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Russia Masses Military Equipment Near Ukraine Borders: A Prologue to WWIII?


Grim Reaper 6
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7 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Daily Mail is a tabloid.

The research was published by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs. I posted the link above.

Nearly half of Americans now wants Ukraine to settle for a deal. People are starting to realize that this war can't be won.

''A similar proportion, 47 percentup from 38 percent in Julysay the United States should urge Ukraine to settle for peace as soon as possible so the costs aren’t so great for American households, even if that means Ukraine will lose some territory''

https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/growing-us-divide-how-long-support-ukraine?utm_source=media&utm_campaign=rpt&utm_medium=email&utm_term=fall-Ukraine-data

That's a significant change in public opinion.

Edited by Occult1
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The US needs to stop trying to force freedom and democracy on people that don't seem to have any interest in it. Korea and Vietnam only had or will have freedom and Democracy as long as America is willing to send their young men to die for them. Vietnam surrendered and welcomed the communists in before we could get all the way out and Korea wouldn't last a week if we pulled out.

Freedom only is real when the people that LIVE there insist on it and are willing to fight for it. That is NOT something that you find in many of the Eastern nations. People are different. We need to accept that and let people decide what they want and are willing to fight for in THEIR country.

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4 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

The research was published by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs. I posted the link.

Yeah, not interested in a tabloid as a source, though. Do better.

Quote

Nearly half of Americans now wants Ukraine to settle for a deal. 

Yeah, you've attempted to raise similar points in the past and I respond to each and every one of them with the same thing:

"Too bad for them."

Quote

People are starting to realize that this war can't be won.

Sounds like Russia needs to realize that, too. 

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11 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

The research was published by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs. I posted the link above.

Nearly half of Americans now wants Ukraine to settle for a deal. People are starting to realize that this war can't be won.

''A similar proportion, 47 percentup from 38 percent in Julysay the United States should urge Ukraine to settle for peace as soon as possible so the costs aren’t so great for American households, even if that means Ukraine will lose some territory''

https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/growing-us-divide-how-long-support-ukraine?utm_source=media&utm_campaign=rpt&utm_medium=email&utm_term=fall-Ukraine-data

That's a significant change in public opinion.

You left these out:

  • Solid majorities of Americans continue to support supplying Ukraine with arms (65%) and economic aid (66%), accepting Ukrainian refugees (73%), and sanctioning Russia (75%).
  • A plurality believes the United States should maintain its current level of support for Ukraine indefinitely (40%). Nearly three in 10 each say that the United States should intervene militarily to tip the advantage to Ukraine and end the war as soon as possible (27%)or that the United States should gradually withdraw support for Ukraine (29%).
  • Separately, Americans are now closely divided on whether Washington should support Ukraine “as long as it takes” (48%, down from 58% in July 2022) or whether Washington should urge Ukraine to settle for peace as soon as possible (47%, up from 38% in July).
    • Still higher than those who don't support it.

 

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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12 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

So how much are you willing to bet? As far as I see it your claims that they don’t work have as much weight as anybody else’s where it was claimed that Russia’s nukes don’t work. In my opinion it is bordering on naïveté. If their nukes didn’t work then we wouldn’t have NATO troops encircling Ukraine - they’d be in Ukraine, and Russia would’ve been out months ago. But I am guessing it’s just “an abundance of caution”…

Straight up, I've talked to a source or sources in a position to know for certain.   Remember that NATO is a defensive alliance and Ukraine is not a member, so NATO cannot really justify a conventional intervention.  If Russia started throwing around dirty bombs, nukes or chemical weapons, a case could be made for NATO intervention, and Russia knows it.  In terms of the abundance of caution, I expect the USA to become more aggressive now that they have solid intel that Russia's nukes are phony.  That being said, I don't expect that NATO countries want to get involved in a war in Russia, because wars are expensive, and having Ukraine destroying Russia for less than 1 cent on the dollar is a good deal for the US and European tax payers.

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7 hours ago, pellinore said:

Russia is acting like....Russia.

Russia is acting like... Mordor.

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11 hours ago, Occult1 said:

He speaks like he is privy with the Russian military.

Actually I sort of am privy with the Russian military.  Remember how I'm a translator?  My six degrees of separation can get me to some very interesting places and people. I did know a Russian nuclear bunker commander, but he died of cancer so it's not him. The Russian military leaks like a sieve btw, and no branch has lower morale than the РВиА, Ukraine war or no Ukraine war.

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4 hours ago, Occult1 said:

Ukraine doesn't make much use of GRADs.  This is more likely to be a Russian friendly fire incident.  The Russian  troops suffer a lot from friendly fire, so why wouldn't their civilians?  Ukraine has proven they can perform miracles of accuracy with their artillery.  This new doctrine has been a hallmark of Ukraine's ongoing military success.

5 hours ago, Occult1 said:

I do seem to remember Ukraine capturing cluster munitions from the Russians.  If the Russians see fit to use them, why can't Ukraine?

5 hours ago, Occult1 said:

War crimes of the armed forces and security forces of Ukraine: torture and inhumane treatment

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

This is pretty unlikely to be true.  Ukraine has a vested interest in fighting a squeaky clean war, as it needs to keep on the good side of world opinion.  It is possible that some isolated examples might occur among operatives gone feral, in which case there is a high likelihood that Ukraine will prosecute them in the future.  On the other hand, however much torture the individuals may have recieved, they are nothing compared to the killing fields of he FSB and the Russian military.

5 hours ago, Occult1 said:

Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian volunteer forces

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

Given Russian atrocities, who can honestly blame them, assuming this is actually correct information.

5 hours ago, Occult1 said:

Ukrainian Nationalist Volunteers Committing 'ISIS-Style' War Crimes

https://www.newsweek.com/evidence-war-crimes-committed-ukrainian-nationalist-volunteers-grows-269604

This makes more sense.  Remember that spies are not protected by the Geneva convention at all.  Most likely the so called torture etc are being applied to Russian agents, which is entirely within keeping with the Geneva convention.  Enemy combatants who aren't in uniform have no rights in a war zone whatsoever.

5 hours ago, Occult1 said:

LOL, this old chestnut.  Apparently Amnesty is unable to understand that rescuing civilians under fire is a good thing, but they class it as endangering civilians.

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1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Daily Mail is a tabloid.

The DM is extremely right wing.

The DM is entertaining, not least for its "Sidebar of Shame"- the right-hand side is a rolling column of celebrities often wearing skimpy clothes or in trouble through drink or drugs, with the DM often expressing faux outrage or mock approval whichever it thinks will get the most clicks. It also had a regular feature of photos of celebrities' daughters in revealing clothes, who had just reached the age of consent (16 years in the UK) with the headlines "My, hasn't she grown up!" or "She's a big girl now!", but they were shamed themselves from dropping that feature when "She's a Big Girl Now" was challenged for what it was and who it was pandering to.

They have a regular columnist, Dan Wootton, who presents GBNews (a cross between Breibart and Fox), and express opinions designed to appeal to right wingers; they supported Brexit (there is an authoritative view that Putin would not have dared invade Ukraine without Brexit having taken place as he needed a weakened Europe) and are subversive, in that they try to undermine the rule of law and democracy. They supported Hitler before WW2 and haven't changed their values.

Nothing they publish can be taken as factual or at face value, it always has a subversive or fascist agenda.

They are the UKs best-selling newspaper. I like it for its entertainment, but I wouldn't subscribe to it.

Rothermere's 1933 leader "Youth Triumphant" praised the new Nazi regime's accomplishments and was subsequently used as propaganda by them.[71] In it, Rothermere predicted that "The minor misdeeds of individual Nazis would be submerged by the immense benefits the new regime is already bestowing upon Germany". ...

Rothermere and the Mail were also editorially sympathetic to Oswald Mosley and the British Union of Fascists.[75] Rothermere wrote an article titled "Hurrah for the Blackshirts" published in the Daily Mail on 15 January 1934, praising Mosley for his "sound, commonsense, Conservative doctrine".

Daily Mail - Wikipedia

 

Edited by pellinore
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1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

Growing US Divide on How Long to Support Ukraine

Nearly half of Americans (47%) now say Washington should urge Kyiv to settle for peace as soon as possible.

''At the end of November, the United States authorized its latest assistance package to Ukraine, valued at $400 million to bolster the country’s security and defense in the war against Russia, now beginning its 10th month. A just-completed November 18-20 Chicago Council US assistance to Ukraine, both economically and with military equipment. But as the fighting drags into winter, the overall US public is now divided on whether the United States should support Ukraine as long as it takes or if it should urge Kyiv to settle for peace as soon as possible.''

https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/growing-us-divide-how-long-support-ukraine?utm_source=media&utm_campaign=rpt&utm_medium=email&utm_term=fall-Ukraine-data

 

See also the Daily Mail report: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11508101/Sorry-Zelensky-Americans-STALEMATE-Russia-Ukraine-war-unwinnable-side.html

It is obviously in Putin's interests to divide the West, he was successful with Europe by supporting Brexit and dividing the UK population, and he will try to divide the US. 

 

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What a joke...

Russia considers the attacks to its military bases a terrorist attack.

The level of ridiculous keeps being lowered 

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18 minutes ago, godnodog said:

What a joke...

Russia considers the attacks to its military bases a terrorist attack.

The level of ridiculous keeps being lowered 

Like a fat bully punching someone, then running to the teacher after the victim hits them back.

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13 hours ago, Occult1 said:

It is worth noting that Russia's tactics in Ukraine are similar to that which have been used by NATO in Lybia, Iraq, Serbia etc.

 

Here's a news flash from 1999:

NATO Pounds Yugoslavia Power Grid

''BELGRADE, Yugoslavia (AP) _ NATO warplanes battered Yugoslavia’s already crippled electricity system Sunday, leaving millions in the dark and threatening the country with water shortages.

As NATO’s air campaign reached the two-month mark, Western leaders differed on the means to ensure its success. President Clinton said the air campaign was working and would return displaced Kosovo Albanians to their homes.

But British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook indicated bombing was not enough, saying NATO must prepare to deploy troops in Kosovo _ with or without resistance from Yugoslav security forces.''

https://apnews.com/article/6696b485415073caaf4a5eb9e5b42476

 

Here are some statements that show how NATO ''cared'' about civilians:

 

"The fact that lights went out across 70 percent of the country shows that NATO has its finger on the light switch now," said NATO spokesman Jamie Shea. "We can turn the power off whenever we need to and whenever we want to."

[...]

"We realize the inconvenience that may be caused to the Yugoslav people, but it up to Milosevic to decide how he wants to use his remaining energy resources: on his tanks or on his people," Shea said.

While NATO sought to downplay the effect of the strikes on civilians, the raids remain politically sensitive.''

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/050499kosovo-nato.html

 

Looks awfully similar to what's going on today.

BS. Did Ukraine invade Russia or any part of it? After 5 years of Serbian atrocities in Croatia, Bosnia and decades of atrocities against the Kosovars, by Milosevic...what was to be expected? You cannot compare what NATO did in Serbia to what Russia is doing in Ukraine. 

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9 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Straight up, I've talked to a source or sources in a position to know for certain.   

Come on, "I've talked to some sources" isn't gonna cut it, man. Talking crap over drinks shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Quote

Remember that NATO is a defensive alliance and Ukraine is not a member, so NATO cannot really justify a conventional intervention. 

But they can justify other measures like setting up a no-fly zone like they did in the Bosnian war for/in countries who weren't actually a part of their alliance.

Why are they not, do you think?

Quote

If Russia started throwing around dirty bombs, nukes or chemical weapons, a case could be made for NATO intervention, and Russia knows it. 

A case could be made right now.

Quote

In terms of the abundance of caution, I expect the USA to become more aggressive now that they have solid intel that Russia's nukes are phony. 

They're not phony, that's why their position has remain unchanged.

Quote

That being said, I don't expect that NATO countries want to get involved in a war in Russia, because wars are expensive, and having Ukraine destroying Russia for less than 1 cent on the dollar is a good deal for the US and European tax payers.

"Wars are expensive" but so is providing $100B in aid. How long do you think a war between NATO/US and Russia would have lasted? That would have been over the first week. No contest.

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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It doesn't make sense. Ukraine IS in Europe, and soon will be in the EU. If the Russians want to see Ukrainians in Europe, they should just leave Ukraine (and then look at them and say, "Oh look Europeans, they are the people with TVs, games consoles, fridges and toilets- perhaps we could supply our own instead of stealing them").

 

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10 minutes ago, pellinore said:

It doesn't make sense. Ukraine IS in Europe, and soon will be in the EU. If the Russians want to see Ukrainians in Europe, they should just leave Ukraine (and then look at them and say, "Oh look Europeans, they are the people with TVs, games consoles, fridges and toilets- perhaps we could supply our own instead of stealing them").

 

Ukrainians who want to be Russian and under Putin can simply move to Russia. 

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@Nuclear Wesseland @Alchopwn

I have been following the discussion between you and tend to agree that Russia’s nuclear capabilities are not what we have been led to believe. I think they do have some that are operational but not in the numbers that they would have us believe. Given that Russia has been using missiles with no nuclear warheads it would seem that they are running out of tech and depleting inventory of whatever they have available to continue pounding at the Ukraine.

Now that Iranian drones don’t have fur coats to fly in the winter time this will severely affect Russia’s capabilities to maintain the blitzing that they were doing and likely once the ground is frozen the Ukraine will push forward.

Not likely Russia will use nukes even if they get trounced badly in the next winter months ahead.

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1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

Ukrainians who want to be Russian and under Putin can simply move to Russia. 

Steven Segal did it, maybe others of his persuasion would find Russia more congenial too.

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9 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

@Nuclear Wesseland @Alchopwn

I have been following the discussion between you and tend to agree that Russia’s nuclear capabilities are not what we have been led to believe. I think they do have some that are operational but not in the numbers that they would have us believe. Given that Russia has been using missiles with no nuclear warheads it would seem that they are running out of tech and depleting inventory of whatever they have available to continue pounding at the Ukraine.

Now that Iranian drones don’t have fur coats to fly in the winter time this will severely affect Russia’s capabilities to maintain the blitzing that they were doing and likely once the ground is frozen the Ukraine will push forward.

Not likely Russia will use nukes even if they get trounced badly in the next winter months ahead.

If Russia decides to use even 1 nuke , N.A.T.O. Will step in and neutralise their army , sink their navy , and destroy their airforce , so in the end they won't be a 3rd world country they will be a 4th grade world country , and seeing that they won't have many friends left ,then a revolution maybe forth coming as the people realise what's happening , it will take them decades to recover what they were before this War .

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The reality is always the opposite of russians say. 

(This particular poopler's waffling was meant for domestic use - only his zombies can make themselves believe there's anything "advanced" in russia. Also, poopler toned down his nuclear rhetoric since he was informed both by the USA and China - separately, of course - that they won't tolerate any use of nukes and that russian fairytale about Ukraine using dirty bomb are not convincing at all and won't be accepted as an excuse.)

 

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Putin: Nuclear risk is rising, but we are not mad

''Vladimir Putin has said the threat of a nuclear war was rising, but insisted Russia had not "gone mad" and would not use its nuclear weapons first.

The Russian president insisted that his country would only use weapons of mass destruction in response to an attack.

Speaking at Russia's annual human rights council meeting, he also said the war in Ukraine could be a "lengthy process".

Western officials believe Putin initially planned for a rapid victory.

Russia's capacity to use nuclear weapons has come under increased scrutiny since it invaded Ukraine in February.''

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63893316

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The bad news is, russian infiltration is real and annoying. 

The good news is, both russians and their b****es are idiots. 

 

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There's russian troll offensive all over the Internet, because russia is losing so hard in Ukraine it became a synonym for military failure, because price cap on russian oil already crashed the price of russian oil even lower than the cap, because russian stooges were arrested in Germany, because russian stooges in the US are not successfull in taking over the US, because China won't support poopler's adventures (it's not profitable and poopler's failure also casts very bad light on anyone perceived as russian "ally")... all in all, everything and everyone associated with poopler is going to hell. 

Speaking of hell, oil depot in Kursk (that's in russia) was burning for 24 hours.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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