NATO allies send deadly weapons, munitions to Ukraine while Germany sends 5K helmets

[DarkHunter]

1 hour ago, Katzenking said:

I don't know if Germany has weapons at all to give away

The main problem is Germany is blocking NATO countries, such as Estonia, from sending weapons that originated in Germany.  Basically if a country bought a weapon from Germany then Germany is refusing to let that country send that weapon to Ukraine.  I know Germany has been blocking Estonia from sending artillery and has blocked a different country from sending sniper rifles but I cant remember what country it was. 

When the UK was sending anti-tank weapons they flew a significantly longer route that avoided German airspace and the speculation is that the UK government didnt expect the German government to give them permission to even fly weapon systems heading to Ukraine over Germany so didnt even bother asking and just went around instead.

But the German army is definitely massively under equipped.

[Helen of Annoy]

7 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

The main problem is Germany is blocking NATO countries,

That's not the main problem.

The main problem is that Putin thinks Russia is not big enough, that he can extort the influence he doesn't have, that NATO can be destroyed from within, just like the EU and the USA, and that the propaganda he's using keeps successfully hypnotizing too many idiots. 

[DarkHunter]

3 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

That's not the main problem.

The main problem is that Putin thinks Russia is not big enough, that he can extort the influence he doesn't have, that NATO can be destroyed from within, just like the EU and the USA, and that the propaganda he's using keeps successfully hypnotizing too many idiots. 

It's the main problem with Germany in the NATO alliance.  They are more interested in maintaining business with Russia then being in line with the rest of the alliance.

[Helen of Annoy]

45 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

It's the main problem with Germany in the NATO alliance.  They are more interested in maintaining business with Russia then being in line with the rest of the alliance.

There's no problem with Germany in NATO alliance. You've been misinformed. 

So let me remind you that I'm still waiting for the link I asked you to give, where it will at least seem like NATO has any complaints about German decision to not send any weapons. (Yet.) 

Making a mountain out of this molehill benefits Putin, not Ukraine.  

It's screamingly obvious that serious guarantees that there will be sanctions and that these sanctions will affect oligarchs is what scares Putin. He doesn't care how many tank drivers from -stans or Russia will be boiled in molten steel, but he does care what happens to oligarchs', himself included, precious money. 

Which is why it's obviously and completely stupid to froth at Germany. If that's not too hard to understand. 

(Only Ukrainians are exempted from thinking rationally right now, they're not in position to weigh their words too much. You are.)

Edited January 28, 2022 by Helen of Annoy
clarification

[Duke Wellington]

The threat of sanctions is for propaganda reasons.

If you watch your news they will tell you that Putin has no overseas assets.

Finland is the next problem as they are talking about bringing it into NATO. Russia will throw a wobbly over that too.

[DarkHunter]

12 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

There's no problem with Germany in NATO alliance. You've been misinformed. 

So let me remind you that I'm still waiting for the link I asked you to give, where it will at least seem like NATO has any complaints about German decision to not send any weapons. (Yet.) 

Making a mountain out of this molehill benefits Putin, not Ukraine.  

It's screamingly obvious that serious guarantees that there will be sanctions and that these sanctions will affect oligarchs is what scares Putin. He doesn't care how many tank drivers from -stans or Russia will be boiled in molten steel, but he does care what happens to oligarchs', himself included, precious money. 

Which is why it's obviously and completely stupid to froth at Germany. If that's not too hard to understand. 

(Only Ukrainians are exempted from thinking rationally right now, they're not in position to weigh their words too much. You are.)

Besides from a few links in this thread already about how Germany in undermining NATO there is this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/26/nato-allies-policy-russia-ukraine-analysis

"In Britain, the foreign secretary, Liz Truss, has been openly critical of Germany for leaving itself so dependent on Russia for energy, and Berlin’s recent refusal to allow Estonia to send German-manufactured arms to Ukraine."

"In Poland, the prime minister, Mateusz Morawiecki, said in a Facebook post that he remained concerned by the block on Estonia."

"In the US, the German question is increasingly riling Republicans, leading to commentary in the Wall Street Journal with the headline “Is Germany a Reliable American Ally? Nein.”"

Finding a report with NATO itself wont happen but quite a few countries arent thrilled with Germany.  I remember reading about the leader of Estonia hoping the German government would reconsider their blocking them from sending artillery to Ukraine.

With more searching I could probably find more situations of various NATO countries, mostly those close to Ukraine or Russia, being critical of Germany refusing to send weapons to Ukraine and blocking countries from sending weapons that originated in Germany to Ukraine.

As for sanctions Germany has been dragging their feet on stating just how serious those sanctions will be and what it will take for those sanctions to be put into effect.  Quite a few higher ups in the German government have talked about how the sanctions against Russia shouldn't be too harsh or it might risk provoking Russia further.

[Helen of Annoy]

6 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

The threat of sanctions is for propaganda reasons.

If you watch your news they will tell you that Putin has no overseas assets.

 

If you watch your news, certainly, but in the West and generally out of Russia, Putin is among the richest if not the richest man on the planet. 

 

6 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Finland is the next problem as they are talking about bringing it into NATO. Russia will throw a wobbly over that too.

Yes, if Putin keeps on acting like this, both Finland and Sweden will join NATO 

No other Russian president managed to accomplish that. 

[Helen of Annoy]

13 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Besides from a few links in this thread already about how Germany in undermining NATO there is this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/26/nato-allies-policy-russia-ukraine-analysis

"In Britain, the foreign secretary, Liz Truss, has been openly critical of Germany for leaving itself so dependent on Russia for energy, and Berlin’s recent refusal to allow Estonia to send German-manufactured arms to Ukraine."

"In Poland, the prime minister, Mateusz Morawiecki, said in a Facebook post that he remained concerned by the block on Estonia."

"In the US, the German question is increasingly riling Republicans, leading to commentary in the Wall Street Journal with the headline “Is Germany a Reliable American Ally? Nein.”"

Finding a report with NATO itself wont happen but quite a few countries arent thrilled with Germany.  I remember reading about the leader of Estonia hoping the German government would reconsider their blocking them from sending artillery to Ukraine.

With more searching I could probably find more situations of various NATO countries, mostly those close to Ukraine or Russia, being critical of Germany refusing to send weapons to Ukraine and blocking countries from sending weapons that originated in Germany to Ukraine.

As for sanctions Germany has been dragging their feet on stating just how serious those sanctions will be and what it will take for those sanctions to be put into effect.  Quite a few higher ups in the German government have talked about how the sanctions against Russia shouldn't be too harsh or it might risk provoking Russia further.

I said link that shows NATO has any problems with Germany's decision. 

Not Liz Truss.

So you've go no such link because NATO has no problems with Germany. 

 

Brexiter need to spite and divide, at the same time please Putin, combined with lack of shame and brains is seriously starting to get on my nerves. 

Everyone knows Brexitland is in Russian oligarch tentacles, and prays for EU failure, but that you'll go that far to undermine NATO... sheesh, people, buy some shame... and someone that can actually think rationally, to at least stop you from sinking any lower. 

 

 

Edit to add: von der Leyen directly stating that NS 2 will not be approved in case Russia attacks Ukraine. Go ask Liz to explain that. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Helen of Annoy

[DarkHunter]

2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I said link that shows NATO has any problems with Germany's decision. 

Not Liz Truss.

So you've go no such link because NATO has no problems with Germany. 

 

Brexiter need to spite and divide, at the same time please Putin, combined with lack of shame and brains is seriously starting to get on my nerves. 

Everyone knows Brexitland is in Russian oligarch tentacles, and prays for EU failure, but that you'll go that far to undermine NATO... sheesh, people, buy some shame... and someone that can actually think rationally, to at least stop you from sinking any lower. 

No one will find links of NATO criticizing Germany and you know that whic is why you keel demanding it.  NATO isnt set up in such a way where NATO itself will criticize or say anything about a member state.  What there is, which you keep trying to ignore cause it proves you wrong, are NATO countries criticizing Germany which is what would be found.  You know that too but at this point either from pride, propaganda, or some other motive you continue on with what is actual disinformation that is dangerous to the NATO alliance as a whole to defend Germany.

Funny how you focus only on the UK example and ignore Poland.

[Helen of Annoy]

16 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

No one will find links of NATO criticizing Germany and you know that whic is why you keel demanding it.  NATO isnt set up in such a way where NATO itself will criticize or say anything about a member state.  What there is, which you keep trying to ignore cause it proves you wrong, are NATO countries criticizing Germany which is what would be found.  You know that too but at this point either from pride, propaganda, or some other motive you continue on with what is actual disinformation that is dangerous to the NATO alliance as a whole to defend Germany.

Funny how you focus only on the UK example and ignore Poland.

No links where NATO is criticizing Germany because a) NATO is not Putin's propaganda outlet and b) there's nothing to criticize. 

If the **** hits the fan, German field hospital will save thousands. It's haste and foolish to scorn a whole hospital that is worth more than few howitzers - especially since there won't be shortage of weapons and ammo from elsewhere. Not anymore. 

 

Poland's far-out right wing is to be ignored. They are about to either make a very sharp turn back into sanity, either lose any voters who might have a problem with bowing to Russia. Need I explain how unpopular bowing to Russia might be in Poland? 

Putin has set such ridiculously self-combustible stage for all far-right talibans in the EU it's simply adorable. If I was hexing him, I wouldn't think of such perverse self-sabotage. 

 

Speaking of hexing, could you stop annoying me now? Kidding!   

[DarkHunter]

15 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

No links where NATO is criticizing Germany because a) NATO is not Putin's propaganda outlet and b) there's nothing to criticize. 

If the **** hits the fan, German field hospital will save thousands. It's haste and foolish to scorn a whole hospital that is worth more than few howitzers - especially since there won't be shortage of weapons and ammo from elsewhere. Not anymore. 

 

Poland's far-out right wing is to be ignored. They are about to either make a very sharp turn back into sanity, either lose any voters who might have a problem with bowing to Russia. Need I explain how unpopular bowing to Russia might be in Poland? 

Putin has set such ridiculously self-combustible stage for all far-right talibans in the EU it's simply adorable. If I was hexing him, I wouldn't think of such perverse self-sabotage. 

 

Speaking of hexing, could you stop annoying me now? Kidding!   

NATO doesnt have the centralized structure to criticize any member country.  They just have enough centralization to coordinate the militaries of each member country.  The fact remains that multiple NATO countries are criticizing Germany which you keep trying to hand wace away cause for whatever reason you want to be a German apologist.

That field hospital Germany is sending is only valued at about $6 million, probably not that big of a field hospital and probably not able to save thousands.  It is nothing more then a token gesture so Germany can say they did something.

Despite your apparent dislike for the Polish government they are atleast sending weapons and ammo to Ukraine.

Edited January 28, 2022 by DarkHunter

[toast]

1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

The main problem is Germany is blocking NATO countries, such as Estonia, from sending weapons that originated in Germany.  Basically if a country bought a weapon from Germany then Germany is refusing to let that country send that weapon to Ukraine.  I know Germany has been blocking Estonia from sending artillery and has blocked a different country from sending sniper rifles but I cant remember what country it was. 

It isnt a problem but a part of the deal. All nations/countries who want to buy German military technology must agree on that contractual term for the reason to avoid that German weapons will be routed to crisis zones and war zones via 3rt party spots.

Quote

When the UK was sending anti-tank weapons they flew a significantly longer route that avoided German airspace and the speculation is that the UK government didnt expect the German government to give them permission to even fly weapon systems heading to Ukraine over Germany so didnt even bother asking and just went around instead.

That wasnt a hidden message by the German government addressed to the UK but a common result of the German Aviation Security Act (LuftSiG). As Germany is a densely populated country the air transport of explosives is very restricted  and there are plenty of safer air routes between the Uk and the Ukraine.

Quote

But the German army is definitely massively under equipped.

We have enought equipment but a lot of that stuff is not operational because of bureaucracy and incompetent defense ministers in the past.

[toast]

Quote

Ukraine has been demanding weapons from Germany for years to defend itself against a possible Russian attack - so far without success. Olaf Scholz gave Kiev an unequivocal rejection on Tuesday:

"For many years, the German government has been pursuing a same-direction strategy on this issue. And this also includes that we do not export lethal weapons."

 

[Helen of Annoy]

19 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

That field hospital Germany is sending is only valued at about $6 million, probably not that big of a field hospital and probably not able to save thousands. 

You apparently have no idea how it looks like when the **** hits the fan. 

Literal thousands of wounded go through front line hospitals (in case of prolonged conflict), and that's where their lives are saved. Or not. 

What happens to the wounded is not just very important for the wounded, but it's also of extreme psychological importance for everyone else around them. Not to explain the obvious. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Helen of Annoy
toning it down and clarifications... for three or four times... yup, I better go do something else now.

[toast]

16 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

 The fact remains that multiple NATO countries are criticizing Germany which you keep trying to hand wace away cause for whatever reason you want to be a German apologist.

So what? Do you remember?:

Quote

That field hospital Germany is sending is only valued at about $6 million, probably not that big of a field hospital and probably not able to save thousands.  It is nothing more then a token gesture so Germany can say they did something.

IIRC Germany funded the Ukraine in 2021 with about 2B Euro for education, healthcare, infrastructure etc so whats your point here? And, have you ever noticed that post-war Germany is a nation which help where help is needed, without looking at the costs involved?

Quote

Despite your apparent dislike for the Polish government they are atleast sending weapons and ammo to Ukraine.

Thats why the EU cashflow into Poland should be decreased.

[DarkHunter]

1 hour ago, toast said:

It isnt a problem but a part of the deal. All nations/countries who want to buy German military technology must agree on that contractual term for the reason to avoid that German weapons will be routed to crisis zones and war zones via 3rt party spots.

Still denying weapons that Ukraine desperately needs.  Also funny how Germany has no problems selling weapon systems to Qatar and Saudi Arabia among other countries but wont do so for Ukraine.

1 hour ago, toast said:

That wasnt a hidden message by the German government addressed to the UK but a common result of the German Aviation Security Act (LuftSiG). As Germany is a densely populated country the air transport of explosives is very restricted  and there are plenty of safer air routes between the Uk and the Ukraine.

Germany never had issue with explosives flying over their airspace to various other countries.

1 hour ago, toast said:

We have enought equipment but a lot of that stuff is not operational because of bureaucracy and incompetent defense ministers in the past.

That's why Germany's military equipment is anywhere from 50% to about 66% non-operational at any given time.  The German military is a complete and utter joke and barely even exists on paper.  I remember reading articles of German I gantry sent to do combat exercises in the nordic countries and being forced to use broom handles to simulate machine guns due to lack of weapons.  The German military is an embarrassment at best and a liability at worst.

1 hour ago, toast said:

IIRC Germany funded the Ukraine in 2021 with about 2B Euro for education, healthcare, infrastructure etc so whats your point here? And, have you ever noticed that post-war Germany is a nation which help where help is needed, without looking at the costs involved?

Point is Germany is breaking with the rest of the NATO alliance to help Russia just to keep them as a business partner and to keep the Russian gas flowing.  What I have noticed is Germany tends to be a country that helps out when it will be economically beneficial and usually leaves any heavy lifting to other countries while tossing in token aid so they can say they were involved.

1 hour ago, toast said:

Thats why the EU cashflow into Poland should be decreased.

Going to cut the cash flow to the Baltic states too as they are sending weapons and ammo too, what about the Czechs they are sending over 4,000 artillery shells to Ukraine, what about Romania since they signed a deal to sell Ukraine weapons and ammo in November.  Maybe Denmark needs funds cut too since they are now helping to bring up the Ukranian military to NATO standards.

[DarkHunter]

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

You apparently have no idea how it looks like when the **** hits the fan. 

Literal thousands of wounded go through front line hospitals (in case of prolonged conflict), and that's where their lives are saved. Or not. 

What happens to the wounded is not just very important for the wounded, but it's also of extreme psychological importance for everyone else around them. Not to explain the obvious. 

But they wouldn't be in the field hospital potentially if they had the weapons and ammo they need which Germany is doing everything they can to prevent which only benefits Russia.

If Germany doesnt want to send weapons to Ukraine is one thing but to block their supposed allies from doing so shows how unreliable Germany is as an ally especially against Russia.

[+and-then]

5 hours ago, Essan said:

If Putin genuinely intended to invade Ukraine he'd have done so several months ago

Hopefully, you are correct.  IF he's engaging in maskirovka, he's good at covering all the little details to make it credible.  He's recently begun sending blood supplies to the area.  What I don't understand is how he manages to draw down these forces without gaining some kind of concessions from the west.  It just doesn't seem likely that he would show himself to be so "weak".  

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

“Is Germany a Reliable American Ally?

It might be the appropriate time to reposition the forces in Germany to other NATO countries such as Poland and Czech Republic.  I'm sure they'd be welcomed there.  It seems that NATO is in the early stages of dissolution because if it weren't, it wouldn't be comfortable cozying up to Russia.  That's fine with me.  We spend far too much on that alliance as it is and if Germany is more interested in business with Russia they obviously no longer fear them.  It could be that Putin expects to fracture NATO AND have a land-grab in Ukraine at the same time.  A win-win.  If Germany refuses to sanction Putin in any meaningful way, then NATO will be seen as a paper tiger.

Putin needs to pay a heavy price for his adventurism or he'll continue on until he DOES.  That said, no American needs to risk death for a cause that Europe's richest nation refuses to shoulder.  

[Helen of Annoy]

31 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

But they wouldn't be in the field hospital potentially if they had the weapons and ammo they need which Germany is doing everything they can to prevent which only benefits Russia.

If Germany doesnt want to send weapons to Ukraine is one thing but to block their supposed allies from doing so shows how unreliable Germany is as an ally especially against Russia.

No, the field hospital will hopefully remain empty if the threat of sanctions is enough to cool Putin down. 

If not, then the sanctions will force Putin to stop filling both sides' hospitals. 

Of course, this can go on, but this was quite enough of ifs for now. 

 

Ukraine should be armed - if you ask me, Budapest memorandum should be honoured - but insisting that Germany has to do it contrary to their usual stance is bizarre. An ally is not unreliable if they've got their stance that hasn't changed for years, so it's not a surprise or singled out incident.

Two things are worth repeating: it's Germany that is treating Ukrainian wounded, by German own free choice and on German own expense, since Maidan. And it's in Putin's interests to create division within NATO. 

Try thinking about these two facts. 

[Helen of Annoy]

26 minutes ago, and then said:

It might be the appropriate time to reposition the forces in Germany to other NATO countries such as Poland and Czech Republic.  I'm sure they'd be welcomed there.  It seems that NATO is in the early stages of dissolution because if it weren't, it wouldn't be comfortable cozying up to Russia.  That's fine with me.  We spend far too much on that alliance as it is and if Germany is more interested in business with Russia they obviously no longer fear them.  It could be that Putin expects to fracture NATO AND have a land-grab in Ukraine at the same time.  A win-win.  If Germany refuses to sanction Putin in any meaningful way, then NATO will be seen as a paper tiger.

Putin needs to pay a heavy price for his adventurism or he'll continue on until he DOES.  That said, no American needs to risk death for a cause that Europe's richest nation refuses to shoulder.  

The burden of sanctions, which will include stopping of gas imports from Russia, will be shouldered by Germany and every other EU country. (The threat of stopping gas imports is worrying Putin, a lot, one of the signs is Orban making noises, advertising Hungary's need and intention to buy more Russian gas. No, he can't. No, he won't. He's making noises while he still can. Now, the UK, not in the EU anymore, but still in the same place and still infested with more oligarchs and their investments than any other place on Earth. That will be tough choice for them, while having more expensive gas is relatively simple crap to bear with. That's what Liz should think about, but it's more convenient to blame Germany for not ritually sending weapons. While Germany is working on realistic strategies, Liz is creating smokescreen so you can't see oligarchs preparing to avoid sanctions in their freshly Brexited haven.)

In short, the interpretation of realistic attempts to end crisis without war as benefiting Russia is false. It's Russian propaganda and it shows it's the sanctions that scare them, not lives of common people they're always ready to waste. 

 

Besides, 100,000 is not enough to invade Ukraine and certainly not to keep it. Putin will repeat the little green men stunt, get sanctioned to stone age and so on.    

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

If you watch your news they will tell you that Putin has no overseas assets.

He's reputed to have many tens of billions in personal wealth.  I seriously doubt he could have that tucked away outside western banks and investments.

[DarkHunter]

24 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

No, the field hospital will hopefully remain empty if the threat of sanctions is enough to cool Putin down. 

If not, then the sanctions will force Putin to stop filling both sides' hospitals. 

Of course, this can go on, but this was quite enough of ifs for now. 

 

Ukraine should be armed - if you ask me, Budapest memorandum should be honoured - but insisting that Germany has to do it contrary to their usual stance is bizarre. An ally is not unreliable if they've got their stance that hasn't changed for years, so it's not a surprise or singled out incident.

Two things are worth repeating: it's Germany that is treating Ukrainian wounded, by German own free choice and on German own expense, since Maidan. And it's in Putin's interests to create division within NATO. 

Try thinking about these two facts. 

You do understand Russia has been placed under heavy sanctions since 2014 and nothing has changed.  There isnt much left that can be sanctioned at this point other then sanctioning Putin directly, which probably wouldn't deter him, or cutting Russia off from SWIFT which Germany is hesitant to back and which Russia has said repeatedly they would consider an act of war and would respond accordingly.  The sanction card has been overplayed and Russia is largely immune to it. 

Even then Russia has over $600 billion built up in reserves with Germany and the rest of Europe near empty on natural gas stockpiles while Russis has cut supplies of natural gas to Europe to historic lows, at times the flow of natural gas was reversed.  Any sanctions Russia will just wait out.

The whole argument of Germany's usual stance is just not accurate.  Germany has had no problems selling weapons to countries that are involved in conflict or might send them onto third parties, they sell weapons to Saudi Arabia while involved in the Yemen civil war, they sell weapons to Qatar despite them funding and aiding multiple terror groups throughout the world, they sell weapons to Turkey who have used German made leopard tanks against the Kurds.  Germany has no issue selling weapons to troubled areas except when they might get used against Russia which Germany for the past near decade has been bending over backwards to keep from offending to continue business deals while Russia threatens and tries to extort Germany's supposed allies.  Ultimately Germany is an unreliable ally who is more interested in not angering Russia then in going along with the military alliance they are a member of.

While Germany helps injured Ukranians it's nothing more then a token effort as they block countries from sending much needed weapons and ammo, argue for lighter sanctions against Russia, and want higher thresholds for putting sanctions in place against Russia.  While it's true Putin wants to fracture NATO you are defending the country in NATO with the most business deals with Russia who is trying to block and slow down much needed aid to Ukraine who is resisting Russia while a large part of NATO is trying to aid Ukraine despite Germany's efforts.

[toast]

1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

Still denying weapons that Ukraine desperately needs.  Also funny how Germany has no problems selling weapon systems to Qatar and Saudi Arabia among other countries but wont do so for Ukraine.

Of course, Quatar+SA are an issue and I, and the majority of my fellow citizen, would like these exports to be stopped soon and there are good signs this to happen soon.

Quote

Germany never had issue with explosives flying over their airspace to various other countries.

As a former air freight security trainer (besides a number of other qualifications of course), certified by the LBA/Federal Aviation Office Germany, I think my knowledge what can be flown and when and what not is above your knowledge of the matter.

Quote

That's why Germany's military equipment is anywhere from 50% to about 66% non-operational at any given time.  The German military is a complete and utter joke and barely even exists on paper.  I remember reading articles of German I gantry sent to do combat exercises in the nordic countries and being forced to use broom handles to simulate machine guns due to lack of weapons.  The German military is an embarrassment at best and a liability at worst.

I confirmed already that the current status of the German military equipment is not at a stage it should be but please understand that I will not join military dick comparison discussions, maybe your pub mates will do.

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Point is Germany is breaking with the rest of the NATO alliance to help Russia just to keep them as a business partner and to keep the Russian gas flowing. 

Germany isn’t breaking any NATO rules, we just don’t provide the Ukraine with lethal weapons, that’s the point.

Quote

What I have noticed is Germany tends to be a country that helps out when it will be economically beneficial and usually leaves any heavy lifting to other countries while tossing in token aid so they can say they were involved.

Your perspective on the matter seems to be very limited so your judgement is false. Or do you think we, eg., earned an economical benefit by our handling of the refugee crisis in 2015/2016?

Quote

Going to cut the cash flow to the Baltic states too as they are sending weapons and ammo too, what about the Czechs they are sending over 4,000 artillery shells to Ukraine, what about Romania since they signed a deal to sell Ukraine weapons and ammo in November.  Maybe Denmark needs funds cut too since they are now helping to bring up the Ukranian military to NATO standards.

IIRC correctly an agreement was signed beween Romania and the Ukraine, there was no supply yet. And, I wonder what kind of equipment Romania would provide. Oh wait, their MIG21s I think.

[Helen of Annoy]

1 minute ago, DarkHunter said:

You do understand Russia has been placed under heavy sanctions since 2014 and nothing has changed. 

No, I don't understand, I'm as stupid as that level of propaganda requires so problem solved   

Seriously now, the real sanctions the EU and the US guarantee will happen in case of further Russian aggression on Ukraine will crash Russian economy in few weeks. China would of course gladly help Russia access international financial system and that's what Putin is rightfully worried with too. Which reminds me I didn't remind you that everyone and their aunt knows that in case Russia moves too many forces at Ukraine, their far east butt will be exposed. And that's when the real fun would start.