Russia Masses Military Equipment Near Ukraine Borders: A Prologue to WWIII?

[+Nuclear Wessel]

15 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Russia 'Weakened but Still Dangerous,' NATO Warns

NATO Deputy Secretary-General Mircea Geoana appeared by video link at the Helsinki Security Forum on Friday, telling attendees that NATO and European Union allies face a tough winter as inflation, cost of living crises, and the energy squeeze combine.

[...]

"Russia's war underlines just how vital a strong deterrence and defense is," he said. "Russia is weakened, but still dangerous. And we cannot let down our guard. We cannot assume it will not attack another country."

"Many assumed that it would not launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine from the beginning. They were wrong."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-weakened-but-still-dangerous-nato-warns/ar-AA12v3yB

 

NATO seems to believe that Russia is still dangerous, could invade another country etc.. But they can't win the war in Ukraine?

Attacking and successfully invading are two different  things.

[Katniss]

13 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Without people like Occult, this thread wouldn't be a discussion thread. Reality sits somewhere between Helen and Occult.

Shame on you Mr. Sir Wearer of Hats. I can't believe you forgot Cookie Monster. But you do have an interesting point.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

5 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

US promises ‘severe costs’ for anyone who supports Russia’s annexations in Ukraine

''National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan told a top Ukrainian official on Sunday that any individual or entity who supports Russia’s annexation of eastern regions of Ukraine will face “severe” consequences.

Sullivan met Andriy Yermak, head of the office of Ukraine’s president, in Istanbul on Sunday, according to a statement from the White House, two days after Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the annexation of four regions of eastern and southern Ukraine.

“Mr. Sullivan underscored the United States’ steadfast support for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. He conveyed that the United States and its allies and partners will not be deterred by Russia’s flagrant violations of international law, including the United Nations Charter, and will impose severe costs on any individual, entity, or country that provides support to Russia’s purported annexation,” the statement said.''

https://news.yahoo.com/us-promises-severe-costs-anyone-214734110.html

 

@Nuclear Wessel U.S. imperalism in action.

US imperialism to counter Russia’s colonialist expansionism seems a better alternative. 

[Occult1]

7 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Attacking and successfully invading are two different  things.

"Many assumed that it would not launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine from the beginning. They were wrong."

 

I interpret this as an admission that NATO doesn't really know what Russia is capable of doing next, or are not willing to tell us.

If Russia is 'dangerous' enough, they could significantly escalate the war and destroy Ukraine on the battlefield.

[spartan max2]

15 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

"Many assumed that it would not launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine from the beginning. They were wrong."

 

I interpret this as an admission that NATO doesn't really know what Russia is capable of doing next, or are not willing to tell us.

If Russia is 'dangerous' enough, they could significantly escalate the war and destroy Ukraine on the battlefield.

US intelligence kept telling people Russia would invade but Europe felt the US was being paranoid and a war monger.

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, Occult1 said:

Also, annexation doesn't change the fact that the Donbass is still a war zone. Russia is mobilizing troops for war and will no doubt defend the territories

Hi Occult

It is a war zone because Putin wants their land for resources and not the civilians that he is liberating which is why he indiscriminately murders the people he claims he is fighting for. He doesn’t care if you are Russian or Ukrainian as he will sacrifice all of them to get what he dreams of.

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

There are steps to be taken. Currently the draft law for annexation of the 4 regions has been submitted to the Russian parliament.

There are also steps taken for mobilization of thousands of additional troops. Make no mistake, Russia is going to war for Donbass.

The fighting in Donetsk Oblast has been ongoing since 2014. That reality isn't going to change in a few days.

Also, just because Putin has proclaimed annexation doesn't mean the Nukes will start flying all of the sudden.

Hi Occult

Yes his men are making steps to get the hell out of Dodge as quickly as possible.

[DarkHunter]

16 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

"Many assumed that it would not launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine from the beginning. They were wrong."

 

I interpret this as an admission that NATO doesn't really know what Russia is capable of doing next, or are not willing to tell us.

If Russia is 'dangerous' enough, they could significantly escalate the war and destroy Ukraine on the battlefield.

To be fair to NATO the whole Russian invasion plan was insane and essentially doomed to fail.  Most rational leaders would never of attempted what Russia did.

Using between 200,000 and 300,000 soldiers in total to invade along 5 seperate fronts against an opponent that had a standing army of around 300,000 with approximately 1,000,000 men in reserve right before the start of the mud season is rather crazy.

Most military doctrine suggests a 3 to 1 numerical advantage to even consider offensive action.

The whole invasion has been irrational and suggest Putin has bought into his own Russian superiority propaganda.

[jmccr8]

28 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

"Many assumed that it would not launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine from the beginning. They were wrong."

 

I interpret this as an admission that NATO doesn't really know what Russia is capable of doing next, or are not willing to tell us.

If Russia is 'dangerous' enough, they could significantly escalate the war and destroy Ukraine on the battlefield.

Hi Occult

At this point he has 3 options

Kill as many Russians as he can as an inferior force

Stop and go home

nuke and get nuked

I don’t have a problem with any of the options, I have lived a hard life so pushing on is what I will do if we all survive the nukes

[Occult1]

31 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

To be fair to NATO the whole Russian invasion plan was insane and essentially doomed to fail.  Most rational leaders would never of attempted what Russia did.

Using between 200,000 and 300,000 soldiers in total to invade along 5 seperate fronts against an opponent that had a standing army of around 300,000 with approximately 1,000,000 men in reserve right before the start of the mud season is rather crazy.

Most military doctrine suggests a 3 to 1 numerical advantage to even consider offensive action.

The whole invasion has been irrational and suggest Putin has bought into his own Russian superiority propaganda.

The Russian invasion plan was to force Ukraine to capitulate. The major city centres were encircled, but the goal was not to take them. You are right that the number of troops (estimated at 200.000 soldiers) doesn't support a total invasion and subsequent regime change. But the U.S./NATO made sure Ukraine wouldn't accept terms in a defeated position. Russia had to move to the 2nd phase: The complete 'liberation' of Donbass and southern Ukraine.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Occult1

[DarkHunter]

2 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

The Russian invasion plan was to force Ukraine to capitulate. The major city centers were encircled, but the goal was not to take them. You are right that the number of troops (estimated at 200.000 soldiers) doesn't support a total invasion and subsequent regime change. But the U.S./NATO made sure Ukraine wouldn't accept terms in a defeated position. Russia had to fall back to 'liberation' of the Donbass and southern Ukraine.

Too bad the Russians failed at encircling any of the major cities.  Now Russia is going to lose the Donbas and probably Crimea too.

[Occult1]

17 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Too bad the Russians failed at encircling any of the major cities. 

From March 2022:

Besieging the main cities. Russia began a strategy to wear out local authorities. The cities of Chernihiv, Sumy and Kharkiv were encircled but they continue to resist to this day. Russian soldiers also reached Kherson in southern Ukraine. Mariupol, a key city in the southeast, was surrounded in early March and has since been subjected to incessant shelling. Agreements on humanitarian corridors are allowing some residents to flee the besieged city following several failed attempts and broken promises. The strategy of surrounding Kyiv from the northwest and northeast has so far failed due to strong Ukrainian resistance.

https://english.elpais.com/international/2022-03-25/the-war-in-ukraine-in-maps-kyivs-defenders-launch-counterattacks.html

 

From February 2022:

Kyiv 'at the border of a humanitarian catastrophe' as Russian troops advance, mayor says

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-russia-attack-feb27-2022-1.6366236

 

Russia's invasion plan was to apply maximum pressure around Ukraine's major cities and force a capitulation, not to gain control of them. It didn't work.

At the same time the U.S/NATO started pouring in billions in weapons, equipment, intelligence sharing etc. They made sure the war wouldn't end.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Occult1

[DarkHunter]

8 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

From March 2022:

Besieging the main cities. Russia began a strategy to wear out local authorities. The cities of Chernihiv, Sumy and Kharkiv were encircled but they continue to resist to this day. Russian soldiers also reached Kherson in southern Ukraine. Mariupol, a key city in the southeast, was surrounded in early March and has since been subjected to incessant shelling. Agreements on humanitarian corridors are allowing some residents to flee the besieged city following several failed attempts and broken promises. The strategy of surrounding Kyiv from the northwest and northeast has so far failed due to strong Ukrainian resistance.

https://english.elpais.com/international/2022-03-25/the-war-in-ukraine-in-maps-kyivs-defenders-launch-counterattacks.html

 

From February 2022:

Kyiv 'at the border of a humanitarian catastrophe' as Russian troops advance, mayor says

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-russia-attack-feb27-2022-1.6366236

 

Russia's invasion plan was to apply maximum pressure around Ukraine's major cities and force a capitulation, not to gain control of them. It didn't work.

At the same time the U.S/NATO started pouring in billions in weapons, equipment, intelligence sharing etc. They made sure the war wouldn't end.

Kyiv was never circled, the furthest the Russian military got was a few outplaying suburbs.

Kharkiv was never surrounded and I proved you completely wrong on that once already and can do it again.  

As for Sumy and Cherniv neither were surrounded either, the Russian forces captured half of the city of Sumy before being pushed out the next day.

[spartan max2]

We all saw what happened. Revisionist history won't change anything. Putin tried to blitz into Kyiv and failed. 

[DarkHunter]

@Occult1

Good to see you using cookie monsters strategy.  Best part is even your own source shows that none of the cities you mentioned were circled by Russian forces but I guess since you like to push pro Russian propaganda and misinformation pushing Russian revisionist history would be expected.

[Trelane]

2 hours ago, Occult1 said:

Russia 'Weakened but Still Dangerous,' NATO Warns

NATO Deputy Secretary-General Mircea Geoana appeared by video link at the Helsinki Security Forum on Friday, telling attendees that NATO and European Union allies face a tough winter as inflation, cost of living crises, and the energy squeeze combine.

[...]

"Russia's war underlines just how vital a strong deterrence and defense is," he said. "Russia is weakened, but still dangerous. And we cannot let down our guard. We cannot assume it will not attack another country."

"Many assumed that it would not launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine from the beginning. They were wrong."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-weakened-but-still-dangerous-nato-warns/ar-AA12v3yB

 

NATO seems to believe that Russia is still dangerous, could invade another country etc.. But they can't win the war in Ukraine?

Invasion does not = winning in Ukraine.

Swing and a miss.

[Trelane]

1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

The Russian invasion plan was to force Ukraine to capitulate. The major city centres were encircled, but the goal was not to take them. You are right that the number of troops (estimated at 200.000 soldiers) doesn't support a total invasion and subsequent regime change. But the U.S./NATO made sure Ukraine wouldn't accept terms in a defeated position. Russia had to move to the 2nd phase: The complete 'liberation' of Donbass and southern Ukraine.

That is not true at all. Fail lol.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

From March 2022:

Besieging the main cities. Russia began a strategy to wear out local authorities. The cities of Chernihiv, Sumy and Kharkiv were encircled but they continue to resist to this day. Russian soldiers also reached Kherson in southern Ukraine. Mariupol, a key city in the southeast, was surrounded in early March and has since been subjected to incessant shelling. Agreements on humanitarian corridors are allowing some residents to flee the besieged city following several failed attempts and broken promises. The strategy of surrounding Kyiv from the northwest and northeast has so far failed due to strong Ukrainian resistance.

https://english.elpais.com/international/2022-03-25/the-war-in-ukraine-in-maps-kyivs-defenders-launch-counterattacks.html

 

From February 2022:

Kyiv 'at the border of a humanitarian catastrophe' as Russian troops advance, mayor says

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-russia-attack-feb27-2022-1.6366236

 

Russia's invasion plan was to apply maximum pressure around Ukraine's major cities and force a capitulation, not to gain control of them. It didn't work.

At the same time the U.S/NATO started pouring in billions in weapons, equipment, intelligence sharing etc. They made sure the war wouldn't end.

Yawn. Anything of value to provide?

[Trelane]

Uh oh, looks like the lap dogs aren't happy with ol' Vladdy Daddy.

"Russia turning on Putin as number of critics grow: 'Should be charged for treason!' "

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-turning-on-putin-as-number-of-critics-grow-should-be-charged-for-treason/ar-AA12vqvj?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f6b57f20557d4b37bfd6647c82d6cee6

"The Kremlin has total control over the media and the population in Russia. But as Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine continues to not go to plan, more and more people are defying the Kremlin to criticise the "special military operation". Just this week, a Russian state TV presenter, Vladimir Solovyov, has lamented Russia's failings in Ukraine. He said the West is now "mocking" Moscow"

"Solovyov added that Russia's military display in Ukraine has been "truly worrisome" and "there hasn't been a single operation after Kharkiv that would alleviate this bitterness, nor have there been any returned or added territories"

"Ukraine. In September, Local Russian lawmakers in both St. Petersburg and Moscow called for the Russian president to resign. Lawmakers in St Petersburg also issued a statement saying Putin should be charged with high treason for launching the war in Ukraine."

"Councillor from the city, Dmitry Palyuga, tweeted the statement which said: "We believe that the decision made by President Putin to start the special military operation is detrimental to the security of Russia and its citizens."

"The Council of the Smolninskoye Municipal District decided to appeal to the State Duma deputies with a proposal to bring charges of treason against President Putin in order to remove him from office. The decision was supported by the majority of the deputies present."

[Trelane]

OOOF!!!!! More Russian lies exposed, of course most of us knew they were lying about not torturing civilians.

As president John Adams once said, 

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”

"Russian neo-Nazi militia fighting in Ukraine advocates the murder and torture of POWs: report"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-neo-nazi-militia-fighting-in-ukraine-advocates-the-murder-and-torture-of-pows-report/ar-AA12vuID?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f6b57f20557d4b37bfd6647c82d6cee6

"A pro-Kremlin, neo-Nazi militia group is advocating for the murder and torture of Ukrainian prisoners of war, according to The Guardian. The "Task Force Rusich," which has been linked to the infamous Russian private military contractor, Wagner Group,  is fighting in Ukraine on behalf of the Russian government, The Guardian reports."

"A message published on Rusich's Telegram channel on September 22 offers instructions on how to treat Ukrainian prisoners of war, including grisly instructions on how to torture them and dispose of their bodies, the newspaper said."

"The message advocates for "removing body parts" and the "destruction of prisoners on the spot," per The Guardian. "

"It includes specific instructions on murdering Ukrainian prisoners of war after they have been interrogated and advises against reporting Ukrainian captures to the pro-Kremlin command, The Guardian reported. If a report is necessary, the message said, it should falsely claim that the prisoner was already injured or dying, per the newspaper."

Edited October 3, 2022 by Trelane

[pellinore]

6 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

So we have Russian troops retreating from what Putin declared Russia annexed a day or so ago lol.

What a joke. 

It's the first time a nation has attempted to annex territory it is retreating from. It doesn't make sense.

Edited October 3, 2022 by pellinore

[jmccr8]

3 hours ago, Occult1 said:

From March 2022:

Hi Occult

Not sure if you know this but it is October 2 so any fiction intended but never realized is pointless, why did you even try?

[jmccr8]

3 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

Kyiv was never circled, the furthest the Russian military got was a few outplaying

Hi Dark

Maybe if they didn’t park them all on the highway out of gas they may have made sparse circles around toilet factories

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, Trelane said:

OOOF!!!!! More Russian lies exposed, of course most of us knew they were lying about not torturing civilians.

As president John Adams once said, 

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”

"Russian neo-Nazi militia fighting in Ukraine advocates the murder and torture of POWs: report"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-neo-nazi-militia-fighting-in-ukraine-advocates-the-murder-and-torture-of-pows-report/ar-AA12vuID?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f6b57f20557d4b37bfd6647c82d6cee6

"A pro-Kremlin, neo-Nazi militia group is advocating for the murder and torture of Ukrainian prisoners of war, according to The Guardian. The "Task Force Rusich," which has been linked to the infamous Russian private military contractor, Wagner Group,  is fighting in Ukraine on behalf of the Russian government, The Guardian reports."

"A message published on Rusich's Telegram channel on September 22 offers instructions on how to treat Ukrainian prisoners of war, including grisly instructions on how to torture them and dispose of their bodies, the newspaper said."

"The message advocates for "removing body parts" and the "destruction of prisoners on the spot," per The Guardian. "

"It includes specific instructions on murdering Ukrainian prisoners of war after they have been interrogated and advises against reporting Ukrainian captures to the pro-Kremlin command, The Guardian reported. If a report is necessary, the message said, it should falsely claim that the prisoner was already injured or dying, per the newspaper."

Hi Trelane

I guess it’s easier to teach a drunk how to be abusive rather that actually training them for combat with a better trained and equipped force. Yes nothing says liberation like torturing civilians rather than fighting an military opponent. Torturing more Ukrainian civilians will only harden the resolve of the free Ukraine fighting for its land and people 

[+razman]

42 minutes ago, pellinore said:

It's the first time a nation has attempted to annex territory it is retreating from. It doesn't make sense.

Well it was rushed in there pretty quick , perhaps prematurely.