her.  She got good at manipulating the admin staff in to taking care of the discipline (because of her passive aggressive nature), but most teachers didn't figure that out.  My daughter used to come home from high school crying because the teachers spent the whole class with one or two students with behavioral issues and did not teach, but the tests were always written as if the teacher covered the subject.  It was a loose loose situation for both teachers and students.  When I was in high school the teachers were allowed to kick disruptive kids out of class, but now they are not allowed to do that.

The money for schools goes mostly to useless administration.  If they cut out half the administration they could give the teachers the supplies they need and probably a raise as well.

Hi Desertrat

Not sure what went on in non-Catholic schools, the first time I got strapped was my first day in grade 3 as a new student in that school. I got strapped because I was still printing as we had not started writing at the other school so it wasn’t because I was disruptive. The majority of kids in that school were from influential parents so they didn’t get strapped and the three years I spent in that school shaped how I would be treated through the rest of my education.

[+Desertrat56]

3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Desertrat

Not sure what went on in non-Catholic schools, the first time I got strapped was my first day in grade 3 as a new student in that school. I got strapped because I was still printing as we had not started writing at the other school so it wasn’t because I was disruptive. The majority of kids in that school were from influential parents so they didn’t get strapped and the three years I spent in that school shaped how I would be treated through the rest of my education.

I had friends in high school that had gone to catholic school from 1st to 8th grade and told all kinds of stories of nuns abusing kids.   In public school when I went, the teachers were not allowed to discipline the kids, the principal was allowed to spank the kids (in New Mexico only if the parents signed consent, in Texas it was opposite, you had to sign a paper saying no one was allowed to hit your child).   It was rare that kids got sent to the principals office to get hit.   Parents were called in if it happened more than twice.  In the 80's we moved to Texas and my younger daughter came home traumatized because the teacher spanked a kid in front of the class.  That is how I found out I had to fill out a form saying no one was allowed to hit  my child.   Before the 80's children were sent to the principal for corporal punishment.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by Desertrat56

[jmccr8]

Just now, Desertrat56 said:

I had friends in high school that had gone to catholic school from 1st to 8th grade and told all kinds of stories of nuns abusing kids.   In public school when I went, the teachers were not allowed to discipline the kids, the principal was allowed to spank the kids (in New Mexico only if the parents signed consent, in Texas it was opposite, you had to sign a paper saying no one was allowed to hit your child).   It was rare that kids got sent to the principals office to get hit.   Parents were called in if it happened more than twice.  

Hi Desertrat

I did know one neighbor kid that went to a public school nearby during the same period and had to go to the hospital for ruptured blood vessels because the principal strapped his wrist instead of his hands.

We grew up in different places so that is likely why we had different experiences 

[+Desertrat56]

15 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Desertrat

I did know one neighbor kid that went to a public school nearby during the same period and had to go to the hospital for ruptured blood vessels because the principal strapped his wrist instead of his hands.

We grew up in different places so that is likely why we had different experiences 

The principals in the schools I went to used a big wooden board with holes in it instead of a strap.   I think eventually parents got rid of those boards but they were used on one kid in 6th grade several times and then his punishment was to go to every 5th & 6th grade class to tell all the kids about what happens when you get sent to the principals office.   His parents were in school a lot.  And him telling the other kids was really a waste of class time, as any kid who would get sent to the principals office by that age already had been.  I think it was the parents insisting the principal find a better way to discipline their son.

P.S. they were also only allowed to hit the kids on the butt, never on the hands, legs, arms, hands or head.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Desertrat56

[jmccr8]

6 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

The principals in the schools I went to used a big wooden board with holes in it instead of a strap.   I think eventually parents got rid of those boards but they were used on one kid in 6th grade several times and then his punishment was to go to every 5th & 6th grade class to tell all the kids about what happens when you get sent to the principals office.   His parents were in school a lot.

Hi Desertrat

The school never spoke to my parents about me getting strapped and the only reprieve I got was when my mom substituted at that school for a couple of weeks and nothing was said to her because they didn’t have valid grounds for punishment. I never said anything because home rule was you get strapped at school you got tuned at home and I was good with getting one beating per day instead of two.

Edited January 20, 2022 by jmccr8

[Doug1066]

42 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

If the education is quantity rather than quality, definitely. If it's some woke nonsense definitely. 

I'm talking about a good education.  Something where you can use the material once you've mastered it.  To my way of thinking, quantity is not education at all because you can't use it.  About "woke:"  I'm ot sure what one would teach in a "woke" class.  I suspect that's mostly a right-wing propaganda point.

Doug

Edited January 20, 2022 by Doug1066

[+Desertrat56]

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Desertrat

The school never spoke to my parents about me getting strapped and the only reprieve I got was when my mom substituted at that school for a couple of weeks and nothing was said to her because they didn’t have valid grounds for punishment. I never said anything because home rule was you get strapped at school you got tuned at home and I was good with getting one beating per day instead of two.

That sounds like some of the stories I heard.  My sister in law watch the  nun break a kids hand hitting him with a ruler.   And it was not for anything punishable, it was because his handwriting was not very good.

That is not to say public school teachers, when I was in school, did not pick on kids they didn't like.  I had a 5th grade teacher that was excessively unintelligent and there was a girl in class that was teased a lot.  Her brother had died and the whole family was off kilter, she got no care and she missed her brother so she wore his clothes.  In the 60's girls were supposed to dress like girls.  The teacher encouraged the kids who picked on her and even gave her bad grades when she didn't deserve it.  My friends went to the teacher to show her that this girl had done the work and did not deserve an F and the teacher told them to mind their own business.   

[+Desertrat56]

3 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I'm talking about a good education.  Something where you can use the material once you've mastered it.  To my way of thinking, quantity is not education at all because you can't use it.  About "woke:"  I'm ot sure what one would teach in a "woke" class.  

One thing my kids were taught that I would qualify as "woke" before that was a thing was the misuse of the word "fair".   Everything had to be "fair" so kids who did well suffered because the teacher had to be "fair" to the kids who didn't.   And both my girls came home from 2nd grade exclaiming "That's not Fair!" when asked to do a chore they had always done.   So they got "schooled" on how there was no such thing as fair and they would do their chore or have consequences.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Desertrat56