Russia Masses Military Equipment Near Ukraine Borders: A Prologue to WWIII?

[spartan max2]

20 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

Was that the goal? Are there any actually statements by Putin to this effect? 
 

To my understanding, Putin’s demands more or less reflected his goals in Ukraine. Ukrainian neutrality, recognition of Crimea as a Russian state and the independence of the Donbas region states. 
 

It’s still unclear to me why Zelensky seems ready to make concessions now if Russia is losing. But whatever, everyone will be better off if they can reach a peace deal. 

What do you believe Putin's goal was sir? 

If you only believe what Putin's says than their goal was to "de-natzify" the nation lol. 

I suppose it's up to you to decide if you believe what Putin says. Ukraine was already neutral and if he wanted to just take the Donbas region than he would of only moved troops there instead of failing to take Kyiv for weeks.

As for coming to the table that dosen't mean much to me at this stage until I see something concrete. In war there is alot of posturing and trying to make people look bad with diplomacy. I could also see Zelensky wanting to avoid a years long conflict. 

They won in that Russia won't alright take the nation, but there could still be years of fighting if some sort of face saving isn't done.

Edited April 1, 2022 by spartan max2

[DarkHunter]

25 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

Was that the goal? Are there any actually statements by Putin to this effect? 

In the speech Putin gave moments before the invasion started he said

"The purpose of this operation is to protect people who, for eight years now, have been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime. To this end, we will seek to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine, as well as bring to trial those who perpetrated numerous bloody crimes against civilians, including against citizens of the Russian Federation."

It seems pretty clear that he meant to overthrow the Ukranian government, the whole bringing to trial part especially since Putin said the Ukranian government and military was full of Nazis.

Full Putin speech, but it's broken up into sections with commentary between them.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/world/europe/putin-ukraine-speech.amp.html

Edited April 1, 2022 by DarkHunter

[el midgetron]

14 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

But your links provide the answer.

Thus far Putin has refused to engage in diplomacy directly.  Carrot and stick.

So Zelensky is like begging Putin to accept Ukraine’s concessions to Putin’s demands? As the Russian military is failing? 

[el midgetron]

14 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

What do you believe Putin's goal was sir? 

If you only believe what Putin's says than their goal was to "de-natzify" the nation lol. 

Well, Putin has stated more goals than that, certainly you are aware of this? I already listed three such reasons.

In the realm of speculation there is a range of “goals” and the sky’s the limit. 

 

[spartan max2]

1 minute ago, el midgetron said:

Well, Putin has stated more goals than that, certainly you are aware of this? I already listed three such reasons.

In the realm of speculation there is a range of “goals” and the sky’s the limit. 

 

Okay.

What do you believe Putin's goal were with the invasion ?

And do you believe most of what Putin says?

Edited April 1, 2022 by spartan max2

[el midgetron]

15 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

In the speech Putin gave moments before the invasion started he said

"The purpose of this operation is to protect people who, for eight years now, have been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime. To this end, we will seek to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine, as well as bring to trial those who perpetrated numerous bloody crimes against civilians, including against citizens of the Russian Federation."

It seems pretty clear that he meant to overthrow the Ukranian government, the whole bringing to trial part especially since Putin said the Ukranian government and military was full of Nazis.

Full Putin speech, but it's broken up into sections with commentary between them.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/world/europe/putin-ukraine-speech.amp.html

I think that is primarily referencing the Donbas region as well as the Nazi elements like Azov who are accused of crimes against ethnic Ukrainians. 

[DarkHunter]

Just now, el midgetron said:

I think that is primarily referencing the Donbas region as well as the Nazi elements like Azov who are accused of crimes against ethnic Ukrainians. 

So Putin saying previously that the Ukranian government and military is full of Nazis and blaming them for crimes committed in the Donbas region while moments before an invasion saying they will bring to trial those who perpetrated these alleged crimes while having a large percentage of the military force that invaded Ukraine try to capture Kyiv all means that he really just meant he was going after Azov in the Donbas region.

That is completely and utterly ridiculous and borderline delusional.

[Herr Falukorv]

5 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

I think that is primarily referencing the Donbas region as well as the Nazi elements like Azov who are accused of crimes against ethnic Ukrainians. 

the azov are like 8-900 guys... there are 44 million people in ukraine..

[el midgetron]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Okay.

What do you believe Putin's goal were with the invasion ?

And do you believe most of what Putin says?

I think if Putin makes a list of demands, those demands have relevance to his goals. 
 

I already listed three of Putin’s primary demands.
 

If we can’t even believe in Putin’s demands, then what’s the point of being willing to concede to them?

[el midgetron]

4 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

So Putin saying previously that the Ukranian government and military is full of Nazis and blaming them for crimes committed in the Donbas region while moments before an invasion saying they will bring to trial those who perpetrated these alleged crimes while having a large percentage of the military force that invaded Ukraine try to capture Kyiv all means that he really just meant he was going after Azov in the Donbas region.

That is completely and utterly ridiculous and borderline delusional.

No, Azov was not limited to the Donbas conflict. They had a major base in Mariupol. The Ukrainian Nazi element is throughout Ukraine. C14 was patrolling the streets of Kyiv. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

16 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

I think that is primarily referencing the Donbas region as well as the Nazi elements like Azov who are accused of crimes against ethnic Ukrainians. 

Occult, you need to log out and log back in again, you’re posting as Midge, that’s the account you use to argue American Politics, not European ones.

[DarkHunter]

1 minute ago, el midgetron said:

No, Azov was not limited to the Donbas conflict. They had a major base in Mariupol. The Ukrainian Nazi element is throughout Ukraine. C14 was patrolling the streets of Kyiv. 

So you believe the Russian statement that the Ukranian government and military is full of Nazis.  Which than also implies you probably support the Russian invasion of Ukraine.  

You also ok with Russian soldiers raping girls as young as 14, executing fathers infront of their families than raping the mother and daughters infront of the survivors, of just straight up executing Ukranian civilians.  Russia is using occupation tactics very similar to what the Nazis did in their occupied territories during WW2.

[Wepwawet]

I'll do a bit of analysis of what Putin actually stated, and comments made since the fighting began.

Putin saying that he wants Ukraine to recognise that they have lost Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk is an indication that he, at least in his public statement, had no intention of taking all of Ukraine at all, though with the caveat that his history lesson could be seen as subtext that he was going to take at least the old Novorossia, though this was not stated. However, war always changes things, and attention should have been paid to the comments Putin made more than a week ago that the Ukrainians were in danger of loosing the south of their country. I believe he made this statement in the forlorn hope that they would negotiate in a meaningfull way, but they have refused to do that since 2014, and it should be pointed out that Kiev has always refused to even speak to the leaders of the DNR and LPR, surely a priority. A crucial comment was made by Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova earlier this week. She stated that the time had gone for Ukraine to keep the south of their country. Add to that the setting up of a Russian administration in Kherson and the adoption of the ruble, and maybe the declaration of the "People's Republic of Kherson" soon, and we should be under no allusions that the Russian offensive will not stop until, at least in the south, until they reach the border with Romania. So, the subtext of Putin's history lesson can now I think be seen as having become a definite aim, and Novorossia, or at least the territory it encompased, will pass back into Russian control, and probably become fully a part of Russia again. It is simply not feasable for Russia to go so far and stop, and if they did and left Odessa, at least, under the control of Kiev, I think Putin will be defenestrated.

The part of Putin's aims dealing with "de-natzification and de-militarization" are causing some issues with interpretation. The main issue is that this is seen as him indicating that Russian forces will occupy all of Ukraine to enact a programme of "re-education". I do not think this is what he meant at all, I think he actually meant that he will physically destroy the nationalist battalions, not least because he knows that trying to re-educate a very hostile population in Galicia is simply not worth the effort. De-militarization is the easiest to work out as it simply means that the Ukrainian armed forces are to be beaten and disbanded, perhaps replaced by a border force with more weapons than the police, but not much more. Both of these aims are taking place right now. Azov have lost huge amounts of men at Mariupol, and will loose even more before the city is fully taken. The other nationalist battalions, parts of Azov, Aidar and Donbass, are being ruduced in the meat grinder that the northwest of the Donbass has become, along with the Ukrainian army, their best part. So those two aims do not entail driving to Lvov to root out nazis, but to destroy their armed formations and those of the Army on the battlefield east of the Dnieper. Yeah, I know, "Victory at Kiev" and the Russians are "on the run", just wait and see, probably not by this Sunday as I thought, but sometime next week. It would be far to bold to predict a new Cannae, and such predictions can come back and bite you, but a titanic battle is coming, the like of which has not been seen since the destruction of Army Group Center.

[Grey Area]

31 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

So Zelensky is like begging Putin to accept Ukraine’s concessions to Putin’s demands? As the Russian military is failing? 

If you say so, they were your sources, I’m sure you read them thoroughly.

[L.A.T.1961]

1 hour ago, el midgetron said:

 

It’s still unclear to me why Zelensky seems ready to make concessions now if Russia is losing. But whatever, everyone will be better off if they can reach a peace deal. 

Zelensky has not made concessions until a deal is made and that still looks a long way off. He has made it clear that some topics might be discussed and other off the table. 

As far as Putin is concerned I still think that any outcome can be spun as a victory by him and the Russian media will be instructed to repeat that message. 

Onlookers will make up their own minds. 

[Herr Falukorv]

22 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

No, Azov was not limited to the Donbas conflict. They had a major base in Mariupol. The Ukrainian Nazi element is throughout Ukraine. C14 was patrolling the streets of Kyiv. 

How can it be major if its not even 1% of the ukrainian army???

[Herr Falukorv]

24 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

No, Azov was not limited to the Donbas conflict. They had a major base in Mariupol. The Ukrainian Nazi element is throughout Ukraine. C14 was patrolling the streets of Kyiv. 

In ukraines latest election ALL of the right wing parties combined didnt even get 3% of the votes......

[Helen of Annoy]

In reality, Zelensky made it clear that any concession would have to be confirmed in referendum first. 

Which means there will be no concessions.  

Local cease-fires is what Ukraine is negotiating, to save civilians. It's somewhat working. Negotiating the actual large-scale situation shows no signs of any progress, because it is impossible as long as Putin insists on essentially making decisions for Ukraine. 

In the first weeks of war, even that Yanukovich ghoul showed up in Belarus and gave few pompous statements, as if he seriously expected to be reinstated. That's what Putin wants. And that's what he can't have. And that's just one small detail showing just how delusional Russians and their puppets are. 

They miscalculated every single thing.  

 

By the way, it's of course Putin's propaganda that Ukraine is Nazi. Recently, anyone who doesn't agree with him, is simply called a Nazi. It's Putin's brainwashing trick, where he attempts to abuse the WWII symbolic to his advantage, paying no attention to the fact that the only Nazi in this story is him.   

[Helen of Annoy]

And since some people need more information about Azov battalion, here's an update. 

(Yes, it's Ukrainian source, yes, it's in English)

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3446014-azov-regiment-enemy-loses-tanks-company-of-soldiers-daily-in-mariupol.html

"Mariupol has been under siege since March 1. Currently, our troops still hold the city, but partially. The enemy has partially entrenched in the town. When we counted its forces about a week ago, it was about 14,000 Russian servicemen of so-called ‘LPR/DPR’ and mercenaries such as Chechens who are fighting on Instagram, and battalions of private military company. At the moment, our forces continue to destroy the enemy. Every day, the enemy loses up to four tanks, or sometimes even more, and a platoon or a company of soldiers," Chief of Staff of the Azov Regiment, Captain Bohdan Krotevych,

...

Krotevych noted that he had seen a lot in the war as a soldier, but the crimes committed by Russian invaders were absolutely horrible.

 

[Helen of Annoy]

And this was just made public, it is important and it describes the phenomenon seen in this tread too, perfectly. 

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3446155-russia-preparing-largescale-information-attack-against-ukraine-osint-group.html

After a series of failed attempts to capture parts of Ukraine in various directions, Russia apparently decided to launch a large-scale information campaign to discredit Ukraine at the international level.

1. Persistently accusing the Ukrainian military of the ill-treatment of Russian POWs in the Russian media and through loyal Western platforms. The accusations will be accompanied by staged video and photo material, where the “Ukrainian forces” allegedly mutilate Russian prisoners of war.

...

2. Pursuing efforts to dehumanize Ukraine and the Ukrainians, accusing the country of failing to stop the bloodshed since 2014 feeling absolutely no guilt for its citizens who have been dying in conflict throughout this time.

3. Shaping up a narrative about Ukraine allegedly staging hoax video reports about the participation of Russian conscripts in the war, claiming that it’s all manipulation. 

...

4. Pursuing the narrative about Ukraine-based “biological weapon labs,” which has already been criticized and debunked multiple times.

...

5. Unconditionally continuing to cultivate the narrative about “neo-Nazis” in Ukraine. 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Helen of Annoy

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Maybe Zylinski wants to get Putin at the negotiating table to have a go at assassination via pencil. 

[+and-then]

4 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Maybe because he cares for the lives of the citizens ? Or is that a totally foreign concept to you ?

I'm sure that he understands that if Putin WANTS eastern Ukraine and is determined to get it, he WILL have it eventually.  Perhaps if an agreement is made, thousands fewer Ukrainians may perish.  It's a bitter pill but not as bitter as simply rolling over and giving the evil little SOB everything, uncontested.

[Setton]

4 hours ago, el midgetron said:

So, Putin’s demands will “leave Ukraine in a strategically better position than before the war”? Do you guys just make this stuff up on the spot? Now Putin’s demands are a “good deal” for Ukraine? They will be “better off”? Wtf have they been fighting for then? 

Not at all. Buy Ukraine isn't agreeing to Putin's demands. They're making their own offer. The current offer on the table keeps Ukraine neutral, but by having western powers act as guarantors. So next time Russia tries to invade, they'll be fighting the west. Kind of like that NATO thing Vlad was terrified of Ukraine joining...

Ceding territory is a concession and I'm sure completely worth humiliating one's own army and guaranteeing the collapse of one's economy.

But Ukraine will give up a nuclear arsenal! Which it has never had. Or expressed an intent to develop.

So in short, Ukraine is offering to end the war with better equipment and more of it, better alliances and a severely weakened enemy. And in exchange they'll let Russia control some territory they already controlled before the invasion.

Which doesn't mean the rest of the world will let them off with an illegal occupation.

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Maybe Zylinski wants to get Putin at the negotiating table to have a go at assassination via pencil. 

[el midgetron]

3 hours ago, Grey Area said:

If you say so, they were your sources, I’m sure you read them thoroughly.

I was trying to characterize your position, That Putin was hiding in his bedroom, losing the war and that’s why Zelensky is making promises to make concessions. At least that’s how I understand your position.