Tatetopa Posted January 26, 2023 #22751 Share Posted January 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, Occult1 said: Many people perceive the Ukrainian conflict as a redo of the Korean proxy war between the U.S. and Russia (USSR). One solution to end the conflict would be to draw a new border between Western/North Ukraine and Eastern/South Ukraine, including demilitarizing the zone between the two nations. Not many. But you may be on to something.. We could end the conflict by making a 100 mile demilitarized zone on the Russian side of the border between Russia and Ukraine. 2 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el midgetron Posted January 26, 2023 #22752 Share Posted January 26, 2023 27 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Hi El The majority of Ukrainian casualties is civilians that Russia targets and not military personnel So you are claim8ng more Ukrainian civilians have been killed than Ukrainian military? And how many Russian military do you think have been killed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted January 26, 2023 #22753 Share Posted January 26, 2023 1 minute ago, el midgetron said: So you are claim8ng more Ukrainian civilians have been killed than Ukrainian military? And how many Russian military do you think have been killed? About 500,000 civilians and about 200,000 soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el midgetron Posted January 26, 2023 #22754 Share Posted January 26, 2023 16 minutes ago, ThereWeAreThen said: Pilots aren't getting sent. Ukrainians will be trained in Europe and USA as normal. He's said American boots aren't going on tbe ground. So, why did Joe opposed sending just jets if his objection is hinged on sending pilots? Your argument that ignores the context of the original statement. If not, you should be able to answer my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted January 26, 2023 #22755 Share Posted January 26, 2023 3 hours ago, Trelane said: That experience coupled with increased and improved weapons/equipment will be one of the key elements to the Ukrainian victory. What of the massive casualties they are suffering? That experience comes at a cost. I certainly am not any kind of educated on armor or that kind of warfare but it only makes sense that operating new systems amounts to MUCH more than just driving and pulling triggers. Training them up will take time and regardless of the rhetoric here, those Abrams will likely become little more than another mobile artillery unit. Time will tell and if you turn out to be correct then this slaughter will hopefully end this year. My prediction is the same. Russia is not going to concede or surrender and before they are pushed all the way out of Crimea - losing their only warm water port - they will escalate as much as they have to. Sadly, I can also foresee those here who have been strongly pro-Ukraine since the beginning, not even blinking when NATO decides it must come in on the side of Ukraine. That's just how escalation occurs. I think the euphemism is "mission creep". I just hope you guys turn out to be correct, because whether you're willing to face it or not, there IS an abyss in the future of this conflict unless we try to stop it with negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el midgetron Posted January 26, 2023 #22756 Share Posted January 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said: About 500,000 civilians and about 200,000 soldiers. From both sides? Most estimates I’ve seen the civilian tolls are well below the military tolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted January 26, 2023 #22757 Share Posted January 26, 2023 Just now, el midgetron said: From both sides? Most estimates I’ve seen the civilian tolls are well below the military tolls. They never are, and its an indicator of porkies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Occult1 Posted January 26, 2023 #22758 Share Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, DarkHunter said: Even then you still were off in your claim with trying to say that Russia was occupying close to twice as much land as they actually are but it isnt surprising coming from you as you frequently ignore facts and reality to make Russia look better or push pro-Russian propaganda and misinformation U.K. Ministry of Defense claims Russia holds 18% of Ukraine. That seems to be the most realistic number. https://www.voanews.com/a/latest-developments-in-ukraine-dec-12/6872223.html I think Russia could increase that number back to 25-30% of territory if they are successful in the anticipated large-scale offensive from the east. Edited January 26, 2023 by Occult1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted January 26, 2023 #22759 Share Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said: I've got no idea what's the reason for Gen Milley's always extra pessimist takes, but since Ukrainians don't worry about them, neither should I. There will be no partitioning of Ukraine. Especially not the - so popular among trumpkins - division of Ukraine into eastern and western half. Ukrainians will throw you out, even if they have to impale each single orc on a fork and toss it over the border. General Miley is not pesimistic he is just holding back, like he should with the information. Better this way than screaming nonsens like the russians and their minions. No, there will not be a partition of Ukraine nor a defet of the Ukrainians. For a year now some here on UM, we know who they are, are telling us the same story...Ukraine's army is untrained, not enough manpower, russia is gonna get it done in a few days...blah, blah, blah... And? The "untrained" Ukrainians are not only standing their ground but pushing forward and liberating areas from the russians. What they now need is exactley what Germany and others are sending them. Tanks, and thanks. Edited January 26, 2023 by odas 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted January 26, 2023 #22760 Share Posted January 26, 2023 2 minutes ago, Occult1 said: U.K. Ministry of Defense claims Russia holds 18% of Ukraine as of Dec 22. That seems to be the most realistic number. https://www.voanews.com/a/latest-developments-in-ukraine-dec-12/6872223.html I think Russia could increase that number back to 25-30% if they are successful in the anticipated large-scale offensive from the east. So, russians actually lost territory, you admit? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted January 26, 2023 #22761 Share Posted January 26, 2023 14 minutes ago, and-then said: I think you are probably correct. The biggest unknown is how much more blood the ground will soak up before some sanity returns. Is it insane to fight for your home? Ukraine has been counted out the entire time and consistently has surprised people 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted January 26, 2023 #22762 Share Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, el midgetron said: Why does Biden need people to tell him to sit? So, you are saying Biden is incompetent? Im not sure why you are referring to the US threads or why I would care if people can see “what I’m doing” in it. In fact, several of the posters in this thread are active in the US thread also. We are no strangers to each other. Not sure why you think this is surprising. Hi El In those other threads you are calling him an incompetent senile old man that doesn’t know what he is doing and in this thread you are trying to gloss over your usual tactic to make him lucid and responsible make up your mind as to your blame game. I am not calling Biden anything nor am I agreeing with you Edited January 26, 2023 by jmccr8 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Occult1 Posted January 26, 2023 #22763 Share Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, odas said: So, russians actually lost territory, you admit? They made tactical retreats in Kharkiv and Kherson city last year, which decreased the total seize of areas in Ukraine they currently hold. Edited January 26, 2023 by Occult1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThereWeAreThen Posted January 26, 2023 #22764 Share Posted January 26, 2023 6 minutes ago, el midgetron said: So, why did Joe opposed sending just jets if his objection is hinged on sending pilots? Your argument that ignores the context of the original statement. If not, you should be able to answer my question. Sorry bare with me my dog kept me up last night I havent slept. Originally I thought he didn't want to send jets to appease putler and not to "escalate " the war. However I suspect Ukrainian pilots have been training on us jets for a while. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThereWeAreThen Posted January 26, 2023 #22765 Share Posted January 26, 2023 1 minute ago, Occult1 said: They made tactical retreats in Kharkiv and Kherson city last year, which decreased the total seize of areas in Ukraine they currently hold. So that's a yes then. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted January 26, 2023 #22766 Share Posted January 26, 2023 1 minute ago, Occult1 said: They made tactical retreats in Kharkiv and Kherson city last year, which decreased the percentage of territory they currently hold. I must admit you working hard to sell. But it's tough to find buyers. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Occult1 Posted January 26, 2023 #22767 Share Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, odas said: No, there will not be a partition of Ukraine nor a defet of the Ukrainians. For a year now some here on UM, we know who they are, are telling us the same story...Ukraine's army is untrained, not enough manpower, russia is gonna get it done in a few days...blah, blah, blah... NATO has provided the means to Ukraine to fight a protracted war. That's the difference. The Ukrainian Armed forces are also performing very well, exceeding the expectations. There is no doubt about that. But that's not enough to ''defeat'' Russia. It could at best create a stalemate. Which would force both side to make major concessions. Edited January 26, 2023 by Occult1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted January 26, 2023 #22768 Share Posted January 26, 2023 15 minutes ago, el midgetron said: So you are claim8ng more Ukrainian civilians have been killed than Ukrainian military? And how many Russian military do you think have been killed? Hi El The Russians have targeted civilians and in any places they have occupied and lost there are mass graves with thousands of citizens that have been raped, beaten, tortured, and murdered. Russia has not lost one civilian in this conflict nor has the Ukraine targeted civilians. These deaths outnumber deaths of military personnel in the Ukrainian forces. Russia has lost a lot of men due to their command in the Russian army that just threw them half hazard into the conflict not to mention that they were killing their own men for retreating or refusing to fight. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted January 26, 2023 #22769 Share Posted January 26, 2023 20 minutes ago, Occult1 said: 15% of Ukraine is more than 90,000 square kilometres of territory, roughly the size of Portugal or Jordan. Still a lot of land. Of what value is this land to Russia? Worth the lives and equipment and social unrest it has caused? In the American Revolution, there was the famous battle of Bunker Hill, said by historians to be formative to the coalescence of the American identity and confidence to take on the British. Funny thing is, the Colonials lost that battle and the British took Bunker Hill to little purpose but great loss of life. https://werehistory.org/bunker-hill/ While it is true that the British technically won at Bunker Hill by taking the field, their victory was in name only. The colonials inflicted substantial damage on the British army, destroying many of General Gage’s best troops. Some units were so badly decimated that, in the aftermath of the battle, they could barely field any men at all. The British units along the Colonial left in particular suffered greatly, losing nearly seven out of ten men, and almost all of their officers. The Redcoats were so shaken that they rarely ventured out of Boston again before abandoning the city the following year. https://www.americanhistorycentral.com/entries/battle-of-bunker-hill/ Although the result on the field of battle was a British victory, it was a moral victory for the American forces who proved they could hold their own with the British regulars. If you are going to draw comparisons, maybe this is one to keep in mind. Funny, the British General Gage in his report said the way to defeat the colonials would require supplementing the British army by hiring foreign mercenaries, the Hessians. Another parallel with Russia's current dilemma? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHunter Posted January 26, 2023 #22770 Share Posted January 26, 2023 18 minutes ago, and-then said: losing their only warm water port Russia has multiple other ports on the Black sea and Sea of Azov. The Russian port of Novorossiysk is on the Black sea and larger than any port in Crimea. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted January 26, 2023 #22771 Share Posted January 26, 2023 24 minutes ago, and-then said: What of the massive casualties they are suffering? I am relatively certain you would put your life at risk for your land and your freedom. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Occult1 Posted January 26, 2023 #22772 Share Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Tatetopa said: Of what value is this land to Russia? Worth the lives and equipment and social unrest it has caused? The population of eastern and southern is indistinguishable for that of Russia's. The Russian population seems to be overwhelmingly in favor of annexing those territories. Unlike southern and eastern Ukraine, and to a degree Kyiv, Lviv and western Ukraine remained distinctly un-Russified. I don't believe Putin has any real interests in capturing those regions. Edited January 26, 2023 by Occult1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted January 26, 2023 #22773 Share Posted January 26, 2023 11 minutes ago, Occult1 said: NATO has provided the means to Ukraine to fight a protracted war. That's the difference. The Ukrainian Armed forces are also performing very well, exceeding the expectations. There is no doubt about that. But that's not enough to ''defeat'' Russia. It could at best create a stalemate. Which would force both side to make major concessions. And Iran and others provided the means for russia including boots on the ground by foreign countries besides the Wagners. And? Russia does not have to be defeated in russia, just defeated in Ukraine, you know, the souvereign country they attacked. There will be no concessions. Concessions only delay another bigger war. I know that first hand. WE, in bosnia did that mistake. Ukraine cannot and will not fall for it as Zelensky himself stated using bosnia as an example. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHunter Posted January 26, 2023 #22774 Share Posted January 26, 2023 31 minutes ago, Occult1 said: U.K. Ministry of Defense claims Russia holds 18% of Ukraine. That seems to be the most realistic number. https://www.voanews.com/a/latest-developments-in-ukraine-dec-12/6872223.html I think Russia could increase that number back to 25-30% of territory if they are successful in the anticipated large-scale offensive from the east. I'll make sure to remind you of this when you are later proven wrong like with Ukranian aur defense being destroyed, Ukranian airforce being destroyed, Russia having air superiority over Ukraine, and Russia on the verge of taking multiple cities or about to have a massive breakthrough and about to destroy the Ukranian military. So far your predictions havent been so accurate or reliable 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted January 26, 2023 #22775 Share Posted January 26, 2023 40 minutes ago, el midgetron said: And how many Russian military do you think have been killed? How many is russia admiting to? Irrelevant how many we think, 50 million? What is russia saying about the numbers? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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