Russia Masses Military Equipment Near Ukraine Borders: A Prologue to WWIII?

[Black Red Devil]

4 hours ago, Occult1 said:

You forget India. It's obvious by now that they are leaning towards Russia despite strong U.S. pressure.

India Plans $2 Billion More Of Exports To Russia: Report

https://www.outlookindia.com/business/india-plans-2-billion-more-of-exports-to-russia-report-news-191289

China and Russia are not only economic allies. They are also strategically aligned against NATO expansion.

They are engaged in substantial efforts to contest existing international architecture while building alternative infrastructure.

Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians

Ukraine: Widespread Use of Cluster Munitions

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions

 

War crimes of the armed forces and security forces of Ukraine: torture and inhumane treatment

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian volunteer forces

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

 

Ukrainian Nationalist Volunteers Committing 'ISIS-Style' War Crimes

https://www.newsweek.com/evidence-war-crimes-committed-ukrainian-nationalist-volunteers-grows-269604

India is a part of the QUAD together with the USA, Japan and Australia and has high interests in maintaining this (mainly) military alliance because of the growing influence of China in the region.  The only reason they try to be neutral with Russia is because the supply of military equipment.  If push comes to shove I'm pretty sure they'll turn their back on Russia at the blink of an eye.

Your HRW and Newsweek links all refer to the civil war that was taking place in Donbas between the Ukraine Govt and Russian backed seperatists between 2014-2015 after which it settled into a static phase until Putin decided it was time to pull out the false flag again. 

The ones initially responsible for starting the conflict were the Russian seperatists.  No genocide was ever committed against Russian minorities by Ukraine prior to the conflict and war crimes were committed on both sides during the two years. From your Amnesty link the Ukrainians told not to lower themselves to the Russians:

The Ukrainian authorities must not replicate the lawlessness and abuses that have prevailed in areas previously held by separatists,” said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International Secretary General from Kyiv.

Your OSCE link is biased and unreliable:

W ar Crimes of the armed forces and security forces of Ukraine:
torture and inhumane treatment (second report)’ was
prepared by a non-state organization ‘The Foundation for The Study of
Democracy’ (headed by M. Grigoriev) and the Russian Public Council
for International Cooperation and Public Diplomacy (presided over by
S. Ordzhonikidze) with the assistance of the Russian Peace Foundation
(L. Slutsky, Y. Sutormina), S. Mamedov, I. Morozov, E. Tarlo, D. Savelyev,
A. Chepa and other members of the Committee for Public Support of
the Residents of Southeastern Ukraine.

So basically you've got nothing, just biased Russian backed propaganda.

Here's an interesting site, Freedom House.

Freedom House rates people’s access to political rights and civil liberties in 210 countries and territories through its annual Freedom in the World report.  If you search Ukraine it shows a score of 61/100.  Most western countries score between 80-95/100.

Russia scores 19/100.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Black Red Devil

[Black Red Devil]

Russian TV covered recent strike in Ukraine very differently than evidence suggests

The porky's they tell their citizens.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Black Red Devil

[ExpandMyMind]

26 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Russian TV covered recent strike in Ukraine very differently than evidence suggests

The porky's they tell their citizens.

Excellent breakdown.

[Black Red Devil]

5 hours ago, and then said:

The little man is all-in and he knows his political future, even his own life is on the line.  It seems that the PTB in Europe and America are still willing to push him, assuming he'll fold his hand.  Can anyone explain to me why NATO would engage in such risks to the world?  If the decision is taken to continue supporting Ukraine from outside then that should be enough to deter Putin in the long term, shouldn't it?  If Ukrainians have an endless supply of increasingly sophisticated weaponry, why is that not sufficient?  If Putin consolidates his grasp on the east and south and creates a continuous land route to Crimea, the Ukrainians can STILL bleed his troops for many years.  So why risk joining in the fight with NATO forces, even if it were "just" a no fly zone?  

In a world of pros and cons there aren't many pros at Putin's disposal.  Even if Russia builds a land bridge they'll be crippled economically. It costs a lot of money to sustain a war these days.   The only country that will supply them the economic needs is China but that will come at a cost and I doubt Putin will want Russia to become China's b..ch.  While Russia is a military superpower, economically it didn't even rate in the top 10 in the world by GDP.

I'm not sure how Putin's going to get himself out of this mess but NATO has to tread carefully because he has nukes, lots of nukes and desperation can make people do crazy things.  I suppose you can claim this as a pro in Putin's favor but only if NATO backs down and lets him do as he pleases which I doubt will happen therefore this turns into a con against Putin and for the rest of the world. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Black Red Devil

[ExpandMyMind]

 

[+joc]

6 hours ago, Occult1 said:

There would be no war if Trump was president. He understood Russia's security concerns. He recognized that NATO is outdated.

There would be no war if Trump were president because Putin knows Trump would take the war straight to Moscow like he said. Putin is a bully.  

[Grey Area]

2 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

 

There lies a tricky conundrum.  If the US allows drones in common usage in the US Armed forces to be used by Ukraine, then every drone sortie could potentially be flow by the US themselves without any way of telling who is behind the controls.

That would supply Putin with a lot of room to finger point at NATO, and an excuse to escalate matters.

[+joc]

6 hours ago, and then said:

Who knows if it's true BUT, it sounds exactly like the kind of comment he WOULD make.  Regardless of its accuracy, the fact remains that the attack did not happen on Trump's watch.  The precise same time that we were being told, 24/7 that Trump was in Putin's pocket.  I've never heard any reasonable defense of those two facts existing in the same place and time.

We do however know what comment Obama DID make:

 

[ExpandMyMind]

7 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

There lies a tricky conundrum.  If the US allows drones in common usage in the US Armed forces to be used by Ukraine, then every drone sortie could potentially be flow by the US themselves without any way of telling who is behind the controls.

That would supply Putin with a lot of room to finger point at NATO, and an excuse to escalate matters.

I read that the manufacturer could or would supply people to operate the drones, rather than the US military.

[+Razman]

7 hours ago, Occult1 said:

There would be no war if Trump was president. He understood Russia's security concerns. He recognized that NATO is outdated.

Generally i just don't see NATO as an offensive type of group , unless provoked. 

[Myles]

7 hours ago, Occult1 said:

There would be no war if Trump was president.

We do not know that.   It's unknown what may have happened.   What we do know is that Russia went to war during Bush's, Obama's and Biden's presidency.    

[+Razman]

10 minutes ago, Myles said:

We do not know that.   It's unknown what may have happened.   What we do know is that Russia went to war during Bush's, Obama's and Biden's presidency.    

Yea it could just be the timing of it.

[ExpandMyMind]

16 minutes ago, Myles said:

We do not know that.   It's unknown what may have happened.   What we do know is that Russia went to war during Bush's, Obama's and Biden's presidency.    

Trump's as well, when you consider Syria.

[Myles]

6 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Trump's as well, when you consider Syria.

The Russian/Syria conflict began in 2015 under Obama.

[L.A.T.1961]

On 4/5/2022 at 8:10 PM, L.A.T.1961 said:

This money cannot officially be touched but I think it is perfectly reasonable to spend it on rebuilding Ukraine, and paying towards their allies help and weapons supply.

And for them to spend money on defensive kit like anti missile systems, plus a navy. 

The West studies how to make Russia foot the war bill.

Snatching Russian hard currency within reach is tempting, but complex. Seven countries participating in sanctions against Russia held nearly half of all Russian foreign reserves of $585 billion as of June 2021, according to the Russian central bank. Since then, foreign reserves have increased to $640 billion.

While this is still almost certainly shy of the required sum, it would cover a significant chunk of it.

Under this scenario, the U.S., U.K., EU countries, Canada and Japan would need to arrange the seizure and confiscation of the nearly $300 billion held in their territories.

“The money is there, it will require national legislation to authorize the central banks to use this money, which is now frozen,” said Robert Litan, nonresident senior fellow in the economic studies program at Brookings Institution.

https://www.politico.eu/article/payback-time-west-make-russia-pay-war-ukraine-bill/

[Buzz_Light_Year]

17 minutes ago, Myles said:

The Russian/Syria conflict began in 2015 under Obama.

Yeah the famous Red Line. LOL

[Grey Area]

1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I read that the manufacturer could or would supply people to operate the drones, rather than the US military.

Yeah but my point is, how could anyone know who is at the controls?  And if a drone strike was carried out, how could a nation that is accused of being in control of the drone 100% refute it?

[ExpandMyMind]

1 hour ago, Myles said:

The Russian/Syria conflict began in 2015 under Obama.

Sure, but the attacks, including chemical attacks, were constant throughout Trump's Presidency.

Point taken though.

[Occult1]

More than 1,000 Ukrainian marines surrender in Mariupol, Russia claims

''Russia’s defence ministry said on Wednesday that 1,026 soldiers of Ukraine’s 36th Marine Brigade, including 162 officers, had surrendered in the besieged Ukrainian port city of Mariupol.

[...]

“In the town of Mariupol, near the Ilyich Iron and Steel Works, as a result of successful offensives by Russian armed forces and Donetsk People’s Republic militia units, 1,026 Ukrainian soldiers of the 36th Marine Brigade voluntarily laid down arms and surrendered,” the ministry said in a statement.

The Russian defence ministry said 151 wounded Ukrainian soldiers were treated on the spot and taken to Mariupol’s city hospital.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8756970/ukrainian-marines-surrender-in-mariupol-russia-claims/

Edited April 13, 2022 by Occult1

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Grey Area said:

Yeah but my point is, how could anyone know who is at the controls?  And if a drone strike was carried out, how could a nation that is accused of being in control of the drone 100% refute it?

Agreed.  It just opens the situation to more uncertainty and the chance of unintended escalation.  It looks like Vlad is going to take this as far as necessary for Russia to prevail in Ukraine.  The only uncertainty there, is what his idea of "success" actually entails.  Russia is being pushed headlong back into the bad old days of Soviet rule and as the politics of this situation begin to matter less from his POV, he can become ever more brutal.  It looks like he's trying to consolidate the grabs in the east and south but even if he brings enough brute force to accomplish that, how long will he be willing to watch his military bleed due to western weapons, training, and intel assistance to Ukraine?  

When Russia changed their doctrine for the role of nukes in conventional combat they made things far more dangerous.  The plan generally seemed to be to take whatever military action they felt was necessary for their "survival", then use a LY nuke to shock the west into backing down.  It might work...ONCE.  The problem is, what if NATO/US are willing to retaliate in kind?  IMO, every day that this thing continues, we slip closer to the edge of something none of us is ready for.

[DarkHunter]

16 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

More than 1,000 Ukrainian marines surrender in Mariupol, Russia claims

''Russia’s defence ministry said on Wednesday that 1,026 soldiers of Ukraine’s 36th Marine Brigade, including 162 officers, had surrendered in the besieged Ukrainian port city of Mariupol.

[...]

“In the town of Mariupol, near the Ilyich Iron and Steel Works, as a result of successful offensives by Russian armed forces and Donetsk People’s Republic militia units, 1,026 Ukrainian soldiers of the 36th Marine Brigade voluntarily laid down arms and surrendered,” the ministry said in a statement.

The Russian defence ministry said 151 wounded Ukrainian soldiers were treated on the spot and taken to Mariupol’s city hospital.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8756970/ukrainian-marines-surrender-in-mariupol-russia-claims/

Leaving out the part where Reuters couldnt independently verify the claim, how the Ukraine denys the claim out right, and how the only source of the claim is the Russian MoD.  Russia has been making claims of mass surrender of Ukranian soldiers in Mariupol for about a week or two now but yet the fighting continues.

[Occult1]

23 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Leaving out the part where Reuters couldnt independently verify the claim, how the Ukraine denys the claim out right, and how the only source of the claim is the Russian MoD.  Russia has been making claims of mass surrender of Ukranian soldiers in Mariupol for about a week or two now but yet the fighting continues.

Seems the 36th Marine Brigade was about to surrender anyway for lack of ammunition. It looks like a credible report. Waiting for more confirmation.

It appears there are still Ukrainian forces at Azovstal steelworks; in tunnels, rail lines, warehouses and factories but that would be Azov Neo-nazis.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Occult1

[spartan max2]

1 minute ago, Occult1 said:

Seems the 36th Marine Brigade was about to surrender anyway for lack of ammunition. It looks like a credible report. Waiting for more confirmation.

It appears there are still Ukrainian forces at Azovstal steelworks, sprawling a complex of tunnels, rail lines, warehouses and factories but that would Azov Neo-nazis.

How does it look credible when it's only Russia claiming? 

[Occult1]

8 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

How does it look credible when it's only Russia claiming? 

According to Sky News:

''You can tell when fronts crack, and I think a crack has occurred," Clarke said.

"I'd be surprised if Mariupol isn't in Russian hands by this time tomorrow."

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-news-live-satellite-images-show-russian-troops-amassing-for-new-attack-as-zelenskyy-makes-prisoner-offer-to-putin-12541713?postid=3718437

 

There is also the fact that the 36th Marine Brigade made a Facebook post 2 days ago telling they would have no choice but to surrender very soon.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10707643/Ukraine-marines-face-death-captivity-surrounded-Russian-forces-Mariupol.html

 

It all corroborates.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Occult1

[DarkHunter]

22 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Seems the 36th Marine Brigade was about to surrender anyway for lack of ammunition. It looks like a credible report. Waiting for more confirmation.

It appears there are still Ukrainian forces at Azovstal steelworks; in tunnels, rail lines, warehouses and factories but that would be Azov Neo-nazis.

None of that is backed up by anything other than reports coming out from Russia.

18 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

According to Sky News:

''You can tell when fronts crack, and I think a crack has occurred," Clarke said.

"I'd be surprised if Mariupol isn't in Russian hands by this time tomorrow."

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-news-live-satellite-images-show-russian-troops-amassing-for-new-attack-as-zelenskyy-makes-prisoner-offer-to-putin-12541713?postid=3718437

 

There is also the fact that the 36th Marine Brigade made a Facebook post 2 days ago telling they would have no choice but to surrender very soon.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10707643/Ukraine-marines-face-death-captivity-surrounded-Russian-forces-Mariupol.html

 

It all corroborates.

So the link from sky news is another statement from the Russian government, not exactly unbiased.

As for the second post the Ukranian government and military, including the 36th marines, have come out saying the Facebook post is not true.  The 36th marines even released a video I believe yesterday saying they are still fighting and defending Mariupol.  There is also the report of how the 36th marines and Azov relinked breaking the pockets Russia was trying to create.  That report hurts the Russian narrative and propaganda so you will probably ignore it.