Russia Masses Military Equipment Near Ukraine Borders: A Prologue to WWIII?

[+Nuclear Wessel]

2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Ukraine is independent country, they need support but they are not NATO member yet. Inviting actual NATO forces wouldn't stop the invasion, but it would create an impression that Putin's paranoia is justified.

I have been reading some claims that Finland and Sweden want to instate Ukraine into NATO, effective immediately. 

If that is true and if that happens, may “God” have mercy on the world. That would push him over the edge and we are ****ed.

[Helen of Annoy]

5 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Sanctions just seem like they will obviously not do anything.

Of course Putin will take the short term loss form sanctions so that he can get a long term gain from conquering Ukraine. 

Stopping all trade and transactions will do a lot. These sanctions are the real ones. 

[+Nuclear Wessel]

1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Stopping all trade and transactions will do a lot. These sanctions are the real ones. 

Remember when he said sanctions were an act of war? If they are severe enough wouldn’t this just enrage him further? IMO he could take it out on the poor Ukrainians, and I would not put it past him at all to then shift accountability for him demolishing Ukraine to the US for imposing these sanctions, citing the imposition of sanctions as intervening and thus warranting strong retaliatory measures. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Nuclear Wessel

[Helen of Annoy]

3 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Remember when he said sanctions were an act of war? If they are severe enough wouldn’t this just enrage him further? IMO he could take it out on the poor Ukrainians, and I would not put it past him at all to then shift accountability for him demolishing Ukraine to the US for imposing these sanctions, citing the imposition of sanctions as intervening and thus warranting strong retaliatory measures. 

I do remember that. (One of the reasons why I go berserk when the "sanctions can't do crap" narrative is propagated.)

If he was sane, mere promise of sanctions would stop him. 

Since he's not sane, nothing will make him stop voluntarily, but sanctions will cripple his economy which will keep undermining his ability to keep with aggressions. 

Sanctions will help create environment in Russia that favours changes in the sense of getting rid of Putin, no matter how dangerous it is. 

If he doesn't throw the first nuke in the meantime, of course. It would be safer to get him away from the nuke switch right now. 

[spartan max2]

16 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

At this stage and especially until yesterday, before the invasion physically started, it would be counter-productive. 

Ukraine is independent country, they need support but they are not NATO member yet. Inviting actual NATO forces wouldn't stop the invasion, but it would create an impression that Putin's paranoia is justified. 

It looks weird, but it is necessary to follow the actual laws. There's no "NATO aggressor" in Ukraine, but there is Putler's aggressor force attacking Ukraine. 

I feel like the only way to deal with a bully is to have more force than him. NATO certainly has more force than Russia 

I can see some of the diplomat concerns you mentioned but it sort of just seems silly to me. We saw how Putin acted with Crimea and Georgia. 

Without having troops in Ukraine I can't see how there would possibly of been any other outcome. 

[Helen of Annoy]

14 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

I have been reading some claims that Finland and Sweden want to instate Ukraine into NATO, effective immediately. 

If that is true and if that happens, may “God” have mercy on the world. That would push him over the edge and we are ****ed.

Finland and Sweden are not NATO members. They're friends of NATO, but they are not bound by any agreement. 

There was - quite logically - suggested in both Finland and Sweden that they might as well become actual members. Why not. 

Accepting Ukraine, skipping the usual procedure, is tempting but it would be counter-productive too. 

First Putler has to show real face, get real sanctions, get real consequences at home, only then it will be possible to continue with the integrations.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

3 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I feel like the only way to deal with a bully is to have more force than him. NATO certainly has more force than Russia 

I can see some of the diplomat concerns you mentioned but it sort of just seems silly to me. We saw how Putin acted with Crimea and Georgia. 

Without having troops in Ukraine I can't see how there would possibly of been any other outcome. 

Putin is already feeling like a cornered animal because of NATO. If NATO were to push on him I guarantee he would hold true to his promises of showing them something they have never seen. 

Also, as an aside, I hate Emmanuel Macron. Really—coming away from the table with Putin and saying sh!t like “crisis averted” only to have this rhetoric corrected not once, but TWICE by the Kremlin? What an idiot that guy is. He would not be getting my vote if I were a Franc. 

[Myles]

This could escalate very quickly.  We will start to suffer immediately in the USA.  Prices are already going up.  

[Helen of Annoy]

3 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I feel like the only way to deal with a bully is to have more force than him. NATO certainly has more force than Russia 

I can see some of the diplomat concerns you mentioned but it sort of just seems silly to me. We saw how Putin acted with Crimea and Georgia. 

Without having troops in Ukraine I can't see how there would possibly of been any other outcome. 

Have faith in Ukrainians. They can defend themselves. They need no troops, they need support: diplomatic, logistic (that includes weapons of all sorts), intelligence, humanitarian, etc. 

It's very important that their struggle is perfectly clean - no argument in favour of Putler's lies and paranoia. 

Ukraine fights against Putler as an independent country. 

[spartan max2]

1 minute ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Putin is already feeling like a cornered animal because of NATO. If NATO were to push on him I guarantee he would hold true to his promises of showing them something they have never seen. 

Also, as an aside, I hate Emmanuel Macron. Really—coming away from the table with Putin and saying sh!t like “crisis averted” only to have this rhetoric corrected not once, but TWICE by the Kremlin? What an idiot that guy is. He would not be getting my vote if I were a France. 

That's what I'm saying. This man is a bully you can't appease him. 

The only way to stop a bully is with more force.

The alternative of trying to not p*** him off is what we have now where he will just keep slowly taking post Soviet nations 

[+Nuclear Wessel]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

That's what I'm saying. This man is a bully you can't appease him. 

The only way to stop a bully is with more force.

The alternative of trying to not p*** him off is what we have now where he will just keep slowly taking post Soviet nations 

Yes, but by standing up to that bully we would be killing ourselves.

Somebody on the inside will probably kill him. My guess is poisoning. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Nuclear Wessel

[spartan max2]

2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Have faith in Ukrainians. They can defend themselves. They need no troops, they need support: diplomatic, logistic (that includes weapons of all sorts), intelligence, humanitarian, etc. 

It's very important that their struggle is perfectly clean - no argument in favour of Putler's lies and paranoia. 

Ukraine fights against Putler as an independent country. 

I certainly hope you're right and that they succeed. 

[Helen of Annoy]

2 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Putin is already feeling like a cornered animal because of NATO. If NATO were to push on him I guarantee he would hold true to his promises of showing them something they have never seen. 

Also, as an aside, I hate Emmanuel Macron. Really—coming away from the table with Putin and saying sh!t like “crisis averted” only to have this rhetoric corrected not once, but TWICE by the Kremlin? What an idiot that guy is. He would not be getting my vote if I were a Franc. 

What diplomats say and what they think don't have to be the same or even similar things.

 

There was no realistic reason for anyone in Russia to feel cornered with NATO. As their general said too. 

Only because Putin planned expansion NATO becomes a problem. 

In case he was sane, Russia could have joined NATO too.  

[+Nuclear Wessel]

Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

There was no realistic reason for anyone in Russia to feel cornered with NATO. As their general said too. 

Yep, which is why I said “feeling”. He was only feeling that way because he wanted to do exactly what you mentioned—fulfilling his wet dream of the new USSR. 

[odas]

20 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Thank you, odas. I really appreciate it. You're true gentleman.

But I don't want you banned along with me. Let them have me alone banned. (I've got stuff to do around the house anyway ) Use it as the proof who they are and who they're working for.  

I know Helen. Nothing has ever changed. They will always have an excuse and they will always twist words and history.

Ukraine is not Putins goal. You and I know it. We have to stand together in our area. We have to put our small differences byside otherwise we are done too. You know what I am talking about.

Seeing the Ukrainian children running to safety, towards another country as refugees, brings back bad memories.

The armchair generals here will never understand it.

[odas]

19 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Putin is already feeling like a cornered animal because of NATO. If NATO were to push on him I guarantee he would hold true to his promises of showing them something they have never seen. 

Also, as an aside, I hate Emmanuel Macron. Really—coming away from the table with Putin and saying sh!t like “crisis averted” only to have this rhetoric corrected not once, but TWICE by the Kremlin? What an idiot that guy is. He would not be getting my vote if I were a Franc. 

Yes, reminds me of another french president. Mitterand. Spring 1992, Sarajevo. He "visits" Bosnia and sais" all is good, no serbian attacks that I could see". 

[L.A.T.1961]

47 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

I have been reading some claims that Finland and Sweden want to instate Ukraine into NATO, effective immediately. 

If that is true and if that happens, may “God” have mercy on the world. That would push him over the edge and we are ****ed.

They could be made special temporary members of NATO and the US could lend them a Nuclear missile sub. 

[+Nuclear Wessel]

Just now, L.A.T.1961 said:

They could be made special temporary members of NATO and the US could lend them a Nuclear missile sub. 

That would be interesting, but that would likely be interpreted as a proxy attack and Putin would rain down nuclear hell on the US. 

[Saru]

Thread cleaned

Enough with the personal insults and abusive comments, folks.

[L.A.T.1961]

1 minute ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

That would be interesting, but that would likely be interpreted as a proxy attack and Putin would rain down nuclear hell on the US. 

Possibly but Putin threatened anybody thinking of helping Ukraine this morning with ultimate force, or similar. 

So he is already thinking about it.

[Helen of Annoy]

5 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

Possibly but Putin threatened anybody thinking of helping Ukraine this morning with ultimate force, or similar. 

So he is already thinking about it.

I think you're right.

(It's my opinion that it was simply sane to not set a nuclear war right away, but if he's going to start it anyway, then there's no point in restraint anymore.)

[Helen of Annoy]

14 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

They could be made special temporary members of NATO and the US could lend them a Nuclear missile sub. 

Or simply lend them some nukes, make sure Russians know about it, act as if they're imagining stuff again.

I'm just daydreaming, of course.  

[L.A.T.1961]

Banks losing trust in Russia ?

Major buyers of Russian oil struggle with bank guarantees

 At least three major buyers of Russian oil have been unable to open letters of credit from Western banks to cover purchases on Thursday, four trading sources said citing market uncertainty after Russia invaded Ukraine.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/exclusive-major-buyers-russian-oil-struggle-with-bank-guarantees-sources-2022-02-24/?rpc=401&

 

[Helen of Annoy]

25 minutes ago, odas said:

I know Helen. Nothing has ever changed. They will always have an excuse and they will always twist words and history.

Ukraine is not Putins goal. You and I know it. We have to stand together in our area. We have to put our small differences byside otherwise we are done too. You know what I am talking about.

I know and I will. 

 

25 minutes ago, odas said:

Seeing the Ukrainian children running to safety, towards another country as refugees, brings back bad memories.

The armchair generals here will never understand it.

What Putin can't or doesn't want to understand is that he's already lost this war.  

[DarkHunter]

Bit old but reports of Ukranian Mig-29s intercepting Russian Su-35s over Kiev.  Fighting seems to be intense and there seems to be significant material losses on both sides.