Russia Masses Military Equipment Near Ukraine Borders: A Prologue to WWIII?

[ExpandMyMind]

2 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

The American government just approved sending Ukraine a further 800 short and long range anti-air missiles, 9,000 anti-tank weapons, 7,000 small arms, 20 million rounds of ammunition, and drones which are probably switchblade.  UK has announced they are sending the starstreak manpad system to Ukraine.  There are reports now of various eastern european NATO members about to send Ukraine various anti-air systems, essentially S-200s, S-300s, and a few other Soviet era anti-air missiles.

The Russians are ****ed. Their military could legitimately be completely obliterated by an army that doesn't even need one vehicle of any kind.

And those are just the weapons made public.

Edited March 16, 2022 by ExpandMyMind

[jmccr8]

56 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

I think it's important to understand the context.

Of course the Western propaganda machine often tries to portray this conflict as ''Russia The Aggressor vs Ukraine The Defenders of Sovereignty.'' The reality is somewhat different. The complete disregard for Russia's security concerns by the U.S./NATO seems to be at the root of this war and your complete lack of recognition that this can even be a possibility only demonstrates that you are not seeing the big picture.

What you should really know about Ukraine

https://mronline.org/2022/02/24/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/

Hi Occult

NATO, the USA nor the Ukraine has been making warlike hostilities to Russia prior to the Russia invasion and obviously the Russian Putin is the only one with a problem with what the other guy is doing. Around here keeping your nose on your side of the fence is a common practice that maybe Putin should take heed of. Nobody wants to go to war but if Putin keeps pushing he may find that his own people will hand him his head.

[DarkHunter]

1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

The Russians are ****ed. Their military could legitimately be completely obliterated by an army that doesn't even need one vehicle of any kind.

And those are just the weapons made public.

Stuff is certainly not going well for Russia.  There has even been rumors of eastern European NATO countries considering sending T-72s and various armored vehicles they have in storage to aid Ukraine, not that Ukraine needs them as their captured Russian tanks and armored vehicles out numbers what they lost by a significant margin.

[+and-then]

I think Putin is reaping the harvest of his choice to depend more on low-yield nukes.  Why spend billions on training and new weapons when you can get into a fight with a larger, stronger power and when it looks like you'll lose... threaten them with small nukes?  The problem for us all is that it looks like his bluff may be called soon.  

[Occult1]

2 hours ago, and then said:

I wholly agree.  I have been quite clear in stating that if Putin or Xi were to make a Treaty with Mexico or Canada that would lead to a build up of arms and troops on our borders, it would be unacceptable.  It would be seen as provocative and it would be answered.  In fact, if Putin or Xi were today, to begin such a strengthening of their forces in such a manner, the U.S. would have no moral high ground to be angry.

The U.S. wouldn't tolerate what Russia is expected to accept. That's just a fact.

Quote

My question for you is simple.  There are already 3 former states of the USSR that have been given NATO membership and  share a border with Russia and Belarus.  Do you believe their status should be in Putin's hands, also?  IF he prevails in keeping Ukraine and decides to move on any of those Baltic states... would you agree he has that RIGHT?

We should be careful in attributing Putin things he probably doesn't want to do. I think it's more likely that Russia wants NATO to cease it's military activities in eastern Europe. They seek real guarantees. Formal agreements. Western leaders gave assurance to Gorbachev in 1990 that they wouldn't expand NATO eastward right to the Soviet borders and they broke that promise. Ukraine is where Russia's red lines have been crossed.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Occult1

[Occult1]

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says the Russian invasion could lead to the start of World War III

Russia may have already started World War III, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said in an interview with NBC News on Wednesday.

The outcome of Russian President Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine has yet to be decided, but it's possible the decision has already begun a path to a full-scale global war, Zelenskyy told “NBC Nightly News” anchor Lester Holt when asked whether he understood concerns from President Joe Biden about not escalating tensions with or provoking Moscow.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/world-war-iii-may-already-started-russian-invasion-zelenskyy-says-rcna19967

It seems Zelensky wants to drag the West into a Third World War.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

20 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says the Russian invasion could lead to the start of World War III

Russia may have already started World War III, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said in an interview with NBC News on Wednesday.

The outcome of Russian President Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine has yet to be decided, but it's possible the decision has already begun a path to a full-scale global war, Zelenskyy told “NBC Nightly News” anchor Lester Holt when asked whether he understood concerns from President Joe Biden about not escalating tensions with or provoking Moscow.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/world-war-iii-may-already-started-russian-invasion-zelenskyy-says-rcna19967

It seems Zelensky wants to drag the West into a Third World War.

Seriously? It’s Zelensky that’s dragging us to war? Not… you know…. Putin who INVADED a sovereign nation? You’re one twisted cookie Occult, I hope Moscow Centre is paying you well.

[glorybebe]

With Russia saying it wants Alaska back, that makes me wonder why exactly. So they could more easily intimidate Canada and the US? Or build up their war machines and soldiers like they did for Ukraine? With Russia also threatening Finland and Sweden already, too. They are trying to validate their attack on Ukraine. And the sanctions are pushing them to sprout a lot of propaganda.

At this point, I wouldn't put anything past Russia.  

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by glorybebe

[Occult1]

23 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Seriously? It’s Zelensky that’s dragging us to war? Not… you know…. Putin who INVADED a sovereign nation? You’re one twisted cookie Occult, I hope Moscow Centre is paying you well.

So you want the West to intervene and start a war with Russia? Because that's exactly what Zelensky is trying to do.

[DarkHunter]

3 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

So you want the West to intervene and start a war with Russia? Because that's exactly what Zelensky is trying to do.

Considering the amount of war crimes Russia has committed wanting a no fly zone isnt exactly uncalled for, but you are probably fine with Russia bombing hospitals.

[Occult1]

3 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Considering the amount of war crimes Russia has committed wanting a no fly zone isnt exactly uncalled for, but you are probably fine with Russia bombing hospitals.

If history is any guide, the establishment of any no-fly zone would likely involve the suppression of Russian air defences - that is, strikes on Russian forces.

So I take it you aren't exactly against starting WW3 ?

Edited March 16, 2022 by Occult1

[Occult1]

Interestingly enough, there seems to be some diplomatic solutions to end the war according to reports:

Russia Proposes Solution to End Ukraine War

A demilitarized Ukraine with its own army could be the solution to end the raging war in Ukraine, Russia said on Wednesday.

Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov was quoted by RIA news agency and Reuters as saying that "this is a variant that is currently being discussed and which could really be seen as a compromise."

It's not yet clear if the offer of neutrality has come from Ukrainian officials, but Russian chief negotiator Vladimir Medinsky has claimed so. On Wednesday, he told state TV that "Ukraine is offering an Austrian or Swedish version of a neutral demilitarized state, but at the same time a state with its own army and navy."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-proposes-solution-to-end-ukraine-war/ar-AAV8s6H?ocid=BingNewsSearch

 

[DarkHunter]

2 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

If history is any guide, the establishment of any no-fly zone would likely involve the suppression of Russian air defences - that is, strikes on Russian forces.

So I take it you aren't exactly against starting WW3 ?

As the Roman proverb goes, "war is never avoided, only delayed till the others advantage".  Russia has shown it is a threat to the global community, no need to repeat the mistakes of the mid to late 1930s, best to put Putin and Russia down now while they are still weak.

Even then if F-22s and F-35s are used along with a few destroyers with maybe a cruiser in the black sea it is unlikely Russian anti-air sites would need to be suppressed.  Especially if made clear to the soldiers manning them that firing would mean near certain death.

[GodIsWearingBlack]

It's crazy, to me, how eager Zelensky is to start WWIII.  He goes against all advice and actual statements.  Forever demanding no-fly zones, and trying to nudge NATO into action.  Even though Ukraine aren't a part of NATO.  

 

There's no doubt in all of this, that Russia are the bad guys.  Putin is sociopathic/psychotic.  As are the people who support him.  

 

But he has to understand that the moment NATO push a no-fly zone, and patrol it, is the moment the rest of the world get involved in this conflict, which could only ever end in nuclear strikes. 

 

I also really don't like the fact that he's constantly talked hard to the Ukrainians in general about winning this war.  To the point of forcing/encouraging (in that order), people to remain in the Ukraine to fight, even though they're most assuredly on the losing side.  No matter how tough they are, or how much they dig in, or how much support they have from around the world.  Innocent people are dying for that very reason.  Sure, at the end of it all, those deaths SHOULD be marked up to Putin/Russia, for being the aggressor/invader.  But Zelensky knows full well they have no chance in hell.  Because at the end of the day, Russia can just throw in a few strategic nukes and decimate cities full of innocents.  And it's just not good enough to claim the moral high ground in the aftermath.  

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by GodIsWearingBlack

[spartan max2]

7 minutes ago, GodIsWearingBlack said:

It's crazy, to me, how eager Zelensky is to start WWIII.  He goes against all advice and actual statements.  Forever demanding no-fly zones, and trying to nudge NATO into action.  Even though Ukraine aren't a part of NATO.  

The dudes trying to protect his nation and people. How does that not make sense to you?

Millions of refugees, destroyed cities, bombed hospitals, thousands dead. 

Of course he wants others to stop it 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

26 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

So you want the West to intervene and start a war with Russia? Because that's exactly what Zelensky is trying to do.

Nah, I’d have rather Putin not started the war. Which, it is. Which, he did. 
Whether or not it goes into a full world war depends on what Putin does next. He can always stop invading. 

[Occult1]

8 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

As the Roman proverb goes, "war is never avoided, only delayed till the others advantage".  Russia has shown it is a threat to the global community, no need to repeat the mistakes of the mid to late 1930s, best to put Putin and Russia down now while they are still weak.

That's just conveniently forgetting that the U.S. and Russia control 93% of the world's nuclear weapons.

Anyone advocating and pushing for war between these two countries is close to insanity IMO.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

18 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

Interestingly enough, there seems to be some diplomatic solutions to end the war according to reports:

Russia Proposes Solution to End Ukraine War

A demilitarized Ukraine with its own army could be the solution to end the raging war in Ukraine, Russia said on Wednesday.

Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov was quoted by RIA news agency and Reuters as saying that "this is a variant that is currently being discussed and which could really be seen as a compromise."

It's not yet clear if the offer of neutrality has come from Ukrainian officials, but Russian chief negotiator Vladimir Medinsky has claimed so. On Wednesday, he told state TV that "Ukraine is offering an Austrian or Swedish version of a neutral demilitarized state, but at the same time a state with its own army and navy."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-proposes-solution-to-end-ukraine-war/ar-AAV8s6H?ocid=BingNewsSearch

 

How exactly does one demilitarise while still having an army? Japan has a self-defence force that by law can only be used for defence of Japan, which if applied to the Ukraine would STILL involve resisting Putin.

[GodIsWearingBlack]

Just now, spartan max2 said:

The dudes trying to protect his nation and people. How does that not make sense to you?

Millions of refugees, destroyed cities, bombed hospitals, thousands dead. 

Of course he wants others to stop it 

It's easy to say that.  But his rhetoric is perhaps more war-mongering than that of Russia itself.  He's not talking about surviving, or being rescued, he's talking about winning.  Add to that the fact that Ukraine were considered pretty corrupt in the first place, before all of this kicked off, and I'd be a lot more comfortable if he was removed from power, and replaced with someone a bit more altruistic. 

 

I'm 100% against Putin and his sycophants.  But I'm not 100% for Zelensky and his sycophants.    

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

2 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

That's just conveniently forgetting that the U.S. and Russia control 93% of the world's nuclear weapons.

Anyone advocating and pushing for war between these two countries is close to insanity IMO.

That’d be the Fellas now demanding reparations from America, including the return of Alaska to Russian hands

[+susieice]

2 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

That’d be the Fellas now demanding reparations from America, including the return of Alaska to Russian hands

I don't see Alaska going under the Russian yoke easily either. That would be an attack on the US.

Edited March 16, 2022 by susieice

[spartan max2]

3 minutes ago, GodIsWearingBlack said:

It's easy to say that.  But his rhetoric is perhaps more war-mongering than that of Russia itself.  He's not talking about surviving, or being rescued, he's talking about winning.  Add to that the fact that Ukraine were considered pretty corrupt in the first place, before all of this kicked off, and I'd be a lot more comfortable if he was removed from power, and replaced with someone a bit more altruistic. 

 

I'm 100% against Putin and his sycophants.  But I'm not 100% for Zelensky and his sycophants.    

Yeah he isn't talking about surrendering lol. Maybe if it was your nation being blown apart you'd feel different.

And you raise an interesting point with nukes. What nations should we let Russia invade? Since nukes will always be a threat? Nukes can be used as a threat for anything Putin does if he wants. Let him invade tell he gets to Norway? 

Edited March 16, 2022 by spartan max2

[Occult1]

5 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

How exactly does one demilitarise while still having an army? Japan has a self-defence force that by law can only be used for defence of Japan, which if applied to the Ukraine would STILL involve resisting Putin.

A demilitarized Ukraine may mean the reduction of state armed forces.

They would still have defensive capabilities but not able to host any foreign military base, join any international military alliance, or participate in a war.

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Occult1

[Grey Area]

1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

We should be careful in attributing Putin things he probably doesn't want to do. I think it's more likely that Russia wants NATO to cease it's military activities in eastern Europe.

Well that’s even more unlikely to happen now isn’t it?  I mean the irony in suggesting Putin’s plan to get NATO to back off by invading a country in NATO borders, is obscene in its absurdity.

1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

Western leaders gave assurance to Gorbachev in 1990 that they wouldn't expand NATO eastward right to the Soviet borders and they broke that promise. Ukraine is where Russia's red lines have been crossed.

There is NO treatise, document, recording, handwritten napkin that formally states NATO promised not to expand.  I’m not saying it was never mentioned, but no formal document exists, which is important.

I think part of the issue here is that NATO is treated as a nation.  It is not, it is a mutual defence pact.  That is of course going to be desirable to many nations, particularly those that were once exploited by the former Soviet Union.

[spartan max2]

7 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

How exactly does one demilitarise while still having an army? Japan has a self-defence force that by law can only be used for defence of Japan, which if applied to the Ukraine would STILL involve resisting Putin.

Japan was also demilitarized after they tried to take over half the world. Meanwhile Ukraine had the audacity to sit there and not attack anyone