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Russia Masses Military Equipment Near Ukraine Borders: A Prologue to WWIII?


Grim Reaper 6

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I think this whole Ukraine vs Russia war is a starter war designed to eventually take over all of Europe.  Do not forget Russia's modus...the five year plan!!

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2 hours ago, razman said:

One would think it should be ok with Russia  , i mean , a demilitarized zone might not be the whole solution , but it could be part of it. Why should anyone really care who the people join or where they go ? Be better than death and suffering and war crimes. 

Agree. People should be free to join and to go. But. Not the land. That is the whole issue. Redesigning borders is the main issue. I am free to call myself german and I want to be a part of it. Noone is holding me back. But, I cannot take one inch of what rightfully belongs to Canada. I can go, the property stays here. Easy as that.

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Kremlin: Ukraine leadership can 'end suffering' by meeting Russian demands

''MOSCOW, Nov 24 (Reuters) - The Kremlin on Thursday denied that its attacks on Ukraine's electricity network were aimed at civilians, but said Kyiv could "end the suffering" of its population by meeting Russia's demands to resolve the conflict.

Repeated missile barrages against power infrastructure across Ukraine over the last few weeks have forced millions of people to go without light, water or heating for hours or days at a time, just as outdoor temperatures fall below freezing.

But Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters that "there have been no strikes on 'social' targets and there are none - special attention is paid to this".
 
"As for targets that are directly or indirectly related to military potential, they are accordingly subject to strikes," he said.''
 
 
 
Should Ukraine concede to some of Russia's demands?
 
Edited by Occult1
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2 hours ago, razman said:

One would think it should be ok with Russia  , i mean , a demilitarized zone might not be the whole solution , but it could be part of it. Why should anyone really care who the people join or where they go ? Be better than death and suffering and war crimes. 

So you support negotiation between Russia and Ukraine ?

Some people here have taken the extreme position that Ukraine shouldn't negotiate with a 'terrorist state'.

Edited by Occult1
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17 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Some people here have taken the extreme position that Ukraine shouldn't negotiate with a 'terrorist state'.

The fact that you put them in quotes suggests, to me, that you don't agree.

Do you agree that Russia is a terrorist state, or not?

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30 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

So you support negotiation between Russia and Ukraine ?

Some people here have taken the extreme position that Ukraine shouldn't negotiate with a 'terrorist state'.

Negotiations would be very sensible, if Russia’s position was reasonable, or even realistic, however this…

 

33 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Kremlin: Ukraine leadership can 'end suffering' by meeting Russian demands

… Is why negotiations aren’t really negotiations are they?

Should the allies have negotiated with Hitler a week after the Normandy Landings?  Should the U.K. have surrendered a week after Dunkirk?

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37 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

The fact that you put them in quotes suggests, to me, that you don't agree.

Do you agree that Russia is a terrorist state, or not?

You could argue that the U.S' recent wars have resulted in far more civilian deaths than Russia's war in Ukraine.

While there is no doubt that Russia has committed war crimes in Ukraine, that certainly doesn't mean it is a 'terrorist state'.

Edited by Occult1
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26 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

You could argue that the U.S' recent wars have resulted in far more civilian deaths than Russia's war in Ukraine.

Whataboutism. We're not talking about the US - we're talking about Russia.

26 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

While there is no doubt that Russia has committed war crimes in Ukraine, that certainly doesn't mean it is a 'terrorist state'.

Seems at least the European parliament believes so, and most of Russia's actions do meet the criteria for terrorism (i.e. bombing their critical infrastructure to invoke fear so as to push Ukraine to the negotiations table, using rape as a war/scare tactic, etc). I'd say it's pretty reasonable to conclude that Russia is a terrorist state.

Without appealing to more whataboutisms, I'd be interested in wondering why you think that Russia isn't a terrorist state.

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

Kremlin: Ukraine leadership can 'end suffering' by meeting Russian demands

Hi Occult

It’s more like Ukraine leadership can end suffering of Russia’s embarrassment by being nice guys and giving up. Fat chance in hell of that happening. I would have no problem with blowing the crap out of Russia’s infrastructure and bombing them back into fiefdom

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1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

So you support negotiation between Russia and Ukraine ?

Some people here have taken the extreme position that Ukraine shouldn't negotiate with a 'terrorist state'.

Hi Occult

I am all in favour of negotiating Russia’s surrender and rehabilitation of government 

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43 minutes ago, Occult1 said:
1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

 

You could argue that the U.S' recent wars have resulted in far more civilian deaths than Russia's war in Ukraine.

Hi Occult

Before one could argue it you should give credible sources that demonstrate your claim which is just as bogus as de-nazifying the Ukraine.

45 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

While there is no doubt that Russia has committed war crimes in Ukraine, that certainly doesn't mean it is a 'terrorist state'.

Oh yes there actions do show they are a terrorist state and should be dealt with accordingly just as the majority of the world sees them as.

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30 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Whataboutism. We're not talking about the US - we're talking about Russia.

Seems at least the European parliament believes so, and most of Russia's actions do meet the criteria for terrorism (i.e. bombing their critical infrastructure to invoke fear so as to push Ukraine to the negotiations table, using rape as a war/scare tactic, etc). I'd say it's pretty reasonable to conclude that Russia is a terrorist state.

Without appealing to more whataboutisms, I'd be interested in wondering why you think that Russia isn't a terrorist state.

The designation of 'state sponsor of terrorism' is so loosely applied these days as to become meaningless.

It seems to me that the EU lawmakers are engaged in nothing more than anti-Russian propaganda.

Bombing critical infrastructure, while a tragic escalation of a war that could have been avoided, is nothing new in warfare.

The air campaign of the Gulf War, also known as the 1991 bombing of Iraq, pretty completely wiped out Iraq's critical infrastructure.

Edited by Occult1
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23 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

The designation of 'state sponsor of terorrism' is so loosely applied to these days as to become meaningless.

So a unanimous parliamentary decision to designate Russia as such is considered a loose application so as to essentially just be meaningless?

23 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Bombing critical infrastructure, while a tragic escalation of a war that could have been avoided, is nothing new in warfare.

You left out the rapes. And torturing civilians. And targeting schools, hospitals, etc.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tortured-children-ukraine-un-panel-says-rcna49168

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rape-torture-ukrainian-children-independent-international-commission-united-nations_n_632e83efe4b0695c1d825ab1

The age of “victims of sexual and gendered-based violence" in Ukraine by Russian forces "ranged from 4 to 82 years," an independent commission has found.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61071243

'Russian soldiers raped me and killed my husband'

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2022/09/23/Ukraine-Russia-United-Nations-war-crimes/5981663954975/

Sept. 23 (UPI) -- A new repot by United Nations' investigators has concluded that Russian troops have raped and tortured children in Ukraine, carried out a large number of executions and committed other war crimes.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ukraine-rape-1.6661735

Some of the sexual violence involved level of organization that speaks to systematic planning, lawyer says

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-russia-accused-of-targeting-hospitals-in-terror-bombing-campaign-12605318#:~:text=Russia has been accused of,carried out by Russian forces.

Russia has been accused of waging psychological warfare against the Ukrainian people by targeting hospitals, as Sky News analysis shows that almost 60% of attacks on healthcare facilities worldwide this year have been carried out by Russian forces.

23 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

The air campaign of the Gulf War, also known as the 1991 bombing of Iraq, pretty completely wiped out Iraq's critical infrastructure.

We're talking about Russia. No whataboutisms.

Without invoking more whataboutisms I ask that you demonstrate why you don't believe Russia to be a terrorist state.

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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With the declared genocide of freezing millions of people to death this winter, I personally think we have let the Russians cross the line for the last time. 4 million starved to death in the Holodomor, 50 million killed in the great patriotic war, I think NATO should just wipe out the Russian oligarchic military oppressive state. It is an evil cancer that needs to be cut out. We have gross inequality in the West with our democratic inequality, but it is nothing like Russia and North Korea. We all only live for a short period of time, let's just crush Putin and his autocracy. We should just wipe his army out, it will be very sad for the troops in the trenches, but it has to be done. And then we need to hunt down every murderer and rapist who took advantage of this war, and sentence them not to death, but to life- life when they have the chance to reflect.

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Terrorist russia is terrorist because it keeps committing terrorist acts.

russian supporters are terrorist supporters.

 

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1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

So a unanimous parliamentary decision to designate Russia as such is considered a loose application so as to essentially just be meaningless?

You left out the rapes. And torturing civilians. And targeting schools, hospitals, etc.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tortured-children-ukraine-un-panel-says-rcna49168

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rape-torture-ukrainian-children-independent-international-commission-united-nations_n_632e83efe4b0695c1d825ab1

The age of “victims of sexual and gendered-based violence" in Ukraine by Russian forces "ranged from 4 to 82 years," an independent commission has found.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61071243

'Russian soldiers raped me and killed my husband'

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2022/09/23/Ukraine-Russia-United-Nations-war-crimes/5981663954975/

Sept. 23 (UPI) -- A new repot by United Nations' investigators has concluded that Russian troops have raped and tortured children in Ukraine, carried out a large number of executions and committed other war crimes.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ukraine-rape-1.6661735

Some of the sexual violence involved level of organization that speaks to systematic planning, lawyer says

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-russia-accused-of-targeting-hospitals-in-terror-bombing-campaign-12605318#:~:text=Russia has been accused of,carried out by Russian forces.

Russia has been accused of waging psychological warfare against the Ukrainian people by targeting hospitals, as Sky News analysis shows that almost 60% of attacks on healthcare facilities worldwide this year have been carried out by Russian forces.

While some of these reports are no doubt true, others may be propaganda. We should be aware of that as well.

The problem is that you are focusing only on one side. Ukraine has also committed war crimes since 2014. It has been well documented.

Ukraine: Ukrainian fighting tactics endanger civilians

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

 

Alleged war crimes by Ukrainian authorities & militias under scanner

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/alleged-war-crimes-by-ukrainian-authorities-militias-under-scanner/articleshow/91373384.cms?from=mdr

 

UN Commission has found an array of war crimes, violations of human rights and international humanitarian law have been committed in Ukraine

''Ukrainian forces have also committed international humanitarian law violations in some cases, including two incidents that qualify as war crimes.''

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/un-commission-has-found-array-war-crimes-violations-human-rights-and

 

Ukraine: Mounting evidence of war crimes and Russian involvement

“All sides in this conflict have shown disregard for civilian lives and are blatantly violating their international obligations,” said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International’s Secretary General, who travels to Kyiv and Moscow in the coming days. “

[...]

''Civilians from these areas told Amnesty International that the Ukrainian government forces subjected their neighbourhoods to heavy shelling. Their testimonies suggest that the attacks were indiscriminate and may amount to war crimes.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-russian-involvement/

 

UN report on 2014-16 killings in Ukraine highlights “rampant impunity”

''The report also documents killings within the armed groups and Government forces. This includes at least 121 cases of “intentional homicide” of Ukrainian servicemen, some of whom were whistle-blowers who revealed the misconduct of Ukrainian forces in the conflict zone. Armed groups have, in some cases, resorted to execution as a punishment for crimes or disciplinary acts for misconduct in their own ranks.''

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2016/07/un-report-2014-16-killings-ukraine-highlights-rampant-impunity

Edited by Occult1
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19 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

While some of these reports are no doubt true, others may be propaganda. We should be aware of that as well.

The problem is that you are focusing only on one side. Ukraine has also committed war crimes since 2014. It has been well documented.

Ukraine: Ukrainian fighting tactics endanger civilians

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

 

Alleged war crimes by Ukrainian authorities & militias under scanner

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/alleged-war-crimes-by-ukrainian-authorities-militias-under-scanner/articleshow/91373384.cms?from=mdr

 

UN Commission has found an array of war crimes, violations of human rights and international humanitarian law have been committed in Ukraine

''Ukrainian forces have also committed international humanitarian law violations in some cases, including two incidents that qualify as war crimes.''

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/un-commission-has-found-array-war-crimes-violations-human-rights-and

 

Ukraine: Mounting evidence of war crimes and Russian involvement

“All sides in this conflict have shown disregard for civilian lives and are blatantly violating their international obligations,” said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International’s Secretary General, who travels to Kyiv and Moscow in the coming days. “

[...]

''Civilians from these areas told Amnesty International that the Ukrainian government forces subjected their neighbourhoods to heavy shelling. Their testimonies suggest that the attacks were indiscriminate and may amount to war crimes.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-russian-involvement/

 

UN report on 2014-16 killings in Ukraine highlights “rampant impunity”

''The report also documents killings within the armed groups and Government forces. This includes at least 121 cases of “intentional homicide” of Ukrainian servicemen, some of whom were whistle-blowers who revealed the misconduct of Ukrainian forces in the conflict zone. Armed groups have, in some cases, resorted to execution as a punishment for crimes or disciplinary acts for misconduct in their own ranks.''

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2016/07/un-report-2014-16-killings-ukraine-highlights-rampant-impunity

I'm asking specifically about Russia, and not Ukraine. I'll address those other articles you made at a later time. For your first article that actually came under criticism because it wasn't properly reviewed, and many officials actually resigned because of it.

Furthermore, yes, war crimes have undoubtedly been committed by both sides, but it's the frequency and the magnitude of these war crimes that distinguish Russia from Ukraine when using the label "terrorist state".

Again, I ask:

WITHOUT APPEALING TO WHATABOUTISM, CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE THAT RUSSIA IS NOT A TERRORIST STATE?

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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Russia is terrorist state. The troops they send to invade other countries are terrorists, not protected by Geneva conventions. Russian people have mental deficiencies, it may be due to social factors.

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1 minute ago, pellinore said:

Russia is terrorist state.

Of course it is. @Occult1 refuses to outright acknowledge that, though, which we can only speculate as to why... 

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1 hour ago, pellinore said:

But what can we do, Helen? All of us in Europe are wringing our hands and feel pity for the people without heating or water. 

We (Eastern Europeans, Slavs and Balts and others), we're not evil, we're just indescribably mean when necessary :D  The softest, most caring friends or the worst enemies possible - it's the history that shaped us to be like that. We're all descendants of the survivors so we are the survivors too. We know how fragile is life, so we cherish it, while embracing own mortality. This is what you see in Ukraine, in its truly heroic people.  

They will never surrender. And they'll **** up any enemy. No matter the cost. And they will always find the time and the way to feed the cats too.

 

But when stupid people, that, what is left after you purge the nation of anyone who had any spine or brains, are trapped in a totalitarian, cultist regime (such as russian) for such a long time (for more than hundred years already - unlike the rest of the EE, russia never truly distanced from their soviet past), then you end up with a seriously mentally challenged nation. They want putler to keep giving them the illusion of their supremacy. They don't want to see the reality, the reality offends them. Etc. 

There's no salvation for that russia. It's been braindead for couple decades already anyway. 

It has to die so the new one can grow from the compost pile. Not that I truly care anymore. I don't. Whatever they do with themselves, fine, just denuclearize the imbeciles (they proved themselves too stupid to be trusted with nukes - it can and will be done by economic pressure, unless things develop in a more hot and broader war way), keep a lot of eyes on them, keep them out of EUropean business, ban them from owning anything in the West, ban their propaganda, nationalize their property, name and prevent from further hostile actions every traitor they owned in the West etc.   

Which is what NATO could help speed up a little :D It is wiser to let russia implode on its own, but my personal wish certainly is that the inevitable happens sooner rather than later. 

 

What can we do? Never let it go, never forget, never forgive, never compromise with them, never trust them - and by "them" I mean not just putler's oligarchs, but each and every sack of **** that cooperates with them.

Politicians and businessmen are prone to conveniently forget stuff. Never forget. Keep talking about it. Keep the photos. Keep the videos. Keep bringing it up.

terrorist russia can't be negotiated with, it can't be met half way and crap. It must be defeated. 

So far, the West is still too cautious, but generally on the right track.  

We are already doing what should be done and russia will probably make it possible for the West to do what must be done too. 

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russia is losing its "allies". 

putler's attempt to expand "russian world" already seriously diminishes russian influence in -stans and other client states. 

If they weren't such wussies, they'd open a couple of fronts more. But they'll just wait for russia to crumble. I can understand their logic, if they could wait for 100 or more years, they can wait for few months now.  

 

edit to add: By the way, this is what putin's assets wanted to do with NATO. They failed. Instead, russian Asian alliance fell apart. tee-hee. If only putlerians were reading actual news, they'd know they're ****ed.  

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Bakhmut holds, and there are some highly educational videos related to that, only I can't post them here. 

 

'night, folks, I can hear my self-censoring chip sizzling, so I must go now :D  

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