NATO allies send deadly weapons, munitions to Ukraine while Germany sends 5K helmets

[Grim Reaper 6]

Germany has provided a meager donation of only 5,000 helmets and a field hospital to bolster Ukraineahead of a possible Russian invasion while other NATO allies deploy forces to neighboring countries and supply weapons and munitions to Ukraine itself. Diplomatic discussions stalled this week after U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken provided a handwritten response to Russian demands. Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said Thursday that the response offered "little ground for optimism" but acknowledged "prospects for continuing dialogue.

The U.S. last week delivered 200,000 pounds of ammunition and weapons for frontline Ukrainian defenders as part of a planned total investment of $2.7 billion to improve the country’s security. Turkey supplied Ukraine with anti-tank drones, prompting an uncomfortable call from Russian President Vladimir Putin, while the U.K. shipped anti-tank missiles to Ukraine as well as troops to train Ukrainian forces, The Guardian reported. And some NATO countries have deployed various military forces to member nations that border Ukraine and Russia, including Romania, Estonia, Poland and Lithuania.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukraine-invasion-nato-allies-weapons-munitions-germany-helmets

[+and-then]

I wonder what the status of Nord Stream 2 is?  If Germany's government decides to go ahead with becoming essentially dependent on Russian natural gas then that's another reason to stay well away from this European conflict.  I'd supply the Ukrainians with as much intel, weaponry, ammo, and medicine as they need, at no cost, but not one U.S. service person should die to defend Europe from anyone again.

[Grim Reaper 6]

45 minutes ago, and then said:

I wonder what the status of Nord Stream 2 is?  If Germany's government decides to go ahead with becoming essentially dependent on Russian natural gas then that's another reason to stay well away from this European conflict.  I'd supply the Ukrainians with as much intel, weaponry, ammo, and medicine as they need, at no cost, but not one U.S. service person should die to defend Europe from anyone again.

I disagree and I would never support foreign intervention by the United States Military. But, in the case Putin needs a very bloody nose, and he must be made to back down. If nothing is done Russian Aggression will not end and we be right back in another Cold War. So like I have said, Putin needs to be stopped, and the only thing he understands is force, anything else will be taken as weakness which will only strengthen his aggressive behavior!

JIMO

[Jon the frog]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

Germany has provided a meager donation of only 5,000 helmets and a field hospital to bolster Ukraineahead of a possible Russian invasion while other NATO allies deploy forces to neighboring countries and supply weapons and munitions to Ukraine itself. Diplomatic discussions stalled this week after U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken provided a handwritten response to Russian demands. Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said Thursday that the response offered "little ground for optimism" but acknowledged "prospects for continuing dialogue.

The U.S. last week delivered 200,000 pounds of ammunition and weapons for frontline Ukrainian defenders as part of a planned total investment of $2.7 billion to improve the country’s security. Turkey supplied Ukraine with anti-tank drones, prompting an uncomfortable call from Russian President Vladimir Putin, while the U.K. shipped anti-tank missiles to Ukraine as well as troops to train Ukrainian forces, The Guardian reported. And some NATO countries have deployed various military forces to member nations that border Ukraine and Russia, including Romania, Estonia, Poland and Lithuania.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukraine-invasion-nato-allies-weapons-munitions-germany-helmets

Russia will not go forward, they are just flexing at the border, but if they continue like that it will be Nato that will Invade at this rate...

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, Jon the frog said:

Russia will not go forward, they are just flexing at the border, but if they continue like that it will be Nato that will Invade at this rate...

Whatever, it takes to show Russia that their actions will not be tolerated. I away I hope they do action, because something must be done once and for all to rub Putins face in the dirt! One good bloody nose and Putin will quite down, sadly it’s the only way to stop his posturing and threats. Bullies are all cowards, and once they are faced and put in their place the nonsense stops.

JIMO 

[+and-then]

20 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

I disagree and I would never support foreign intervention by the United States Military. But, in the case Putin needs a very bloody nose, and he must be made to back down. If nothing is done Russian Aggression will not end and we be right back in another Cold War. So like I have said, Putin needs to be stopped, and the only thing he understands is force, anything else will be taken as weakness which will only strengthen his aggressive behavior!

JIMO

So you would support sending our troops in harms way, there?  I can respect a differing opinion but when it comes to casually endangering the lives of our people, I draw a line these days.  I'd say the same if Trump were president.  I hold no animus toward Ukrainians and I have empathy for their plight but to actually fight on the ground with them against Russian forces is an invitation for a potentially catatstrophic escalation. 

Vlad is a criminal thug and unless he meets resistance, I agree that he will keep pushing the boundaries.  The question is, why can't this European problem be handled by Europeans?  His military can devastate Ukrain's military in short order but he does NOT have the power to do the same to say, Germany's forces, or France.  We also see the strongest economy and militaries in NATO, not counting the U.S., clearly avoiding boots on the ground.

No, the U.S. should stay well away from that kind of intervention.  IF the current administration is actually sincere about putting in place crushing economic sanctions then that should be enough to dissuade him.  In fact, cutting him off from the SWIFT network could effectively turn his own people, and more importantly, his cabal of Oligarchs, against him.  As such, that kind of step should be held for the very last throw of the dice.  It might well make him escalate beyond what is expected.

I'd be more likely to support U.S. intervention on behalf of Poland or Czech Republic than Turkey, at this point.  

Finally... what should be our reaction if Putin or Xi or one of the nutter mullahs began staging large numbers of troops or advanced weaponry on America's southern OR northern borders?  Do you see the hypocrisy between what we expect of him and what we would surely do?

[Grim Reaper 6]

31 minutes ago, and then said:

So you would support sending our troops in harms way, there?  I can respect a differing opinion but when it comes to casually endangering the lives of our people, I draw a line these days.  I'd say the same if Trump were president.  I hold no animus toward Ukrainians and I have empathy for their plight but to actually fight on the ground with them against Russian forces is an invitation for a potentially catatstrophic escalation. 

Vlad is a criminal thug and unless he meets resistance, I agree that he will keep pushing the boundaries.  The question is, why can't this European problem be handled by Europeans?  His military can devastate Ukrain's military in short order but he does NOT have the power to do the same to say, Germany's forces, or France.  We also see the strongest economy and militaries in NATO, not counting the U.S., clearly avoiding boots on the ground.

No, the U.S. should stay well away from that kind of intervention.  IF the current administration is actually sincere about putting in place crushing economic sanctions then that should be enough to dissuade him.  In fact, cutting him off from the SWIFT network could effectively turn his own people, and more importantly, his cabal of Oligarchs, against him.  As such, that kind of step should be held for the very last throw of the dice.  It might well make him escalate beyond what is expected.

I'd be more likely to support U.S. intervention on behalf of Poland or Czech Republic than Turkey, at this point.  

Finally... what should be our reaction if Putin or Xi or one of the nutter mullahs began staging large numbers of troops or advanced weaponry on America's southern OR northern borders?  Do you see the hypocrisy between what we expect of him and what we would surely do?

Stay out of a conlict that will eventually cause our involvement in thew furute is not the answer, Putins aggression will not stop with the Ukraine. He is very intent upon making things like they once were it started with the Crimea, and then he started in on the Ukraine. I will stand by my previous comments, and I am last one who would normally support such a thing. I have seen the US acting as the worlds police force first hand many times, and I beleive that policy was foolish. But, if we sit back and allow Putin to invade the Unkraine and take the country over, it will not stop there guaranteed. Its best to stop his aggression as soon as possible, not later when he gas a larger foot hold on Europe.

[+and-then]

Then you are assuming he will blink and that is not usually in the nature of a bully who also has "short man syndrome".  We'll see, probably sooner rather than later.

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/russia-ukraine-medical-units-military/2022/01/27/id/1054375/

You did not address the issue of Europe's responsibility for containing him.  How do you feel about our people dying and risking a potential miscalculation on a nuclear scale while Germany sends 5K of the 200K helmets they were requested to send?  IF he decides he can invade Ukraine, I seriously doubt he will try to occupy the whole country.  He'd be a fool to set up a real insurgency that would slow-bleed Russian sons for an indefinite amount of time.  He'd annex a large chunk of the east and assure a continued water-supply to Crimea then he'd consolidate and reinforce and wait out world sanctions so long as they weren't too crippling.  Biden all but gave him the blueprint for that.  It was like he was saying the quiet part out loud.  SMH...

[+and-then]

https://www.newsmax.com/politics/russia-ukraine-joe-biden/2022/01/27/id/1054387/

The signals just keep getting weirder.  Can this administration get any more inept? Whether this info is accurate or not, really doesn't matter at this point.  It just adds more noise in a situation where the SNR is already way too low.

ETA:  In the early days of the last administration there were multiple instances where news media got transcripts of presidential conversations with foreign leaders.  Maybe the current admin should publish the transcript in this case.  Problem solved, yes?

Edited January 28, 2022 by and then

[+Nuclear Wessel]

1 hour ago, and then said:

How do you feel about our people dying and risking a potential miscalculation on a nuclear scale while Germany sends 5K of the 200K helmets they were requested to send?

I feel that stopping tyranny will always come at a great cost, no matter how you paint it. Do we just step aside and allow the bigger guy to do what he wants to do because of fear? As Manwon said, it won't stop at Ukraine if it's not controlled. Sanctions will only do so much, and Putin does not care because he does not care about his people.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Nuclear Wessel

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, and then said:

Then you are assuming he will blink and that is not usually in the nature of a bully who also has "short man syndrome".  We'll see, probably sooner rather than later.

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/russia-ukraine-medical-units-military/2022/01/27/id/1054375/

You did not address the issue of Europe's responsibility for containing him.  How do you feel about our people dying and risking a potential miscalculation on a nuclear scale while Germany sends 5K of the 200K helmets they were requested to send?  IF he decides he can invade Ukraine, I seriously doubt he will try to occupy the whole country.  He'd be a fool to set up a real insurgency that would slow-bleed Russian sons for an indefinite amount of time.  He'd annex a large chunk of the east and assure a continued water-supply to Crimea then he'd consolidate and reinforce and wait out world sanctions so long as they weren't too crippling.  Biden all but gave him the blueprint for that.  It was like he was saying the quiet part out loud.  SMH...

I assume no such thing, I expect he will try to invade the Ukraine and that he needs to get a blood nose. Like I said he needs to be stopped now not later. I don't really care what his intentions are, he should never have started invading and overthrowing countries on his board. They posed no thread to Russia, his actions are nothing but aggressive in nature and his intentions are obvious. He is trying to reunite former Russian territory that broke away when the Soviet Union collapsed. Please don’t bring Biden into Russias actions, because to do so you must also bring Trump into the conversation and none of that has anything to do with Putins actions, he made his intentions clear before Biden or Trump were elected.

[OpenMindedSceptic]

Three of the weakest presidents of the USA in succession have helped the Russian cause. Obama did nothing in office, Trump is a little wild but stopped N Korea with his bigger button comment, Biden is woeful. 

Putin needs naval capability and can see how weak his largest opposition is right now.

Hopefully NATO can maintain peace. Fingers crossed that China help avoid a war too by exerting pressure on Putin to deescalate.

 

[+and-then]

4 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

I feel that stopping tyranny will always come at a great cost, no matter how you paint it. Do we just step aside and allow the bigger guy to do what he wants to do because of fear? As Manwon said, it won't stop at Ukraine if it's not controlled. Sanctions will only do so much, and Putin does not care because he does not care about his people.

So, you'd be okay with escalating this conflict by allowing the possibility - maybe probability - that a Russian weapon could be seen as responsible for taking down a NATO aircraft or sinking a NATO warship?  How about killing or capturing a U.S. military member?  

I FULLY agree that Putin needs to get an attitude adjustment over his habit of intimidating and running roughshod over his neighbors but it is not our place to do for Europe what Europe should be doing for themselves.  FGS... Germany is obviously prioritizing business with Russia over the situation Ukraine finds itself in.  Have they no responsibility to shoulder most of this burden?  

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the rhetoric that is being employed in the open may leave the little strong man few options for backing down.  Short of he and his thugocracy in the Kremlin dropping any pretense of democratic representation in lieu of reaaserting a dictatorship in the open, his only choice is to NOT be seen as weak.  Russians have nothing but loathing for any sign of weakness in their leaders.  It's a longstanding cultural trait.  So, where does that reality leave us in this situation?  Remember that it is NATO/U.S. who've slowly built up forces and advanced weaponry in many of the nations of eastern Europe.  THEN consider the rank hypocrisy it takes to station a lot of potentially aggressive assets and capabilites right on the border of the Rodina, while knowing that we'd never allow Putin, Xi, or one of the insane mullahs of Iran to do such a thing to the U.S.

Nah, Putin probably will do as Biden so eloquently described the other day.  I think Biden simply said the quiet part out loud.  If Putin strikes fast and very hard he can disable Ukraine's military and severely blood their troops in a matter of a few days.  He could consolidate control over the headwaters of the Dneiper and guarantee a fresh water source badly needed by Crimea and he could create a defacto puppet government in Kiev before he pulled most of his troops out.  In that brief space of time he could accomplish his goals and get out, leaving the west to decide whether to really come after him in a seriously detrimental way. 

Even a severe economic sanction could cause a serious escalation if it would harm Putin politically to the point of him losing his seat of power.  Disconnecting Putin and his Oligarch supporters from the SWIFT network would seriously cripple Russia's economy.  That, alone might be enough to cause him to miscalculate and push the west to the brink.  Remember that despite all their bluster, Russia cannot field a modern force and sustain it for an indefinite period.  They've said often in the past decade that nukes would be part of the planned defense of their soil.  They consider the buffer state of Ukraine to be part of that soil, I think.  If he's bluffing and he gets outed then Russia loses a great deal of credibility where defense of the homeland is concerned.  That will not be allowed to happen.

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Three of the weakest presidents of the USA in succession have helped the Russian cause. Obama did nothing in office, Trump is a little wild but stopped N Korea with his bigger button comment, Biden is woeful. 

Putin needs naval capability and can see how weak his largest opposition is right now.

Hopefully NATO can maintain peace. Fingers crossed that China help avoid a war too by exerting pressure on Putin to deescalate.

 

Well fellows things may be changing very quickly, it’s best to keep up because your behind the power curve!

21 minutes ago, and then said:

So, you'd be okay with escalating this conflict by allowing the possibility - maybe probability - that a Russian weapon could be seen as responsible for taking down a NATO aircraft or sinking a NATO warship?  How about killing or capturing a U.S. military member?  

I FULLY agree that Putin needs to get an attitude adjustment over his habit of intimidating and running roughshod over his neighbors but it is not our place to do for Europe what Europe should be doing for themselves.  FGS... Germany is obviously prioritizing business with Russia over the situation Ukraine finds itself in.  Have they no responsibility to shoulder most of this burden?  

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the rhetoric that is being employed in the open may leave the little strong man few options for backing down.  Short of he and his thugocracy in the Kremlin dropping any pretense of democratic representation in lieu of reaaserting a dictatorship in the open, his only choice is to NOT be seen as weak.  Russians have nothing but loathing for any sign of weakness in their leaders.  It's a longstanding cultural trait.  So, where does that reality leave us in this situation?  Remember that it is NATO/U.S. who've slowly built up forces and advanced weaponry in many of the nations of eastern Europe.  THEN consider the rank hypocrisy it takes to station a lot of potentially aggressive assets and capabilites right on the border of the Rodina, while knowing that we'd never allow Putin, Xi, or one of the insane mullahs of Iran to do such a thing to the U.S.

Nah, Putin probably will do as Biden so eloquently described the other day.  I think Biden simply said the quiet part out loud.  If Putin strikes fast and very hard he can disable Ukraine's military and severely blood their troops in a matter of a few days.  He could consolidate control over the headwaters of the Dneiper and guarantee a fresh water source badly needed by Crimea and he could create a defacto puppet government in Kiev before he pulled most of his troops out.  In that brief space of time he could accomplish his goals and get out, leaving the west to decide whether to really come after him in a seriously detrimental way. 

Even a severe economic sanction could cause a serious escalation if it would harm Putin politically to the point of him losing his seat of power.  Disconnecting Putin and his Oligarch supporters from the SWIFT network would seriously cripple Russia's economy.  That, alone might be enough to cause him to miscalculate and push the west to the brink.  Remember that despite all their bluster, Russia cannot field a modern force and sustain it for an indefinite period.  They've said often in the past decade that nukes would be part of the planned defense of their soil.  They consider the buffer state of Ukraine to be part of that soil, I think.  If he's bluffing and he gets outed then Russia loses a great deal of credibility where defense of the homeland is concerned.  That will not be allowed to happen.

 

[itsnotoutthere]

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2022/01/26/why-germany-is-undermining-nato-unity-on-russia-pub-86279

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-the-pipeline-would-germany-side-with-russia-in-a-conflict

Edited January 28, 2022 by itsnotoutthere

[Setton]

12 hours ago, and then said:

So you would support sending our troops in harms way, there?  I can respect a differing opinion but when it comes to casually endangering the lives of our people, I draw a line these days.  I'd say the same if Trump were president.  I hold no animus toward Ukrainians and I have empathy for their plight but to actually fight on the ground with them against Russian forces is an invitation for a potentially catatstrophic escalation. 

Vlad is a criminal thug and unless he meets resistance, I agree that he will keep pushing the boundaries.  The question is, why can't this European problem be handled by Europeans?  His military can devastate Ukrain's military in short order but he does NOT have the power to do the same to say, Germany's forces, or France.  We also see the strongest economy and militaries in NATO, not counting the U.S., clearly avoiding boots on the ground.

No, the U.S. should stay well away from that kind of intervention.  IF the current administration is actually sincere about putting in place crushing economic sanctions then that should be enough to dissuade him.  In fact, cutting him off from the SWIFT network could effectively turn his own people, and more importantly, his cabal of Oligarchs, against him.  As such, that kind of step should be held for the very last throw of the dice.  It might well make him escalate beyond what is expected.

I'd be more likely to support U.S. intervention on behalf of Poland or Czech Republic than Turkey, at this point.  

Finally... what should be our reaction if Putin or Xi or one of the nutter mullahs began staging large numbers of troops or advanced weaponry on America's southern OR northern borders?  Do you see the hypocrisy between what we expect of him and what we would surely do?

Chamberlain would be proud.

[Jon the frog]

11 hours ago, and then said:

https://www.newsmax.com/politics/russia-ukraine-joe-biden/2022/01/27/id/1054387/

The signals just keep getting weirder.  Can this administration get any more inept? Whether this info is accurate or not, really doesn't matter at this point.  It just adds more noise in a situation where the SNR is already way too low.

ETA:  In the early days of the last administration there were multiple instances where news media got transcripts of presidential conversations with foreign leaders.  Maybe the current admin should publish the transcript in this case.  Problem solved, yes?

One of Russia diplomatic concern and one of the cause of this troop mass-up is Nato pouring weapon in Ukraine... in response to that troop mass-up, Nato is pouring more weapons in Ukraine and say that Ukraine will be a battlefield on all media...

Ukraine is clearly stuck between two dude that want to show their muscle and they are paying the price big time.

Both of them (Nato and Russia) don't care about Ukraine future, don't care about Ukraine citizens, it's just a look good worldwide political game that occurring on the back of Ukraine. Sure that Ukraine governement are confused, more or less like a mouse stuck in a corner between two hungry cats that fights over the control of the situation...

[Buzz_Light_Year]

The biggest danger as I see it is that the Biden administration sorely needs a major distraction from his ongoing failed presidency and that could spell trouble.

[Essan]

If Putin genuinely intended to invade Ukraine he'd have done so several months ago

And now the Ukranian army are equipped with their new German helmets. no way will his risk a bloody nose!

[Jon the frog]

12 minutes ago, Essan said:

If Putin genuinely intended to invade Ukraine he'd have done so several months ago

And now the Ukranian army are equipped with their new German helmets. no way will his risk a bloody nose!

It's sad that backed separatist created a east Ukraine mudpit...Russia used the situation to take Crimea from the separatist hands. It's angering for Ukraine but making whole Ukraine a mudpit is clearly not the good solution. The first thing Ukraine need is stabilisation of the situation to keep what's left in good shape. Right now things are just escalatiing between Russia and Nato and it's messing things a lot more. Ukraine have more or less no control of what's happening and it's probably way more infuriating for them.

[Katzenking]

I just saw new polls on the German TV-channel ZDF. 73% are against weapon deliveries to Ukraine, and the entire political spectrum are on the same page on this.

In detail:
Social democrats (SPD)   80%
Conservatives (CDU)        64%
Greens                               72%
Liberals (FDP)                   65%
Extreme right                     89%
Extreme Left                      76%

I don't know if Germany has weapons at all to give away. I always read that the Bundeswehr is hopelessly under-equipped, so they  should do something against this nuisance first.
Another argument is that if the British intelligence is right and Putin tries to install a puppet regime in Ukraine, what if he succeeds? All the western weapons would fall into Russian hands, like what happened in Afghanistan with the Taliban not long ago.

It looks like this is another test from Putin to see how everybody reacts, to be on top of the headlines around the world and
it benefits him interior. However he will never back down without some kind of success.

Being a cold war veteran myself and very commited to NATO, I expect that if Russia actually invades Ukraine, what I doubt, Germany will provide weapons to the Ukrainians and shut down Nord stream 1 (Nord stream 2 is not yet running anyway) and buy the gas elsewhere, even if it is more expensive.

[OpenMindedSceptic]

7 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Well fellows things may be changing very quickly, it’s best to keep up because your behind the power curve!

 

One shot fired just compounds the truth that the US's last three presidents are weak leaders.

War isn't a show of strength, it is a pitiful outcome of weak leadership.

 

 

[Guest Xetan]

1 hour ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

The biggest danger as I see it is that the Biden administration sorely needs a major distraction from his ongoing failed presidency and that could spell trouble.

Whenever a president seems to be floundering, expect a war to come to their aid.

[Helen of Annoy]

Von der Leyen just repeated that Nord Stream 2 won't be approved if Russia attacks Ukraine. (So far it was waiting for technical approval, now it's officially something that will be used as one of the forms of sanctions.)

At the moment, such statement has more influence on the way Putin's thinking than few howitzers more or less. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Helen of Annoy

[Helen of Annoy]

13 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

I feel that stopping tyranny will always come at a great cost, no matter how you paint it. Do we just step aside and allow the bigger guy to do what he wants to do because of fear? As Manwon said, it won't stop at Ukraine if it's not controlled. Sanctions will only do so much, and Putin does not care because he does not care about his people.

Sanctions that will affect oligarchs is something Putin does care about.