Russia Masses Military Equipment Near Ukraine Borders: A Prologue to WWIII?

[+and-then]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:02 PM, Grey Area said:

I don’t know too much about German politics or current affairs.

I had put the slowness in the German response early on down to the economic infrastructure Issues caused by cutting ties with Russia, and I had assumed the current issues around arms provision to Ukraine down to some form of residual post WW2 guilt.

I’d be interested to know what others here think.  One thing is certain, Germany is going to be losing a lot of its influence as a leading Western power.

With the kind of international frenzy associated with this conflict, Germany could well be blamed if Ukraine loses.  The same will be true if at some point America stops carrying this economic burden of not only providing huge stocks of weapons but even paying for the running of Ukraine's government.  All of those who are cheering Uncle Sam's help would be spitting on us a day later if the aid stopped.

[Unusual Tournament]

6 minutes ago, and-then said:

I've heard that Patriot missiles can cost between 3-5 MILLION dollars per unit.  That's, PER MISSILE.  

Damn war is expensive . now imagine where Ukraine would be without America? The shittiest regional republic in the Russian empire. 

[+and-then]

6 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Damn war is expensive . now imagine where Ukraine would be without America? The shittiest regional republic in the Russian empire. 

What's really expensive is the graft and other corruption that goes on in DC under the cover of "helping Ukraine".

[jmccr8]

25 minutes ago, and-then said:

My opinions seem to cause you distress.  Get over it.  I'll say what I think as often as I choose to.  It harms NO ONE HERE.  Trying to suppress speech seems to be your MO.  Get over yourself...  Those whose bravado includes essentially ignoring the very real risk of a nuclear weapon, aren't impressive for their "courage".  They just seem to be terminally wrapped up in a vicious kind of tribalism.  You stick to doing YOU and I'll mind my own business.

Hi And Then

Nope no distress on my part just pointing out that the US is not the sole support for the Ukraine which is how you make your posts sound. Also you think we are all somehow minions of your government which we are not as this is an international forum.

If you don’t like what your government is doing then it is your responsibility to do something in your country to change that unfortunately you are in the minority in your country on this issue.

I am not surprising your speech I am telling you that you should think before you speak to foreigners about who you think is kissing your government’s ass.

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, and-then said:

What's really expensive is the graft and other corruption that goes on in DC under the cover of "helping Ukraine".

Too right! Who knows what black budgets are getting topped up. Who’s to even say if all those weapons are even headed to Ukraine and not to someone else. Imagine the black market for anti tank rockets 

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi And Then

Nope no distress on my part just pointing out that the US is not the sole support for the Ukraine which is how you make your posts sound. Also you think we are all somehow minions of your government which we are not as this is an international forum.

If you don’t like what your government is doing then it is your responsibility to do something in your country to change that unfortunately you are in the minority in your country on this issue.

I am not surprising your speech I am telling you that you should think before you speak to foreigners about who you think is kissing your government’s ass.

Sorry for intercepting this one @and-then but this concept @jmccr8 of a “United NATO” is a fallacy at best. Without America there just was no appetite to confront Russia. Germany would have **** down the EU for Ukrainian help and Turkey would have closed the region to foreign interference. Uncle Sam came to the rescue 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Unusual Tournament

[Alchopwn]

32 minutes ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Sorry for intercepting this one @and-then but this concept @jmccr8 of a “United NATO” is a fallacy at best. Without America there just was no appetite to confront Russia. Germany would have **** down the EU for Ukrainian help and Turkey would have closed the region to foreign interference. Uncle Sam came to the rescue 

To be fair, the UK was boots in from day 1 and so were most former Soviet states in the region.

[Alchopwn]

2 hours ago, and-then said:

I do, as well.  The greatest danger sign imo, is the faux bravado about Russia never using a nuke, even if they are being humiliated and pushed out of even Crimea.  One does not have to support Russia or its aims to credibly point out the dangers.  Those here who are cheering on like this chaos is some kind of game don't impress me at all.  I get the feeling they'd cheerfully shut dissenting opinions down, or worse, if they were given the power.  People like THAT are as dangerous as any Russian or Ukrainian.

Russian gear is broken down trash.  Why do you think their nukes are any different?

[Unusual Tournament]

4 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

To be fair, the UK was boots in from day 1 and so were most former Soviet states in the region.

…I stand slightly corrected. Poland and the UK could have helped but without the resources and threats both military and financial it would have been very messy. 

[Unusual Tournament]

7 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Russian gear is broken down trash.  Why do you think their nukes are any different?

Their tanks certainly are. 20 tons lighter and paper thin armour compared to the Abrams or Leopards. You know something is wrong when brand new Russian tanks are using Israeli and French thermals and targeting finders. Not sure the nukes are “broken down” thou since nuclear power is Russia’s principal deterrent and defence. 

[DarkHunter]

Seems Spain has decided to send Leopard tanks to Ukraine and Sweden is considering sending their Stridsvagn 122 to Ukraine, essentially an upgraded/modernized Leopard 2A5 made in Sweden.

Just need France to send Leclerc tanks and Italy to send the Ariete and then Ukraine will have every type of modern main battle tank NATO has at the moment.  I doubt either the Leclerc or Ariete will be sent to Ukraine as no Leclerc has been made since 2007 and no Ariete since 2002 and France only has 222 Leclercs and Italy 200 Arietes.

There is Turkey with the Altay tank but the first batch should be coming off the assembly line some time in 2023 so it's unlikely it will get sent to Ukraine either.

[Myles]

5 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

 

Nope no distress on my part just pointing out that the US is not the sole support for the Ukraine which is how you make your posts sound. Also you think we are all somehow minions of your government which we are not as this is an international forum.

 

The gap is large enough that I can understand that thinking.

In billions of $$

US - 48 billion

France 1.41

Italy - .67

Japan - .61

[godnodog]

12 minutes ago, Myles said:

The gap is large enough that I can understand that thinking.

In billions of $$

US - 48 billion

France 1.41

Italy - .67

Japan - .61

The EU has contributed with non military budget.

[Unusual Tournament]

3 minutes ago, godnodog said:

The EU has contributed with non military budget.

…and devastating sanctions 

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

When people are complaining how much the military equipment send to Ukraine cost, it is important to remember that most of the equipment have allready been paid for. So for example when the US sends equipment worth 1 billion dollars from their stock it doesn't actually cost the US anything. It was paid for years ago.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[spartan max2]

7 hours ago, and-then said:

I do, as well.  The greatest danger sign imo, is the faux bravado about Russia never using a nuke, even if they are being humiliated and pushed out of even Crimea.  One does not have to support Russia or its aims to credibly point out the dangers.  Those here who are cheering on like this chaos is some kind of game don't impress me at all.  I get the feeling they'd cheerfully shut dissenting opinions down, or worse, if they were given the power.  People like THAT are as dangerous as any Russian or Ukrainian.

So many of Putin's "red lines" have be crossed for nukes that I really don't see a nuke use as plausible.

Unless we literally invaded Moscow. 

Russia right now subsist off of support from China and Iran. If Russia uses a nuke I think their is a decent chance that China backs out of their support. Putin can't risk that. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by spartan max2

[Alchopwn]

5 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Their tanks certainly are. 20 tons lighter and paper thin armour compared to the Abrams or Leopards. You know something is wrong when brand new Russian tanks are using Israeli and French thermals and targeting finders. Not sure the nukes are “broken down” thou since nuclear power is Russia’s principal deterrent and defence. 

And their old tanks are even worse !  I still can't quite believe that their T-72s manage to reliably launch their exploding turrets into the air like a great flaming lollipop.

As for the nukes...  I have a confidential inside line on the fact that they are worthless.  If you think 1.5 million winter uniforms going missing in the Russian military is a bit of a corruption "oopsie", it is nothing compared to the theft of the nuclear weapons maintenance budget.  Each weapon needs an overhaul every decade.  Do you think Russia can afford that?  With the entire place run by Kleptocrats?  There is a reason that Russia's propaganda channel went from talking about tactical nukes to dirty bombs... Dirty bombs is what you get when your tactical nuke doesn't work properly.

[ThereWeAreThen]

Bout effing time the Leopards were freed...Apart of me thinks this was the plan all the long. Ukraine have been talking about a spring counter offensive for a while now.

[jmccr8]

8 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Sorry for intercepting this one @and-then but this concept @jmccr8 of a “United NATO” is a fallacy at best. Without America there just was no appetite to confront Russia. Germany would have **** down the EU for Ukrainian help and Turkey would have closed the region to foreign interference. Uncle Sam came to the rescue 

Hi UT

I am in no way saying that the US is not a major player but broad brushing us like we are all American subjects that he can insult the contribution of other countries members by not recognizing our independence from his country.

I read a lot of what he posts in many sections of the forum and don’t say much about his abrasive manner because I do see him as a friend and agree in principle with some of what he says but may not agree with how he presents his position so say something at times.

He often talks about wiping out other countries like Iran then calls us war mongers yet he is crapping his pants when talking about what is going on in this conflict. I am not a war monger but grew up in a different environment that he did so have had to face difficult times and didn’t back down yet an still here breathing on my own.

If he doesn’t like what he country is doing the he should take it up with his government rather that acting like us foreigners are forcing his country to do anything and speaking down to us.

We have all lived through decades of threats knowing that one day there could be a conflict with Russia. It would seem that this is it now the time and given how things are in Russia are it doesn’t seem like a good time to back down and let them regroup.

We don’t see all of the riots in Russia that are going on right now, their system is going to collapse internally because of Putin’s refusal to accept that he made a big fkg mistake invading the Ukraine so we should keep the pressure on and not the time to back down.

Yes things can escalate but doubt that it will go nuclear which seems to be his and some others fear. None of us deny the potential we just don’t think it is likely to happen. This conflict isn’t about just the Ukraine as it has just as much to do with all of Eastern Europe and their concerns of invasion as well.

I do think that there will be more internal conflict in Russia by factions oppressed by Russia that will take advantage of this conflict and work to subvert in Russia itself. 
Do you think turning Iran into a sheet of nuclear glass as And Then suggests his country should do is any different than war mongering or would hold less of a threat of nuclear retaliation, I don’t?

I don’t talk down to him over those comments even though I strongly disagree with that as a solution. I understand that we disagree and try to be fair in responding so do try to temper my words to address the issue and not the mouth behind them but calling people names as we are not at war with each other nor are our countries. I am not putting his people at risk so he has no reason to speak down to people about his fears of what his country is doing that is on him to do in his country with his people.

[godnodog]

let’s just hope the small amount given is only to test the waters, and if it can do a considerable difference then I’m betting more quantities will come, just like previous militar hardware.

Also more tank teams will need to be trained in these systems, despite believing plenty of ukr teams are already trained or near end of training in these, whether they are leopards or abrahams.

[godnodog]

This is a thought but I have this morbid curiosity about seeing news reports of the F35 against russian air defense systems, though I have not read anywhere,including rumours, anything about that.

Its not about trashing russian tech, its more about seeing some of the best newest gen stealth multi role planes against the “supposed” best systems in the world.

[jmccr8]

4 hours ago, Myles said:

The gap is large enough that I can understand that thinking.

In billions of $$

US - 48 billion

France 1.41

Italy - .67

Japan - .61

Hi Myles

I am not denying your country’s contributions and never have. Your country has been a major arms manufacturer and distributor for a long time and your economy is dependent on it. Your country has also been involved in ever conflict that has occurred since WW2 in one sense or the other making money from sales even if that meant trading drugs for money or financing revolutions in countries to gain access to resources that is the business you are in. My words are not condemnation it is what it is and your country’s economy is making money from this conflict. Sure looks like big numbers but the reality is much of that money stated as give to the Ukraine never leaves your country and is circulated in your own borders paying your people to manufacture weapons and components which is something that some of you refuse to acknowledge.

[spud the mackem]

19 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Cookie

Would you settle for a box of chocolate chip cookies instead.

Reading the "Cookie" posts I find that this guy is a complete lunatic with delusians of grandeur . His posts are so manic that it's not worth replying . Bye bye Cookie .

[Occult1]

4 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

So many of Putin's "red lines" have be crossed for nukes that I really don't see a nuke use as plausible.

Unless we literally invaded Moscow. 

Russia right now subsist off of support from China and Iran. If Russia uses a nuke I think their is a decent chance that China backs out of their support. Putin can't risk that. 

Russia has clearly said that they won't use nuke over Ukraine. That's not part of their doctrine.

Russia’s Putin rules out using nuclear weapons in Ukraine

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/10/27/russia-putin-nuclear-weapons-ukraine-00063801

 

They will use nuke as a deterrent if their existence is threatened. That's why attacking Crimea and providing those longer-range missiles to Ukraine is extremely dangerous.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Occult1

[Occult1]

 

German foreign Minister say they are ''fighting a war against Russia''.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Occult1