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NATO allies send deadly weapons, munitions to Ukraine while Germany sends 5K helmets


Grim Reaper 6
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7 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

You apparently have no idea how it looks like when the **** hits the fan. 

Literal thousands of wounded go through front line hospitals (in case of prolonged conflict), and that's where their lives are saved. Or not. 

What happens to the wounded is not just very important for the wounded, but it's also of extreme psychological importance for everyone else around them. Not to explain the obvious. 

That’s a very accurate statement!:tu:

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12 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Von der Leyen just repeated that Nord Stream 2 won't be approved if Russia attacks Ukraine.

Which source did you get that information from? As far as I can see, VDL is merely saying that nothing is off the table... which is not exactly the same as saying "NS2 won't be approved if Russia attacks Ukraine". If anything it's implying the possibility of such. It's been Biden that has been saying that, from what I have gathered.

12 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

At the moment, such statement has more influence on the way Putin's thinking than few howitzers more or less. 

To some degree, sure... but how are they currently faring in the absence of NS2, economically? As far as I know they are pulling in many billions just from oil exports alone using their current infrastructure. In addition to that, Europe imports 43% of its oil from Russia, so they (Europe), too, would be suffering if they went ahead and pulled the plug on the pipeline, which is why there is so much hesitance to do so. Importing oil/gas from elsewhere would further worsen the economy, for all.

Russia is also the top wheat/grain exporter, so they have some leverage there.

IMO, there is not going to be any outcome that won't involve significant conflict. This is not something that sanctions will solve. I just don't see it happening.

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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7 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

No, I don't understand, I'm as stupid as that level of propaganda requires so problem solved :lol:  

 

Some light reading on the sanctions imposed on Russia in 2014/2015.

Quote

 

Sanctions against Russian and Ukrainian individuals, companies and officials[edit]

First round : March/April 2014[edit]

On 6 March 2014, U.S. President Barack Obama, invoking, inter alia, the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and the National Emergencies Act, signed an executive order declaring a national emergency and ordering sanctions, including travel bans and the freezing of U.S. assets, against not-yet-specified individuals who had "asserted governmental authority in the Crimean region without the authorization of the Government of Ukraine" and whose actions were found, inter alia, to "undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine".[16][17]

On 17 March 2014, the U.S., the EU and Canada introduced specifically targeted sanctions,[18][19][20] the day after the Crimean pseudo-referendum and a few hours before Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a decree recognizing Crimea as an independent state, laying the groundwork for its annexation of Crimea by Russia. The principal EU sanction aimed to "prevent the entry into … their territories of the natural persons responsible for actions which undermine … the territorial integrity … of Ukraine, and of natural persons associated with them, as listed in the Annex".[18] The EU imposed its sanctions "in the absence of de-escalatory steps by the Russian Federation" in order to bring an end to the violence in eastern Ukraine. The EU at the same time clarified that the EU "remains ready to reverse its decisions and reengage with Russia when it starts contributing actively and without ambiguities to finding a solution to the Ukrainian crisis".[21] These 17 March sanctions were the most wide-ranging sanctions used against Russia since the 1991 fall of the Soviet Union.[22] Japan also announced sanctions against Russia, which included the suspension of talks regarding military matters, space, investment, and visa requirements.[23] A few days later, the US government expanded the sanctions.[24]

On 19 March, Australia imposed sanctions against Russia after its annexation of Crimea. These sanctions targeted financial dealings and travel bans on those who have been instrumental in the Russian threat to Ukraine's sovereignty.[25] Australian sanctions were expanded on 21 May.[26]

In early April, Albania, Iceland and Montenegro, as well as Ukraine, imposed the same restrictions and travel bans as those of the EU on 17 March.[27] Igor Lukšić, foreign minister of Montenegro, said that despite a "centuries old-tradition" of good ties with Russia, joining the EU in imposing sanctions had "always been the only reasonable choice".[28] Slightly earlier in March, Moldova imposed the same sanctions against former president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych and a number of former Ukrainian officials, as announced by the EU on 5 March.[29]

In response to the sanctions introduced by the United States and the EU, the State Duma (Russian parliament) unanimously passed a resolution asking for all members of the Duma be included on the sanctions list.[citation needed] The sanctions were expanded to include prominent Russian businessmen and women a few days later.[30]

Second round: April 2014[edit]

On 10 April, the Council of Europe suspended the voting rights of Russia's delegation.[31]

On 28 April, the United States imposed a ban on business transactions within its territory on 7 Russian officials, including Igor Sechin, executive chairman of the Russian state oil company Rosneft, and 17 Russian companies.[32]

On the same day, the EU issued travel bans against a further 15 individuals.[33] The EU also stated the aims of EU sanctions as:

sanctions are not punitive, but designed to bring about a change in policy or activity by the target country, entities or individuals. Measures are therefore always targeted at such policies or activities, the means to conduct them and those responsible for them. At the same time, the EU makes every effort to minimise adverse consequences for the civilian population or for legitimate activities.[34]

Third round: 2014–present[edit]

In response to the escalating War in Donbass, on 17 July 2014 the United States extended its transactions ban to two major Russian energy firms, Rosneft and Novatek, and to two banks, Gazprombank and Vnesheconombank.[35] United States also urged EU leaders to join the third wave[36] leading EU to start drafting European sanctions a day before.[37][38] On 25 July, the EU officially expanded its sanctions to an additional 15 individuals and 18 entities,[39] followed by an additional eight individuals and three entities on 30 July.[40] On 31 July 2014 the EU introduced the third round of sanctions which included an embargo on arms and related material, and embargo on dual-use goods and technology intended for military use or a military end user, a ban on imports of arms and related material, controls on export of equipment for the oil industry, and a restriction on the issuance of and trade in certain bonds, equity or similar financial instruments on a maturity greater than 90 days (In September 2014 lowered to 30 days)[41]

On 24 July 2014, Canada targeted Russian arms, energy and financial entities.[42]

On 5 August 2014, Japan froze the assets of "individuals and groups supporting the separation of Crimea from Ukraine" and restrict imports from Crimea. Japan also froze funds for new projects in Russia in line with the policy of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development.[43]

On 8 August 2014, Australian prime minister Tony Abbott announced that Australia is "working towards" tougher sanctions against Russia, which should be implemented in the coming weeks.[44][45]

On 12 August 2014, Norway adopted the tougher sanctions against Russia that were imposed by the EU and the United States on 12 August 2014. Although Norway is not a part of the EU, the Norwegian Foreign Minister Børge Brende said that it would impose restrictions similar to the EU's 1 August sanctions. Russian state-owned banks will be banned from taking long-term and mid-term loans, arms exports will be banned and supplies of equipment, technology and assistance to the Russian oil sector will be prohibited.[46]

On 14 August 2014, Switzerland expanded sanctions against Russia over its threat to Ukraine's sovereignty. Swiss government added 26 more Russians and pro-Russian Ukrainians to the list of sanctioned Russian citizens that was first announced after Russia's annexation of Crimea.[47] On 27 August 2014 Switzerland further expanded their sanctions against Russia. The Swiss government said it is expanding measures to prevent the circumvention of sanctions relating to the situation in Ukraine to include the third round of sanctions imposed by the EU in July. The Swiss government also stated that 5 Russian banks (Sberbank, VTB, Vnesheconombank (VEB), Gazprombank and Rosselkhoz) will require authorisation to issue long-term financial instruments in Switzerland.[48] On 28 August 2014, Switzerland amended its sanctions to include the sanctions imposed by the EU in July.[48]

On 14 August 2014, Ukraine passed a law introducing Ukrainian sanctions against Russia.[49][50] The law includes 172 individuals and 65 entities in Russia and other countries for supporting and financing "terrorism" in Ukraine, though actual sanctions would need approval from Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council.

On 11 September 2014, US President Obama said that the United States would join the EU in imposing tougher sanctions on Russia's financial, energy and defence sectors.[51] On 12 September 2014, the United States imposed sanctions on Russia's largest bank (Sberbank), a major arms maker and arctic (Rostec), deepwater and shale exploration by its biggest oil companies (Gazprom, Gazprom Neft, Lukoil, Surgutneftegas and Rosneft). Sberbank and Rostec will have limited ability to access the US debt markets. The sanction on the oil companies seek to ban co-operation with Russian oil firms on energy technology and services by companies including Exxon Mobil Corp. and BP Plc.[52]

On 24 September 2014, Japan banned the issue of securities by 5 Russian banks (Sberbank, VTB, Gazprombank, Rosselkhozbank and development bank VEB) and also tightened restrictions on defence exports to Russia.[53]

On 3 October 2014, US Vice President Joe Biden said that "It was America's leadership and the president of the United States insisting, oft times almost having to embarrass Europe to stand up and take economic hits to impose costs" and added that "And the results have been massive capital flight from Russia, a virtual freeze on foreign direct investment, a ruble at an all-time low against the dollar, and the Russian economy teetering on the brink of recession. We don't want Russia to collapse. We want Russia to succeed. But Putin has to make a choice. These asymmetrical advances on another country cannot be tolerated. The international system will collapse if they are."[54]

On 18 December 2014, the EU banned some investments in Crimea, halting support for Russian Black Sea oil and gas exploration and stopping European companies from purchasing real estate or companies in Crimea, or offering tourism services.[55] On 19 December 2014, US President Obama imposed sanctions on Russian-occupied Crimea by executive order prohibiting exports of US goods and services to the region.[56]

On 16 February 2015, the EU increased its sanction list to cover 151 individuals and 37 entities.[57] Australia indicated that it would follow the EU in a new round of sanctions. If the EU sanctioned new Russian and Ukrainian entities then Australia would keep their sanctions in line with the EU.[citation needed]

On 18 February 2015, Canada added 37 Russian citizens and 17 Russian entities to its sanction list. Rosneft and the deputy minister of defence, Anatoly Antonov, were both sanctioned.[58][59] In June 2015 Canada added three individuals and 14 entities, including Gazprom.[60] Media suggested the sanctions were delayed because Gazprom was a main sponsor of the 2015 FIFA Women's World Cup then concluding in Canada.[61]

In September 2015, Ukraine sanctioned more than 388 individuals, over 105 companies and other entities. In accordance with the August 2015 proposals promulgated by the Security Service of Ukraine and the Order of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine No. 808-p dated 12 August 2015, Ukraine, on 2 September 2015, declared Russia an enemy of Ukraine. Also on 16 September 2015, Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko issued a decree that named nearly 400 individuals, more than 90 companies and other entities to be sanctioned for the Russia's "criminal activities and aggression against Ukraine."[62][63][64][65]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Ukrainian_crisis

 

 

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6 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Which source did you get that information from? As far as I can see, VDL is merely saying that nothing is off the table... which is not exactly the same as saying "NS2 won't be approved if Russia attacks Ukraine". If anything it's implying the possibility of such. It's been Biden that has been saying that, from what I have gathered.

To some degree, sure... but how are they currently faring in the absence of NS2, economically? As far as I know they are pulling in many billions just from oil exports alone using their current infrastructure. In addition to that, Europe imports 43% of its oil from Russia, so they (Europe), too, would be suffering if they went ahead and pulled the plug on the pipeline, which is why there is so much hesitance to do so. Importing oil/gas from elsewhere would further worsen the economy, for all.

Russia is also the top wheat/grain exporter, so they have some leverage there.

IMO, there is not going to be any outcome that won't involve significant conflict. This is not something that sanctions will solve. I just don't see it happening.

I'm the source of my own opinion. 

The only correct translation from diplomat into everyday language is the one I gave. Especially since she was the one who publicly described NS2 as a political project, which it truly is (clearly, bypassing Ukraine).  

You are, of course, entitled to your own interpretation, and diplomatic manner of formulating statements is not accidentally always striving to leave room for adjustments, but I don't doubt Putin has understood the only meaning that diplomatic statement can have (which is: keep acting like you can blackmail us and we will cost you billions and inflict you propaganda damage by reducing your clever project to a monument of your overestimation of your own abilities - NS2 was damn expensive and it can't be repurposed due to its politically chosen route.) 

EU wouldn't buy that much more natural gas once NS2 would be allowed to start, that's not the point, the point is that gas would arrive without going through Ukraine. And it has to be operational for years just to return the investment. The longer it sits idle, the costlier it becomes, not just financially, but especially in propaganda terms.   

Which is why Orban's announcement that Hungary wants to buy more Russian gas was so hilarious. Hungary can't make up for the looming loss of gas business even if they start turning Balaton into a hot tub by heating it with Russian gas. (Now that's a nice idea... almost as realistic as invading Ukraine with 100,000 men.)

 

All in all, Putin attempted to bully the complete West and especially the EU into giving him the importance he doesn't have. He was completely wrong in his assessment of the reactions to both his expansionist threats and his gas blackmail, both by top politicians and wide population.

I guess that's because he's got wrong data about the abilities of the European right-wing and American trumpers. His attempts seem like they count on putinists in the West being able to control the political decisions, economies and military in their countries.

Maybe he can't find enough courage to face the facts, or maybe he's surrounded with yes-men only who helped him start believing in own propaganda.

Summing it all up, I'm looking forward to continuation of solemn promises of sanctions yet unseen combined with visibly arming both Ukraine and Eastern Europe, to the teeth. These two sides of the same strategy are not conflicting. In fact, they very nicely add credibility to each other :) 

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1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I'm the source of my own opinion.

You didn't state it as an opinion. Generally if it's an opinion piece people will preface it with "In my opinion", not blatantly stating it as a fact.

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

The only correct translation from diplomat into everyday language is the one I gave. Especially since she was the one who publicly described NS2 as a political project, which it truly is (clearly, bypassing Ukraine).  

So in other words, you're conjecturing--you don't know.

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

You are, of course, entitled to your own interpretation,

I am merely going based off of what was stated with relation to your claim. You said that she "repeated" something that she didn't actually say, so she basically "repeated" something you're conjecturing that she meant as a subtext. 

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

EU wouldn't buy that much more natural gas once NS2 would be allowed to start, that's not the point, the point is that gas would arrive without going through Ukraine.

Considering that it would become available at a cheaper rate, I disagree. In my opinion, though, the Ukraine situation is not something that can be negotiated with in terms of sanctions, or money. At least not against Putin.

IMO, he has just as much leverage in this situation as those who are against him, which is why Germany is taking such a pacifist stance. They know just how much Europe relies on oil and wheat from Russia.

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I guess that's because he's got wrong data about the abilities of the European right-wing and American trumpers.

This is Putin we're talking about. I wager Russia has a much better idea on the state of things than we think. I suspect he's biding his time until post-Beijing-olympics.

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Maybe he can't find enough courage to face the facts, or maybe he's surrounded with yes-men only who helped him start believing in own propaganda.

OR--MAYBE--just MAYBE--he is smarter than we are giving him credit for. The man is an ex-KGB counterspy, ffs. If anybody is aware of the facts, it's him.

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21 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

It's the main problem with Germany in the NATO alliance.  They are more interested in maintaining business with Russia then being in line with the rest of the alliance.

Who are They?
You surely don't mean me or toast or everybody of the 83 millions who live in this country.
I think you mean those Putin adorers and there are, also in my mind, too many of them in Germany. And some of them are very influential. This is tragically a matter of fact.
But believe me, I am probably more angry about them than you are.

This is the result of decade long propaganda and manipulation efforts by the regime in Moskov. Money, bribe... etc. play a role as well. Many ordinary people fall into this trap because they are angry about something else. East Germans in particular are traditionally Russia friendly and confuse Putin with Russia. Btw., I have nothing against Russians. I worked with them here and there and they are quite nice people.
But Germany is, in my view, still a very stable and functioning democracy and as long as this is the case I stay optimistic. Free speech must be allowed if we like it or not.  

And those manipulations happen in all western countries. Helen of Annoy doesn't get tired to warn about that for years and she is right.
The USA are by far the most important NATO member and of course the heart and brain of the western world and therefore my main concern. Because without the USA we get a serious problem and not only in Europe but also in Australia, Japan, South-Korea...
If I google the key words 'Putin, Republicans, Russia, Ukraine' I get articles like these:

Putin barrels toward invading Ukraine, encouraged by Trump

Republican Rift on Ukraine Could Undercut U.S. Appeals to Allies

Republicans Are Split Over Ukraine, Threatening a Rare Bipartisan Consensus

The war of minds has already begun. If we stand together Putin will achieve nothing. If not unpredictable things will happen.

Edited by Katzenking
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1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

You didn't state it as an opinion. Generally if it's an opinion piece people will preface it with "In my opinion", not blatantly stating it as a fact.

It is a fact. If you need to name the source from which you got your obvious fact of the day, it was me. Your local grocer could have done it too, because it is that glaringly obvious. 

And avoiding facts is never a good idea. See Putin's example. His support in the West is not as strong as it was expected in Russian plans. There's no bunch of isolated fascist theocracies instead of the EU. There's no second term for Trump in the US.

Instead of changing strategy, he's pushing on like Kremlin's propaganda failure to catch critical mass of victims was a smashing success. In other words, do not judge the state of average mind by Russian trolling posts. (It was hilarious in my country, where putinist far-right got no significant votes in the elections, but they had social media 'likes' to 'prove' they were supposed to win :lol: )    

 

1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

 

OR--MAYBE--just MAYBE--he is smarter than we are giving him credit for. The man is an ex-KGB counterspy, ffs. If anybody is aware of the facts, it's him.

Well, he has painted himself in the corner, complete with that superhuman smarts of his. 

 

A bit of rant: 

Someone told you there was some superhuman wisdom in the way KGB worked? There wasn't. They were simply ruthless, just like the regime whose part they were. It's very easy to seem very capable if there's nothing and no one that can counter you, since you're the part of the mechanism of repression.

(For example, poisoning people. It doesn't take a genius to poison you, it only takes a murderer with a mindset of a murderer and guarantees of the regime for the murderer that he's allowed to murder people who happen to annoy the regime.) 

Putin can throw tantrums all he wants, but no one sane will ever give Russia the power it used to have as the result of chain of tragic historic events. 

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9 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It is a fact. If you need to name the source from which you got your obvious fact of the day, it was me. Your local grocer could have done it too, because it is that glaringly obvious. 

And avoiding facts is never a good idea. See Putin's example. His support in the West is not as strong as it was expected in Russian plans. There's no bunch of isolated fascist theocracies instead of the EU. There's no second term for Trump in the US.

Instead of changing strategy, he's pushing on like Kremlin's propaganda failure to catch critical mass of victims was a smashing success. In other words, do not judge the state of average mind by Russian trolling posts. (It was hilarious in my country, where putinist far-right got no significant votes in the elections, but they had social media 'likes' to 'prove' they were supposed to win :lol: )    

 

Well, he has painted himself in the corner, complete with that superhuman smarts of his. 

 

A bit of rant: 

Someone told you there was some superhuman wisdom in the way KGB worked? There wasn't. They were simply ruthless, just like the regime whose part they were. It's very easy to seem very capable if there's nothing and no one that can counter you, since you're the part of the mechanism of repression.

(For example, poisoning people. It doesn't take a genius to poison you, it only takes a murderer with a mindset of a murderer and guarantees of the regime for the murderer that he's allowed to murder people who happen to annoy the regime.) 

Putin can throw tantrums all he wants, but no one sane will ever give Russia the power it used to have as the result of chain of tragic historic events. 

The biggest facts that we can rely on is that we have enormous pro-russia and anti-russia propaganda... Russia and Nato can say whatever they want, pouring weapons in and out throwing sanctions and pointing fingers, the result is that the only peoples that suffering right now are the Ukrainians and the situation can become worse.

Nothing that Nato and Russia(obviously...) are doing is helping their situation at all. They are just brandishing a big sign above Ukraine written upon ''no mans land waiting to happen''.

Ukrainian have become the fulcrum of the leverage between the east and the west and they are paying the high price and it just can go worse if it continue to escalade. They will get the worse of hit whatever the outcome.

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2 hours ago, Katzenking said:

Who are They?

The they was more of the German government as a whole and not referring to every German.

It goes beyond just admirers of Putin in Germany.  The German economy isnt exactly the strongest it has been at the moment due to the coronavirus and I have seen a few articles saying how the German economy is on the verge of a recession.  Angering Putin and having him cut of natural gas and oil shipments to Germany would certainly push the German economy over the edge into full recession which would hurt the political careers of quite a few politicians who all seem interested in keeping their political careers over anything else.

Ultimately the German government is more interested in what they view is best for themselves in the short term, as most politicians do, instead of staying in line with the rest of NATO.  You cant count someone as a reliable ally when they are willing to go against the alliance for their own benefit.

I also have other issues with Germany, more specifically how they let their military degrade to such a high degree that it's basically non-existent.  Best example being how in 2018 only 4 out of 128 Germany's Eurofighter jets were suitable for combat.  Which is another aspect of being an unreliable ally as they want the protection that NATO provides but does little to nothing to add to that protection themselves.

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I see the situation like a reverse Cuban crisis, we can draw parallels between the two events :

For the Cuban crisis:

1) U.S. government had supported Batista, a former soldier and Cuban dictator

2) Batista is forcibly removed from power by a revolution, shutting US influences and putting in pro-Russian leader.

3) Bay of Pigs Invasion to turn the tide but failed, US still keep Guatanamo bay.

4) Cuba accept establishment of Russian missile base provocking a US menace to invade and mass troops making a blockade.

5) Third world war imminent but Soviet leader offer to remove the Cuban missiles in exchange for the U.S. promising not to invade Cuba. Cuban got busted with sanctions of his past bosses (US) and didn't get all the help needed for his new allies (URSS).

What is happening in Ukraine:

1) Russian government had supported President Viktor Yanukovych, a nice pro russian puppet.

2) Yanukovych is forcibly removed from power by a revolution, shutting Russia influences and putting in pro-NATO leader

3) Crimea Invasion to turn the tide but failed,  Russia still keep Crimea. 

4) Ukraine want to become NATO partner implicating establishment of Nato missile bases provocking a Russian menace to invade and mass troops making a blockade.

5) Third world war imminent but the rest still to be written ?

In both cases the citizen stuck between will feel the full blow of the situation..

Edited by Jon the frog
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hey Germany...

 

post-101621-0-86015400-1405614937_thumb.jpg

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1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It is a fact. 

But you just said it was an opinion.

Quote

If you need to name the source from which you got your obvious fact of the day, it was me. Your local grocer could have done it too, because it is that glaringly obvious. 

You claimed it was an opinion, now you're claiming it is a fact. Which is it? You're doing that dance of yours again where you act condescending after having your claims challenged by saying such nonsense like "Your local grocer could have done it too, because it is that glaringly obvious."

It's not really conducive to a constructive discussion.

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

And avoiding facts is never a good idea. 

Then why did you avoid linking to said "fact"? You claimed that VDL repeated a claim that she never actually made, then when questioned on it you said you were the source of your own opinion, but now you're saying that it's a fact...

Quote

See Putin's example. His support in the West is not as strong as it was expected in Russian plans. There's no bunch of isolated fascist theocracies instead of the EU. There's no second term for Trump in the US.

More conjecture that you will so eloquently dress up as being "facts that are glaringly obvious". You're allowed to have your own theories and opinions but please refrain from identifying them as facts.

Quote

Someone told you there was some superhuman wisdom in the way KGB worked? There wasn't. They were simply ruthless, just like the regime whose part they were. It's very easy to seem very capable if there's nothing and no one that can counter you, since you're the part of the mechanism of repression.

As far as I can tell, he appears to be aware of the potential counters ala the sanctions implemented as a result of the annexation of Crimea in 2014 but yet continues pushing his agenda anyway. They don't necessarily have superhuman wisdom, but they sure as hell do have a lot of very smart, resilient people.

Quote

(For example, poisoning people. It doesn't take a genius to poison you, it only takes a murderer with a mindset of a murderer and guarantees of the regime for the murderer that he's allowed to murder people who happen to annoy the regime.) 

No, but carrying it out in such a way to make the UN react like they did certainly takes a reasonable degree of intelligence, though.

Did they ever find out who did it, exactly, besides a blanket "Russia"? No. Does it make it likely that it was Russia? Yes, but the fact that they never figured out who the assassin was speaks volumes, imo, to their ability to keep specific information they want hidden actually kept secret.

Quote

Putin can throw tantrums all he wants, but no one sane will ever give Russia the power it used to have as the result of chain of tragic historic events. 

Tyrants don't necessarily require power given at the discretion of others. As past events have shown, tyrants simply take what they want, sometimes no matter what the cost is.

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@Nuclear Wessel We're not discussing. I just spent some of my time informing you that your opinion is under Russian propaganda influence. 

 

@Jon the frog If you look at this 20th century style, yes. But it's not 20th century anymore. There's no reason for Russia today to obsess over futile attempts at reconstructing the empire and insist it must be hostile against the rest of Europe. (With added Americans. Yes, I know how big is the US, but the question of Russian relations with their neighbours is completely European matter.)

What was wrong with Russia establishing friendly partnership with neighbours and NATO? Nothing was wrong with that.

Russia could live comfortably just from gas business with EU alone. The one Putin is about to destroy because... why, actually? Because Putin is projecting his own issues with territorial expansion on the EU and NATO? 

So bizarre.

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18 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

@Nuclear Wessel We're not discussing. I just spent some of my time informing you that your opinion is under Russian propaganda influence. 

Your opinion is noted, and dismissed.

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Guest Xetan
On 1/29/2022 at 12:46 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

We're not discussing. I just spent some of my time informing you that your opinion is under Russian propaganda influence. 

God damn, has this place always been so much like Reddit?

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15 hours ago, Xetan said:

God damn, has this place always been so much like Reddit?

There's always Facebook for those who want their Russian propaganda uncontested. 

 

To be fair, the verbal offensive against Germany and their strictly non-war mongering stance comes from two confusingly different, opposed sources. 

The first is Ukraine, which is understandable, they need all the weapons they can get and they were genuinely shocked when Germany did not change their policy of not exporting their weapons into war zones. Everyone who hastily agreed with Ukrainians should be excused, as well as Ukrainians, in my opinion. It will take a while before it sinks in that Germany giving weapons that will be used against Russia would give Russia propaganda advantage. While an early contingent of weapons from one country more or less doesn't change much, as long as there's enough all together. 

The second is Russia. They keep looking for any reason to blow it out of proportion and use it to disunite NATO, EU and West in general. So when someone's b****ing and moaning about Germany not being a reliable ally, just because Germany did not change their known, existing from before and completely reasonable policy, they've been tricked by Russian trolling. Or actually want to contribute to sowing division in the West, in which case I'd use this opportunity to repeat that they're sawing off the branch they're sitting on, personally. And that's not something a sane person would do.     

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2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

To be fair, the verbal offensive against Germany and their strictly non-war mongering stance comes from two confusingly different, opposed sources.

And the funny thing is that exactly these very same people always point a finger on Germany when the German military take something new into service, like a submarine or a dozen of backpacks with camouflage pattern for example. "They will continue the work of Hidlär!" They are preparing a war of aggression!", "Viertes Reich is comming soon", "They must be disarmed forever, they are evil by nature, I told ya!". Morons.

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1 hour ago, toast said:

And the funny thing is that exactly these very same people always point a finger on Germany when the German military take something new into service, like a submarine or a dozen of backpacks with camouflage pattern for example. "They will continue the work of Hidlär!" They are preparing a war of aggression!", "Viertes Reich is comming soon", "They must be disarmed forever, they are evil by nature, I told ya!". Morons.

Yes, that's exactly what irritated me in this thread too. 

But it comes from political platforms made for morons, they don't need logic or consistency. 

So don't worry, no sane person will ever think there's a nation evil by nature or that there's anything wrong in trying to actually stop a war. 

And as someone whose country was at war, I know the importance of field hospitals and treating the wounded. German doctors already saved a lot of Ukrainian lives and improved the quality of life for the severely wounded. If that's not the ultimate proof of friendship and good intentions, I don't know what is.

   

 

Simple people are used to simple scenarios, they can't handle nuance or complex situations. And the situation with Ukraine is complex. 

The reason why Putin insists on talking to Biden instead of European leaders (despite Russian economy being dead without Europe) is renewing the division between the US and the EU (which was something Trump created) and to paint Putin's territorial expansion attempts as the result of rivalry between two superpowers. Only Russia is not superpower, Ukraine is independent country and the EU leaders have no problems with Biden talking to Putin too. Why not? It's not Trump. Fortunately. 

Putin's bizarre 'ultimatum' (withdrawal of NATO to pre-1997 situation with written promise of no new members) was dismissed and now Lavrov wants to give that ultimatum again, like it wasn't dismissed already. It was strange, the way Putin postures as if his assets have taken and/or kept control in each targeted country. And now this weirdness with giving bizarre ultimatum twice. Because it wasn't laughed away loud enough the first time? Why not once a month?

In reality, Putin can't just wish NATO away. He can't finance his adventures without EU gas money. If he manages to get Russia cut off international banking, Russia will depend on China for any financial transactions. Not to mention what disaster would invading Ukraine be. Which reminds me his Belarus clone promised the other day the destruction of Lithuanian statehood or something like that. Makes me wonder what those around these two great leaders think lately.  

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3 hours ago, toast said:

And the funny thing is that exactly these very same people always point a finger on Germany when the German military take something new into service, like a submarine or a dozen of backpacks with camouflage pattern for example. "They will continue the work of Hidlär!" They are preparing a war of aggression!", "Viertes Reich is comming soon", "They must be disarmed forever, they are evil by nature, I told ya!". Morons.

Because my interest is mostly Brexit (hey, I live in the UK, so it affects me) I read a lot about it to try to understand why the Little Englanders are prepared to endure poverty and isolation just to be separate from Europe - they don't understand it is our own continent and culture (which is due to the English Empire being once world wide and the teaching we had as children, I think).

Because the economic damage Brexit is doing to the UK is now becoming undeniable, and our Brexit leaders (Farage and Bojo being prime examples) are being exposed as pretty psychopathic, most of our MSM is now slowly turning against Brexit thought still looking for scapegoats (wrong type of Brexit, 5th column remainers, EU red tape, etc).

But the Daily Express, which I occasionally dip into, is Little England Central. I recommend visiting the Express readers comments only if you have adequate emotional support, and make sure your visit is brief, otherwise you may experience serious psychological disorders and possible nosebleeds.

Here they are re-fighting WW2, but with some dizzying new dimensions- the Huns are bad, obviously, but also good because they will break up the EU because they want to sell their cars to the UK; the French are bad, because they are subservient to the UK and Germany, but also won't buy our fish and won't supply us with electricity; the countries in Eastern Europe are really bad because they won't come to the UK to drive our lorries or do other jobs like help us out on our farms or factories; and countries like Turkey and the Middle East are the absolute worst, because we "Got Brexit Done" to keep them out, but now we will have to let them into the UK to help us out.

The Little Englanders will never have empathy for their own continent, Europe, until they stop fighting WW2 in their heads.

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, The Silver Shroud said:

But the Daily Express, which I occasionally dip into, is Little England Central. I recommend visiting the Express readers comments only if you have adequate emotional support, and make sure your visit is brief, otherwise you may experience serious psychological disorders and possible nosebleeds.

Thanks for the hint, I think I will become a frequent visitor of the Daily Express comment section as I like to look into bizarre and weird minds. And yes, I would accept some nosebleed up to a certain level.

Quote

Here they are re-fighting WW2, but with some dizzying new dimensions- the Huns are bad, obviously, but also good because they will break up the EU because they want to sell their cars to the UK; the French are bad, because they are subservient to the UK and Germany, but also won't buy our fish and won't supply us with electricity; the countries in Eastern Europe are really bad because they won't come to the UK to drive our lorries or do other jobs like help us out on our farms or factories; and countries like Turkey and the Middle East are the absolute worst, because we "Got Brexit Done" to keep them out, but now we will have to let them into the UK to help us out. The Little Englanders will never have empathy for their own continent, Europe, until they stop fighting WW2 in their heads.

So true. And the shadow fight is present sometimes here as well. I faced a lot of confused thoughts and accusations, but all of these totally out of context, here just because Im a German. But I dont care, I know how I am. I think the most of these douchebags where never here after 1945 and later on. But they are generally not interested to rethink their way of thinking and their kind looking at things because it would crack their enemy image, the enemy image which dad+granddad teached them. During my work for a global player Ive met people from around the globe and Ive recognized that every country has very nice and smart people but all these countries also host morons and °holes. (and hell, a lot of ladies in Israel are incredible beautifull and nice!)

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Its not on UK news but Russia has been setting up field hospitals and transporting in blood supplies:

 

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10 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Its not on UK news but Russia has been setting up field hospitals and transporting in blood supplies:

 

48 Iskandar ballistic missile launchers are either in Belarus, Crimea, or near the Ukranian border.  Recent videos of military equipment movements have shown increased amount of VDV units being moved to Ukrainian border.  For anyone who doesn't know VDV are Russian paratroopers, they generally get the best equipment and are highly trained, and besides from doing air assaults also frequently act as shock troops in assaults.  Recent videos have also shown Russian pipeline troops being moved to the border, pipeline troops for those that dont know are part of the logistical forces of the Russian military.  For Russia's military size they have relatively few trucks/vehicles for logistics besides trains and they have units that lay down temporary pipelines to fuel armored and mechanized units as they advance.  To top it off the leader of Belarus recently gave a speech saying how Ukraine needs to be and will be brought back into the Slavic fold and how Lithuania needs to have its statehood revoked and to return to Russia and earlier today the Belarus reserves are being called up.

War is coming and is probably unavoidable at this point.

Edited by DarkHunter
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WION, lol! Whats next, The Watchtower News? Its true, its true, Ive heard its all true!

Quote

Newslaundry stated in a 2020 article that "Notwithstanding its occasional forays into hyperbole, WION is a rather respectable news channel". However, it also criticised Sudhir Chaudhary for what it called Islamophobia and biased reporting.[21]

In 2021, the appointment of M. J. Akbar, an Indian journalist and politician who has been accused of sexual assault by numerous women, to WION as an "editorial consultant" was met with controversy, with more than 150 journalists signing a statement demanding that Akbar be removed by WION and Zee News as well as barred from working in any newsroom by the Editors Guild of India.[22]

Wiki

 

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1 hour ago, toast said:

WION, lol! Whats next, The Watchtower News? Its true, its true, Ive heard its all true!

 

Since you have problems with Wion, who wasnt even the first to report it there are these.

"Moscow has put what appear to be final preparations for an invasion of Ukraine by sending medical units to the front, moving to a level of readiness that it hadn’t reached in past buildups, according to Western defense officials."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/russia-says-it-sees-little-scope-for-optimism-in-u-s-proposals-on-ukraine-11643290065

"Ukrainian military intelligence said Russia has deployed troops from its central and eastern regions to its western border "on a permanent basis." At the end of December and in January, Russia has been moving "stockpiles of ammunition, field hospitals and security services" to the border, it said, which according to Ukraine "confirms the preparation for offensive operations.""

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/01/18/europe/ukraine-intelligence-russia-military-build-up-intl/index.html

"The US has seen indications that Russia has positioned supplies of blood near Ukraine's borders, two senior US defense officials told CNN Saturday, as part of its accumulation of medical supplies, troops and military equipment in the area that US officials have said could signal plans for an invasion."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/01/29/politics/us-official-russia-ukraine-blood-supplies/index.html

Can find more, it's not really talked about on televised news yet but tons of articles online about it, but attacking the source itself is probably easier then dealing with the fact that Russia is nearly finished the build up to invade Ukraine.

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