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70 % Of Covid Patients In Hospital Primarily There For OTHER Reasons


itsnotoutthere

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4 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

I think the death numbers made available (17,371) through a freedom of information request are seemingly contradictory but can be explained.

If they are subtracted from the numbers of deaths above the typical death average, about 125,000, then this gives 107,000 ish.

There is no specific reason for those who died above the average so people could have died for many reasons. They are just unexpected extra deaths above those that could be expected.

Like developing cancer and unable to receive timely treatment or avoiding hospital when experiencing chest pain or breathing difficulties like asthma.

There are obviously others. 

The video included the findings of an ex WHO cancer doctor who claimed around 50,000 have or would die from cancer due to covid changes in treatment availability. 

This seems to indicate that, beyond those known to have died only from covid, the others who died above the typical average were colleterial damage of covid policy.

It will be interesting to see the political ramifications of this as an opposition party would want to attack the governments overzealous covid approach while ignoring the fact they called for even more strict measures. 

Another reason for these numbers to have been ignored.;)

 

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1 hour ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

I think the death numbers made available (17,371) through a freedom of information request are seemingly contradictory but can be explained.

If they are subtracted from the numbers of deaths above the typical death average, about 125,000, then this gives 107,000 ish.

There is no specific reason for those who died above the average so people could have died for many reasons. They are just unexpected deaths in a normal year.

Like developing cancer and unable to receive timely treatment or avoiding hospital when experiencing chest pain or breathing difficulties like asthma.

There are obviously others. 

The video included the findings of an ex WHO cancer doctor who claimed around 50,000 have or would die from cancer due to covid changes in treatment availability. 

This seems to indicate that, beyond those known to have died only from covid, the others who died above the typical average were colleterial damage of covid policy.

It will be interesting to see the political ramifications of this as an opposition party would want to attack the governments overzealous covid approach while ignoring the fact they called for even more strict measures. 

Another reason for these numbers to have been ignored.;)

The arguments about "miscounting" cases seem to be made by people who don't know how to count.

Doug

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5 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

My post simply highlights the disparity between the numbers of people that doctors legally recorded as dying 'with' covid & those who died 'from' covid. We are not talking about 'agendas' we are talking about official govenment figures. It's not difficult to understand. And one thing to take from these figures is if hundreds of thousands of people died from underlying health issues pushed over the edge by covid rather that dying from covid itself, then there are a lot of very unhealthy people walking around.

No one dies from Covid.  They die from what Covid does to their body- I.E. Blood clots, pneumonia, organ failure, etc...

Just like no one dies from bullets.  They die from what bullets do to their body.  I.E. organ destruction, loss of blood, etc.  

Death Certificates reflect this.

 

 

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On 1/21/2022 at 9:14 AM, itsnotoutthere said:

Odd that they've spent the last few weeks trying to bury Johnson, you'd think this would help.

Doesn’t look good for the unvaccinated in U.K. If things don’t change won’t be many left :(
 

Table 1: The age-standardised mortality rate (ASMR) for deaths involving COVID-19 was 96% lower for people who received the second dose at least 21 days ago compared to unvaccinated people between 1 January and 31 October
ASMRs per 100,000 person-years by vaccination status, England, deaths occurring between 1 January and 31 October 2021

Vaccination status Deaths involving COVID-19       Non-COVID-19 deaths              All deaths

Unvaccinated                       938.9 (928.5, 949.3)    1501.8 (1488.9, 1514.6).            2440.7 (2424.2, 2457.2)

Received only the first dose, less than 21 days ago 186 (180.1, 191.9) 609.3 (598.7, 619.8) 795.2 (783.1, 807.3)

Received only the first dose, at least 21 days ago 116.5 (113.8, 119.3) 1115.7 (1106.5, 1124.8) 1232.2 (1222.6, 1241.8)

Received the second dose, less than 21 days ago 7.3 (6.2, 8.3) 464.3 (455.5, 473.1) 471.6 (462.7, 480.4)

Received the second dose, at least 21 days ago 33.6 (32.8, 34.4) 816.9 (802, 831.8) 850.5 (835.6, 865.5)

Source: Office for National Statistics, Public Health Data Asset, National Immunisation Management Service

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween1januaryand31october2021

Edited by Manwon Lender
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37 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Doesn’t look good for the unvaccinated in U.K. If things don’t change won’t be many left :(
 

Table 1: The age-standardised mortality rate (ASMR) for deaths involving COVID-19 was 96% lower for people who received the second dose at least 21 days ago compared to unvaccinated people between 1 January and 31 October
ASMRs per 100,000 person-years by vaccination status, England, deaths occurring between 1 January and 31 October 2021

Vaccination status Deaths involving COVID-19       Non-COVID-19 deaths              All deaths

Unvaccinated                       938.9 (928.5, 949.3)    1501.8 (1488.9, 1514.6).            2440.7 (2424.2, 2457.2)

Received only the first dose, less than 21 days ago 186 (180.1, 191.9) 609.3 (598.7, 619.8) 795.2 (783.1, 807.3)

Received only the first dose, at least 21 days ago 116.5 (113.8, 119.3) 1115.7 (1106.5, 1124.8) 1232.2 (1222.6, 1241.8)

Received the second dose, less than 21 days ago 7.3 (6.2, 8.3) 464.3 (455.5, 473.1) 471.6 (462.7, 480.4)

Received the second dose, at least 21 days ago 33.6 (32.8, 34.4) 816.9 (802, 831.8) 850.5 (835.6, 865.5)

Source: Office for National Statistics, Public Health Data Asset, National Immunisation Management Service

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween1januaryand31october2021

This information is in desperate need of help from The Ministry of Graphs.

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20 hours ago, Arbenol said:

Not entirely garbage, but definitely disingenuous.

There's a clear statement by the Health Ministry that anyone who dies whilst infected will be treated as a Covid death until investigations are complete.

That's from the link in the article you cited.

Do you know for a fact that he is still classified as someone who died from Covid? If so, then I'd agree with you about this.

 

I don't know. I'm guessing no.

Media make a habit of spin doctoring gotta keep 'em honest.

Like how they would report the number of infecteds in hospital including children, until they were challenged as mostly everyone in there weren't even sick with it, they were in for unrelated issues.

If that sort of foul play doesn't make you pass a gall stone maybe this will,

It was reported very recently here that a 'third of all covid hospitalizations are unvaxxinated'

Of course, the other two thirds were vaxxinated.

Perhaps the vaccinated were in better shape and a lot happier to be there?  

Who knows why?

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11 minutes ago, taniwha said:

I don't know. I'm guessing no.

Media make a habit of spin doctoring gotta keep 'em honest.

Like how they would report the number of infecteds in hospital including children, until they were challenged as mostly everyone in there weren't even sick with it, they were in for unrelated issues.

If that sort of foul play doesn't make you pass a gall stone maybe this will,

It was reported very recently here that a 'third of all covid hospitalizations are unvaxxinated'

Of course, the other two thirds were vaxxinated.

Perhaps the vaccinated were in better shape and a lot happier to be there?  

Who knows why?

I'd agree that the way statistics are collected and published can be confusing, but I think there has been transparency around this. For example, many people may have assumed that the numbers of people in hospital with Covid were being treated primarily for Covid. Of course this isn't the case and patients are included if they have Covid whilst in hospital regardless of whether they need treatment for it. But this was never a secret. Weren't most people aware of this?

As for your comment on proportion of vaxxed to unvaxxed in hospital: we have close to 95% double vaccinated and these make up 47% of people in hospital with Covid. This is evidence that the vaccination does protect more people from the worst effects of the virus. But that's with a sample size of 21 which I don't think is large enough to get any significant conclusion. Now we've got omicron in the community we'll probably get a better picture of this as we get far more cases. But there is very little room for doubt from the global experience that vaccines do protect better from symptoms despite having poor effect in preventing transmission.

I guess we can agree that New Zealand has taken an overly cautious approach. It's not one I support personally but their approach has been pretty consistent and I don't believe there have been any deliberate attempts to mislead people.

 

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1 hour ago, Arbenol said:

I'd agree that the way statistics are collected and published can be confusing, but I think there has been transparency around this. For example, many people may have assumed that the numbers of people in hospital with Covid were being treated primarily for Covid. Of course this isn't the case and patients are included if they have Covid whilst in hospital regardless of whether they need treatment for it. But this was never a secret. Weren't most people aware of this?

As for your comment on proportion of vaxxed to unvaxxed in hospital: we have close to 95% double vaccinated and these make up 47% of people in hospital with Covid. This is evidence that the vaccination does protect more people from the worst effects of the virus. But that's with a sample size of 21 which I don't think is large enough to get any significant conclusion. Now we've got omicron in the community we'll probably get a better picture of this as we get far more cases. But there is very little room for doubt from the global experience that vaccines do protect better from symptoms despite having poor effect in preventing transmission.

I guess we can agree that New Zealand has taken an overly cautious approach. It's not one I support personally but their approach has been pretty consistent and I don't believe there have been any deliberate attempts to mislead people.

 

Yes and no.  The general public I think, don't try to unravel the headlines or read between them, and indeed neither should they have to interpret hour after hour after hour of reports when a journalist gets paid the big bucks to do just that.

After all it's a Pandemic of the deadly kind, we deserve clear concise reporting. I guess you could say we demand it. I guess you could say it should be factually correct and unambiguous and if errors are made then they should be fixed.

Evenso let's assume this was an error/oversight. The daily hospital reports changed to be more transparent only after someone complained, and only because of that did the govt move to present those stats with more clarity/honesty.

But how many little old ladies suffered heart failure or worse due to the tidal fear of half ass reporting remains a mystery.

Perhaps many people ran out and got jabbed before it was corrected.

Maybe that's what the intention was all along.

Once you scare the jab into someone, you can't scare it out of them.

 

Edited by taniwha
Irrelevant
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13 minutes ago, taniwha said:

Evenso let's assume this was an error/oversight. The daily hospital reports changed to be more transparent only after someone complained, and only because of that did the govt move to present those stats with more clarity/honesty.

 

Did that happen? I wasn't aware if it did. I just thought it common knowledge, but clearly it wasn't.

Although, just to add, when I see the (lack of) quality of articles posted here (not just to do with Covid) it's pretty clear that the NZ media just isn't in the same class when it comes to journalistic bias. That's as long as you don't read editorials, opinion pieces or listen to talk radio (which I do none of).

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17 minutes ago, taniwha said:

Yes and no.  The general public I think, don't try to unravel the headlines or read between them, and indeed neither should they have to interpret hour after hour after hour of reports when a journalist gets paid the big bucks to do just that.

After all it's a Pandemic of the deadly kind, we deserve clear concise reporting. I guess you could say we demand it. I guess you could say it should be factually correct and unambiguous and if errors are made then they should be fixed.

Evenso let's assume this was an error/oversight. The daily hospital reports changed to be more transparent only after someone complained, and only because of that did the govt move to present those stats with more clarity/honesty.

But how many little old ladies suffered heart failure or worse due to the tidal fear of half ass reporting remains a mystery.

Perhaps many people ran out and got jabbed before it was corrected.

Maybe that's what the intention was all along.

Once you scare the jab into someone, you can't scare it out of them.

 

I disagree.  If someone wants to have a voice on a subject, they really need to understand it first.  Take this thread for instance- a lot of time is wasted just trying to explain numbers and charts to people.

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10 minutes ago, Arbenol said:

Did that happen? I wasn't aware if it did. I just thought it common knowledge, but clearly it wasn't.

Although, just to add, when I see the (lack of) quality of articles posted here (not just to do with Covid) it's pretty clear that the NZ media just isn't in the same class when it comes to journalistic bias. That's as long as you don't read editorials, opinion pieces or listen to talk radio (which I do none of).

Yes it happened, blink and youd miss it. 

That type of covid/hospital/stats (mis)representation is notable for being trendy in more countries than ours, so it wasn't without precedent.

For me real news died 9/11/01

 

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:su

21 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

I disagree.  If someone wants to have a voice on a subject, they really need to understand it first.  Take this thread for instance- a lot of time is wasted just trying to explain numbers and charts to people.

I'm don't quite follow, sorry. Perhaps you could demonstrate what you mean with a pictogram or diagram?:st

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Will we need to use more boosters?  Probably.  If covid becomes endemic, we will probably need a yearly booster or two to keep the new strains at bay.

Doug

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On 1/21/2022 at 1:45 PM, itsnotoutthere said:

Yes, even in this country, if you died within 28 days of a positive test,  you were counted as having died from covid even if you were run over by a bus. 

Not to mention, if you get paid thousands of dollars for every positive covid test (which of itself is BIZARRE), that is a good incentive to fudge the numbers. You know human nature.

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13 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

That was back in November 2020 before there were vaccines.  I spent nine days in the hospital and three weeks in quarantine.  Plus three months on oxygen.

Doug

I hope they didn't give you remdesevir...

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It’s more like 99% if you care to get technical about it. COVID-19 is a virus that attacks any underlying health issues you may already have and may or may not know about. You just thought HIV or AIDS was bad. Try something that can latch onto a health issue that might not have harmed you for another 15 or 20 years and just speed it on up to the now. You don’t die from Covid you die from Covid complications it’s not hard to understand that.

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29 minutes ago, Freez1 said:

It’s more like 99% if you care to get technical about it. COVID-19 is a virus that attacks any underlying health issues you may already have and may or may not know about. You just thought HIV or AIDS was bad. Try something that can latch onto a health issue that might not have harmed you for another 15 or 20 years and just speed it on up to the now. You don’t die from Covid you die from Covid complications it’s not hard to understand that.

Well said!  :tu:

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On 1/22/2022 at 7:31 AM, itsnotoutthere said:

It would seem that you are the one having a problem comprehending this. but given the official figures I can understand your incomprehension. The very first line of your very first post on this was quote:- "I was unable to view the video."

May I suggest that you watch the video before commenting any further.

<snipped>

I was eventually able to figure out how to access the video. And this retired nurse did exactly what I stated. Imagine that i was able to figure out his game.

 

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On 1/22/2022 at 9:39 AM, Nnicolette said:

I have heard of more vaccine deaths and serious complications than covid deaths tbh. Funny how they are all considered blood clots and heart attacks and the vaccine will not be blamed, but covid is to blame for blood clots and heart attacks.

I do not believe you. You wrote "I have heard of more vaccine deaths and serious complications than covid deaths tbh".

I don't believe that BS for a second. Hundreds of thousands of people died before the vaccines were available.

I've heard that ludicrous comment only a few times and now it comes again from someone that knows better.

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23 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

My post simply highlights the disparity between the numbers of people that doctors legally recorded as dying 'with' covid & those who died 'from' covid. We are not talking about 'agendas' we are talking about official govenment figures. It's not difficult to understand. And one thing to take from these figures is if hundreds of thousands of people died from underlying health issues pushed over the edge by covid rather that dying from covid itself, then there are a lot of very unhealthy people walking around.

You and the retired nurse are pretending to know more about deaths and how deaths are counted than the medical community.

Look this retired nurse can't even figure out that ivermectin doesn't work.  His ability to analyze numbers is sad.

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30 minutes ago, stereologist said:

You and the retired nurse are pretending to know more about deaths and how deaths are counted than the medical community.

Look this retired nurse can't even figure out that ivermectin doesn't work.  His ability to analyze numbers is sad.

Jesus, I am not sure if you're being purposely thick for effect. And you still haven't watched the video have you? 

"You and the retired nurse are pretending to know more about deaths and how deaths are counted than the medical community. "

Once again for clarity .....The figures in the video are provided to the person doing the video by the government department the Office for National Statistics . Those figures are collected from the hosptitals & i.e. the 'medical community' Do you get it? The figures are from the doctors, this guy doing the video isn't making them up.

Again...watch....the....video.

And regards the second video which no doubt you didn't watch either, at no point does he claim it does work, he's merely pointing out that the BBC  is itself using unpublished unscientific information with no references to debunk a product that has been used a billion times. The evidence the BBC uses to debunk was written by a university student, not a scientist, not a doctor, and the references & links provided by the BBC do not work.

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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On 1/22/2022 at 3:39 PM, Nnicolette said:

I have heard of more vaccine deaths and serious complications than covid deaths tbh.

Some serious questions, lady: why do you feel the need to spread such total nonsense just because you "have heard"? If you hear that somebody claimed to have seen Elvis last summer, will you believe Elvis was still alive last summer? And would you be sure that all people who said/say Elvis is dead are wrong?

Quote

Funny how they are all considered blood clots and heart attacks and the vaccine will not be blamed, but covid is to blame for blood clots and heart attacks.

What?

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55 minutes ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Jesus, I am not sure if you're being purposely thick for effect. And you still haven't watched the video have you? 

"You and the retired nurse are pretending to know more about deaths and how deaths are counted than the medical community. "

Once again for clarity .....The figures in the video are provided to the person doing the video by the government department the Office for National Statistics . Those figures are collected from the hosptitals & i.e. the 'medical community' Do you get it? The figures are from the doctors, this guy doing the video isn't making them up.

Again...watch....the....video.

And regards the second video which no doubt you didn't watch either, at no point does he claim it does work, he's merely pointing out that the BBC  is itself using unpublished unscientific information with no references to debunk a product that has been used a billion times. The evidence the BBC uses to debunk was written by a university student, not a scientist, not a doctor, and the references & links provided by the BBC do not work.

The problem is we think he is a liar.  Could you link the actual numbers and source so we can read and interpret it ourselves?  Because we think he is misrepresenting them.

The reason we think he is lying is because the numbers he is stating don't match our personal experiences and personal research- unless he manipulated them in the ways we mentioned before.  

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41 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

The problem is we think he is a liar.  Could you link the actual numbers and source so we can read and interpret it ourselves?  Because we think he is misrepresenting them.

The reason we think he is lying is because the numbers he is stating don't match our personal experiences and personal research- unless he manipulated them in the ways we mentioned before.  

If you go to my post #38 there is a screen grab from the video, that is the print of the actual Freedom of Information Request sent to him by Her Majesty's Government. Above that I've also summerized the numbers in the FOI document.

P.s. Have you tried to access the YouTube, vid.? 

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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