Russia Masses Military Equipment Near Ukraine Borders: A Prologue to WWIII?

[Duke Wellington]

51 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Ukrainian forces have no way of breaking the siege, because they would have to cross at least 120 km (75 miles) of open terrain. They would be annihilated on the way to get there.

They also can't spare the manpower, they are much too busy defending other positions.

While fighting to the death is admirable its more important to choose the correct battles.

Holding out at the steel works achieves nothing, but costs lives.

[spartan max2]

1 minute ago, Cookie Monster said:

While fighting to the death is admirable its more important to choose the correct battles.

Holding out at the steel works achieves nothing, but costs lives.

The longer they occupy Russian forces the more time there is for weapons to be funnels and distributed across Ukraine 

[Occult1]

25 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

The longer they occupy Russian forces the more time there is for weapons to be funnels and distributed across Ukraine 

Well not really. They only have to seal off the remaining Ukrainian fighters (those who haven't yet surrendered) in the Azovstal steelworks. That doesn't require a lot of Russian troops. A significant part of their forces they can move (from Mariupol) to the north in order to reinforce the troops to fulfill their main objective: Advancing to the administration boundaries of the Donetsk and Luhansk region.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Occult1

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, Occult1 said:

Why would you risk soldiers for no reason when Ukrainian fighters have no possibility to escape? In a week or so their supply will be running so low they will be starving. They will likely come out by themselves.

There have been talks that Russia could flatten the whole complex with bunker buster bombs and such but again why would you do that? Russia already controls Mariupol.

Hi Occult

As long as they are fighting then they don't control it and you have been told why the Ukrainian soldiers are not surrendering. Russians are risking Russian lives in the Ukraine for no reason.

[jmccr8]

8 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Well not really. They only have to seal off the remaining Ukrainian fighters (those who haven't yet surrendered) in the Azovstal steelworks.

Hi Occult

The obvious answer is that the Russians are not able to seal them off and have been weeks trying to do so so it stands that the Ukrainian forces are still being effective even under difficult times.

[Occult1]

15 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

As long as they are fighting then they don't control it and you have been told why the Ukrainian soldiers are not surrendering. Russians are risking Russian lives in the Ukraine for no reason.

There is no more ''fighting''. The remnant of Ukrainian forces are holed up. The only fighting that could still have occurred is if Russian forces tried to storm the plant.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Occult1

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

There is no more ''fighting''. The remnant of Ukrainian forces are holed up. The only fighting that could still have occurred is if Russian forces tried to storm the plant.

Hi Occult

Do you understand that the Ukrainians are still shooting back at Russian soldiers in Donbass, The Russians can't get to the Ukrainian soldiers to capture or kill them still means the Russians have not succeeded. I doubt if you understand much of what you are saying to be honest.

[Occult1]

1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Do you understand that the Ukrainians are still shooting back at Russian soldiers in Donbass,

I was referring to Mariupol, specifically.  There is no more fighting.

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, Occult1 said:

I was referring to Mariupol, specifically.  There is no more fighting.

Hi Occult

Are you sure? this id from yesterday.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/04/20/ukraine-russia-invasion-live-updates/7375163001/

Editor's note: On Thursday, Russian President Vladimir Putin said his troops would not storm the steel mill in Mariupol and instead will block exits. This page recaps the news from Ukraine on Wednesday, April 20. Follow here for the latest updates and news from Thursday, April 21.

Ukrainian forces continued to fight in the besieged city of Mariupol on Wednesday after a Russian ultimatum to troops holed up in the Azovstal steel mill to lay down their arms passed without a mass surrender.

 

Seems like the Russians keep giving deadlines for surrender and the Ukrainians don't give a s**t what Russia wants.

[Occult1]

7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Occult

Are you sure? this id from yesterday.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/04/20/ukraine-russia-invasion-live-updates/7375163001/

Editor's note: On Thursday, Russian President Vladimir Putin said his troops would not storm the steel mill in Mariupol and instead will block exits. This page recaps the news from Ukraine on Wednesday, April 20. Follow here for the latest updates and news from Thursday, April 21.

Ukrainian forces continued to fight in the besieged city of Mariupol on Wednesday after a Russian ultimatum to troops holed up in the Azovstal steel mill to lay down their arms passed without a mass surrender.

 

Seems like the Russians keep giving deadlines for surrender and the Ukrainians don't give a s**t what Russia wants.

''Continued to fight'' is an euphemism. They are still ''resisting'' might be a better term, holed up in underground tunnels. But the combat work in Mariupol is over for Russia.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Occult1

[DarkHunter]

20 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

''Continued to fight'' is an euphemism. They are still ''resisting'' might be a better term, holed up in underground tunnels. But the combat work in Mariupol is over for Russia.

There are almost daily videos of the Ukranian soldiers in Mariupol actively attacking the Russians.  A day or two ago there was a video of a burning Russian T-80 tank that was recently destroyed in Mariupol, today there was a video of either a Russian BMP or BTR getting hit by an antitank missile.

[Grey Area]

1 hour ago, Cookie Monster said:

While fighting to the death is admirable its more important to choose the correct battles.

Holding out at the steel works achieves nothing, but costs lives.

This is a point I made in an earlier post, but Russia has designed this situation.

The moment any of the various conventions and rules of war are not adhered to you get situations like this.

The point of wars is not to kill every last enemy, it is simply to convince your enemy to not fight any more.  Not killing and torturing your enemy indiscriminately, including civilians goes a long way to leading to enemy surrender.  Right now any guarantee Russia can provide to Ukrainian troops is worthless given their previous form, of course Ukrainian troops are going to continue fighting to the death.  It’s got nothing to do with optics it’s about the alternatives and which seem more palatable.

 

[+and-then]

12 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Kinda says it all doesn't it?

They better be ready to take off their coat and stay awhile.  The rest of Ukraine isn't apt to stop shooting at them just because the Russians decided to stop and rest awhile.

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

Holding out at the steel works achieves nothing, but costs lives.

Ever hear of a little place called the Alamo?  They died to a man but their sacrifice energized a resistance that eventually escorted Santa Anna out of Texas. 

[+and-then]

21 hours ago, Occult1 said:

learn about what they've gone through over the last 8 years and the hell unleashed unto them by the Ukrainian regime.

Do you remember what happened just PRIOR to the chaos that began 8 years ago?  Russia freakin' INVADED and stole Crimea and set up shop helping those poor eastern Ukrainians you keep whining about with the weapons and other resources they've needed to carry on a civil war against their own Nation. IOW, if they suffered, it was THEY who began it all so there isn't a lot of compassion for people who are so stuck on stupid that they're willing to help another nation invade and steal from their own country.  I've always heard that called "TREASON".

Edited April 21, 2022 by and then

[Tatetopa]

5 hours ago, Occult1 said:

Why would you risk soldiers for no reason when Ukrainian fighters have no possibility to escape? In a week or so their supply will be running so low they will be starving. They will likely come out by themselves.

There have been talks that Russia could flatten the whole complex with bunker buster bombs and such but again why would you do that? Russia already controls Mariupol.

A siege ties up a good chunk of Russian soldiers that can't be used in a battle somewhere else.  In a hostile city that they "control"  patrols still have a way of disappearing.

[ExpandMyMind]

3 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

While fighting to the death is admirable its more important to choose the correct battles.

Holding out at the steel works achieves nothing, but costs lives.

It keeps a large portion of Russian forces at bay, hundreds of miles away from Donbas. If they’re tied up there, they can’t be elsewhere killing civilians or bolstering other Russian forces.

Those holding out are providing an incredible service to the whole country.

[Occult1]

47 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

A siege ties up a good chunk of Russian soldiers that can't be used in a battle somewhere else.  In a hostile city that they "control"  patrols still have a way of disappearing.

There are reports that part of their forces from Mariupol have been redeployed to the north in order to reinforce the troops. Would Russia prefer to have taken the whole city, Azovstal plant included? Absolutely. They no doubt will eventually. But their main objective now is not to capture these really difficult places where the Ukrainians can hold out in the urban centres, but to try and capture territory and also to encircle the Ukrainian forces in the east.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Occult1

[AlonaLameDeer]

6 hours ago, Occult1 said:

Why would you risk soldiers for no reason when Ukrainian fighters have no possibility to escape? In a week or so their supply will be running so low they will be starving. They will likely come out by themselves.

There have been talks that Russia could flatten the whole complex with bunker buster bombs and such but again why would you do that? Russia already controls Mariupol.

I thought you said they needed to free up those 12k guys to go fight elsewere?
Takes a lot of troops to siege a place out.

[AlonaLameDeer]

3 hours ago, Occult1 said:

''Continued to fight'' is an euphemism. They are still ''resisting'' might be a better term, holed up in underground tunnels. But the combat work in Mariupol is over for Russia.

Anyone get the Ukrainians okay on that?
Seams like this is again a two way agreement that one side is assuming the other side with be okay with.

[Buzz_Light_Year]

Two large fires in Russia today. I didn't see it posted but this is kinda of interesting. Makes one wonder if factions are trying to undermine Vlad the Inhaler.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/large-deadly-fire-breaks-out-russian-defense-research-facility
 

Quote

 

The death toll in the massive fire that broke out earlier in the day at a sensitive Russian Defense Ministry research facility in the city of Tver has risen to seven after emergency crews battled the Thursday blaze throughout the afternoon, state-run TASS reports. 

The cause of the fire is still either unknown or not being disclosed by Russian state agencies at this point, but now more questions are being raised as another mysterious large blaze has erupted, this time at Russia's largest chemical plant, a mere hours after the fire in Tver - the latter which had engulfed a facility belonging to the secretive Central Research and Development Institute of Aerospace Defense Troops. UK media is reporting on the latest mystery fire, which marks the 2nd in the day, as follows: 

 

 

[AlonaLameDeer]

Russia having to withdraw in areas.
Losing 2 jets, 2 helicopters.
Losing tanks and getting in a fire fight with a "Surrounded enemy" that "Wont last more then a few days" (A week ago)

This is some real 32D chess the Russians are playing.

Ya they are going to make some progress, but there not doing it quickly, smartly or well. And they are going to start (They are) Running out of steam soon in the area.
Trading progress for massive stupid losses, has the side effect that eventually, you don't have the manpower to hold what you have or stop a counter offensive.

[DarkHunter]

35 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

Two large fires in Russia today. I didn't see it posted but this is kinda of interesting. Makes one wonder if factions are trying to undermine Vlad the Inhaler.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/large-deadly-fire-breaks-out-russian-defense-research-facility
 

 

There has also been a few suspicious deaths as well.  The former vice president of Gazprombank has been found dead in his house in Moscow along with his killed wife and daughter.  Officially it's been ruled a murder suicide but there is some suspicion online this is further sign of the Russian oligarchs starting to fray and Putin losing control.  Gazprombank is the main bank tied into Putin's gas for rubles scheme.

[Occult1]

Ukraine war: Revitalised Russia can still win, western intelligence warns

''President Putin could still “win” the war in Ukraine, which is now expected to last until the end of the year, western officials said.

The Russian army outnumbers Ukrainian forces in the east three to one and could encircle and “destroy” a significant proportion, the officials warned. They said Russia could even launch a new assault on Kyiv or deprive the Ukrainian capital of access to the Black Sea in a worst-case scenario.''

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-war-revitalised-russia-can-still-win-western-intelligence-warns-fvwc9cz0n

 

Seems Western officials are scrambling to save face in Ukraine, as their policies of sanctions and arming the Ukrainian resistance is failing.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Occult1

[Silver]

4 hours ago, Grey Area said:

This is a point I made in an earlier post, but Russia has designed this situation.

The moment any of the various conventions and rules of war are not adhered to you get situations like this.

The point of wars is not to kill every last enemy, it is simply to convince your enemy to not fight any more.  Not killing and torturing your enemy indiscriminately, including civilians goes a long way to leading to enemy surrender.  Right now any guarantee Russia can provide to Ukrainian troops is worthless given their previous form, of course Ukrainian troops are going to continue fighting to the death.  It’s got nothing to do with optics it’s about the alternatives and which seem more palatable.

 

Putin has clearly laid out that genocide and the destruction of Ukraine as a sovereign state is his aim. And he has demonstrated that, as it has been seen by the world through video evidence. I'm not sure that the West will allow Putin to carry on commiting war crimes, it may be allowing the people in the steel works to starve to death in their hundreds or thousands may be enough to force their hand. The light-hearted and heartless way the Ukraine situation is sometimes discussed on UM has made me back off from this site. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by The Silver Shroud