Russia Masses Military Equipment Near Ukraine Borders: A Prologue to WWIII?

[+and-then]

8 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

…well if they can delve deep into the mind of a mad man then they’re smarter than me

They can't.  They just seem to be so busy cheering it on that they don't care.  

[Occult1]

7 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

There should be some sort of consequence to invading someone else’s country.

Athletes shouldn't be punished. They wouldn't even be competing under the Russia flag, but as neutrals. That seems fair.

There is a danger of xenophobia in trying to abolish, exclude or isolate ''anything russian''.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Occult1

[jmccr8]

18 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

We have to be careful of rogue soldiers committing crimes, mistakes with air and missile targets, a state level policy of war crimes, and even a state using human shields.

For this reason no one here has any right to claim either side guilty or war crimes, and we should take such claims from the media and politicians with a pinch of salt. Let an independent tribunal review it after the conflict based on actual evidence. No one can claim both either side in a conflict is guilty as its not exactly free from bias.

Hi Cookie

So are you denying the mutilated bodies  of people that has been raped a tortured found in mass graves? How would you explain that? Did they do it to themselves and then buried themselves? They have evidence that Russian soldiers did it and boast about it, conversations with Russian soldiers with their wives telling them they were told to rape women and the wife saying okay but don’t talk about it when you come home. Your denial is just as much a travesty as the men that committed these crimes. Not one Russian civilian has been killed, raped or tortured in Russia do you understand the difference. Killing soldiers is what happens in armed conflicts between invaders and defenders.

[jmccr8]

14 minutes ago, and-then said:

They can't.  They just seem to be so busy cheering it on that they don't care.  

Hi And Then

So you think challenging comments is cheerleading?

[Black Red Devil]

4 hours ago, Unusual Tournament said:

Granite is a rock  No country collapses within during a war, sanctions or not. People need to understand American foreign policy is meant to manage Putin and give Ukraine the bare minimum to win without escalating. At some point dropping a small tactical weapon, even a dirty or chemical bomb is gonna speak louder than any column of T-90 tanks

What are you worried about?  According to this study,

Safest countries

A study in August last year found that the countries with the best hope of at least seeing their civilisation survive during the ten years after a nuclear war would be Argentina and Australia.

Bad jokes aside, it's highly unlikely it's going to happen because the consequences would be catastrophic for Russia above all. Russian troops in Ukraine would be hit with a barage of conventional warheads from all surrounding angles which would destroy all their attempts to take Ukranian territory.  The US DOD have already mentioned this as a likely escalation outcome. Also, even Stoltenberg has made it clear they have no intention to allow Russians to blackmail their way through sovereign territories in Europe.

Putin would be faced with the most important decision at this point.  Retaliate with nukes, bio and chemical warheads which the West will likewise retaliate with, jeopardising the livelihood for generations worldwide, or retreat within Russian borders and accept the consequences of his invasion and the deaths.  As tough to accept as it may seem, despite the devastation from a tactical nuke and the death of many from the invasion he may be even given a compromised solution with NATO (or the UN) at this point and save his bacon if he withdraws all his territorial ambitions.  There wouldn't be a bunker deep enough to save him, his family and Russians if a nuclear war eventuated.

Not sure how many warheads Russia could efficiently fire or how many would penetrate NATO defenses but they have developed hypersonic missiles and could strike with Subs and mobile units although they are surrounded by NATO bases and NATO does talk up their IAMD (Integrated Air and Missile Defense) and BMD (Ballistic Missile Defense) systems. 

In conclusion, 1) I believe firing nukes would be a Lose/Lose outcome for Putin.  2) Giving up all his ambitions even after a tac nuke could possibly lead to a Lose/Win outcome for him through a negotiated and diplomatic compromise which could lead to jail time but save his life and his family's.  3) He might get away with no jail time if he withdraws all troops now (I know, it sucks but that's politics). 4) If he continues the war he will lose and cause the useless deaths of hundreds of thousands, maybe millions.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Black Red Devil

[Duke Wellington]

6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Cookie

So are you denying the mutilated bodies of people that has been raped a tortured found in mass graves? How would you explain that? Did they do it to themselves and then buried themselves? They have evidence that Russian soldiers did it and boast about it, conversations with Russian soldiers with their wives telling them they were told to rape women and the wife saying okay but don’t talk about it when you come home. Your denial is just as much a travesty as the men that committed these crimes. Not one Russian civilian has been killed, raped or tortured in Russia do you understand the difference. Killing soldiers is what happens in armed conflicts between invaders and defenders.

How do you know what actually is and isn`t going on?

This is for a court to decide. And they will scruntinise the reliability of evidence, and check out the arguments made by both sides.

[jmccr8]

Just now, Cookie Monster said:

How do you know what actually is and isn`t going on?

This is for a court to decide. And they will scruntinise the reliability of evidence, and check out the arguments made by both sides.

Hi Cookie

Admission of guilt by Russian soldiers is pretty damning evidence just in itself never mind that command leaders gave orders to do so. Mass graves are well documented in occupied areas that were held by Russia and tactically retreated from.

Forensic science is well understood and employed so it is rather disingenuous of you to brush it aside as if it is a troublesome mosquito. Please do show that your brain isn’t cookie dough ready to be baked.

[Duke Wellington]

21 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Cookie

Admission of guilt by Russian soldiers is pretty damning evidence just in itself never mind that command leaders gave orders to do so. Mass graves are well documented in occupied areas that were held by Russia and tactically retreated from.

Forensic science is well understood and employed so it is rather disingenuous of you to brush it aside as if it is a troublesome mosquito. Please do show that your brain isn’t cookie dough ready to be baked.

They are videos on YouTube/Twitter.

The alleged mass grave was part of Ukraine, then Russia, then Ukraine. It could just as easily be argued that the Ukrainians after recapturing the area tortured and executed those who had collaborated.

This is why we dont listen to the claims of either side, and we dont issue judgement before a war crimes tribunal has assessed everything. Let due process take its course.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Cookie Monster

[jmccr8]

29 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

They are videos on YouTube/Twitter.

The alleged mass grave was part of Ukraine, then Russia, then Ukraine. It could just as easily be argued that the Ukrainians after recapturing the area tortured and executed those who had collaborated.

This is why we dont listen to the claims of either side, and we dont issue judgement before a war crimes tribunal has assessed everything. Let due process take its course.

Hi Cookie

Are you serious decomp is understood quite well as well as the types of insect infestation and egg laying in corpses. They can tell how long the body has been dead and the time of occupation of Russian invaders. There have been investigations that are not youboob videos. Phone conversations have been recorded and commanders have made public comments encouraging this type of behaviour so it is on record.

 

[acidhead]

1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

There should be some sort of consequence to invading someone else’s country.

Hmmm... 

Australia ----> Iraq (2003-2009) 

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

What are you worried about?  According to this study,

Safest countries

A study in August last year found that the countries with the best hope of at least seeing their civilisation survive during the ten years after a nuclear war would be Argentina and Australia.

Bad jokes aside, it's highly unlikely it's going to happen because the consequences would be catastrophic for Russia above all. Russian troops in Ukraine would be hit with a barage of conventional warheads from all surrounding angles which would destroy all their attempts to take Ukranian territory.  The US DOD have already mentioned this as a likely escalation outcome. Also, even Stoltenberg has made it clear they have no intention to allow Russians to blackmail their way through sovereign territories in Europe.

Putin would be faced with the most important decision at this point.  Retaliate with nukes, bio and chemical warheads which the West will likewise retaliate with, jeopardising the livelihood for generations worldwide, or retreat within Russian borders and accept the consequences of his invasion and the deaths.  As tough to accept as it may seem, despite the devastation from a tactical nuke and the death of many from the invasion he may be even given a compromised solution with NATO (or the UN) at this point and save his bacon if he withdraws all his territorial ambitions.  There wouldn't be a bunker deep enough to save him, his family and Russians if a nuclear war eventuated.

Not sure how many warheads Russia could efficiently fire or how many would penetrate NATO defenses but they have developed hypersonic missiles and could strike with Subs and mobile units although they are surrounded by NATO bases and NATO does talk up their IAMD (Integrated Air and Missile Defense) and BMD (Ballistic Missile Defense) systems. 

In conclusion, 1) I believe firing nukes would be a Lose/Lose outcome for Putin.  2) Giving up all his ambitions even after a tac nuke could possibly lead to a Lose/Win outcome for him through a negotiated and diplomatic compromise which could lead to jail time but save his life and his family's.  3) He might get away with no jail time if he withdraws all troops now (I know, it sucks but that's politics). 4) If he continues the war he will lose and cause the useless deaths of hundreds of thousands, maybe millions.

… thanks for the read. Bit surprised Australia has a unique enough civilisation to survive. It’s a land of immigrants and many cultures as you’re aware. Still it’s hard to not watch Russia walk away with a gain. Time is on its side and sooner or later another republican is gonna become president. If Putin localises a nuclear strike can’t see what nato is gonna do. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Unusual Tournament

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

1 hour ago, acidhead said:

Hmmm... 

Australia ----> Iraq (2003-2009) 

Yeap, we then suffered through a parliament lead by a maroon who thought you ate onions like apples and who despite having a lesbian sister denied equal marriage rights and then an utter buffoon who lied to everyone, dis nothing, insulted foreign leaders and insulted victims of bushfires and floods. 
we pudvour penance - it was called the LNP under Toned Abs and Scotty from Marketing.

[el midgetron]

KYIV, Ukraine — The recent dismissal of senior Ukrainian officials has renewed attention to the country's decades-long battle with corruption. 

Over the course of several days, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and government Cabinet members ordered the removal of more than a dozen advisers, deputy ministers, prosecutors and regional administrators from their posts.

At least three of the officials were implicated in various scandals revealed by the press. Ukrainian anti-corruption officials arrested one on bribery charges.

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/27/1151326940/ukraine-anti-corruption-efforts

For all our admiration of the heroism and grit of Ukrainians, we cannot escape the fact that Ukraine’s post-war recovery and promise for the future depend on ending corruption. In 2015, The Guardian called Ukraine “the most corrupt nation in Europe.” In 2021, Transparency International ranked Ukrainian corruption at 122 of 180 countries, alongside the likes of Pakistan, Liberia, and Russia itself. Ironically, Putin’s aggression presents an opportunity for fundamental Ukrainian reform.  

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/3808449-defeating-ukraines-other-enemy-corruption/

 

[Alchopwn]

42 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

KYIV, Ukraine — The recent dismissal of senior Ukrainian officials has renewed attention to the country's decades-long battle with corruption. 

Over the course of several days, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and government Cabinet members ordered the removal of more than a dozen advisers, deputy ministers, prosecutors and regional administrators from their posts.

At least three of the officials were implicated in various scandals revealed by the press. Ukrainian anti-corruption officials arrested one on bribery charges.

Actual removal of corrupt politicians ?  You won't see this happening in Russia. 

[Myles]

6 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Cookie

Are you serious decomp is understood quite well as well as the types of insect infestation and egg laying in corpses. They can tell how long the body has been dead and the time of occupation of Russian invaders. There have been investigations that are not youboob videos. Phone conversations have been recorded and commanders have made public comments encouraging this type of behaviour so it is on record.

 

I tend to feels similar to Cookie.  With all the propaganda that exists on both sides during war, it is best to let the courts rule on it.  

I feel that Russia is guilty of many war crimes.  

[jmccr8]

29 minutes ago, Myles said:

I tend to feels similar to Cookie.  With all the propaganda that exists on both sides during war, it is best to let the courts rule on it.  

I feel that Russia is guilty of many war crimes.  

Hi Myles

Yes you are free to deny the mass graves found in areas that were occupied by Russian soldiers if you chose to. There are at least 50 UN investigators in the Ukraine at present looking into this so that war crimes can be filed. Of course denial is par for the course just like some people still deny the holocaust of WW2.

it would have been rather difficult for Ukrainian soldiers to shoot, torture and bury civilians in cities occupied by Russia forces but hey by all means reject witness testimony of surviving citizens of occupied regions.

UN is using satellite imaging to find these graves during occupation by Russian forces while still occupied so that would tend to strongly implicate it was Russian soldiers that committed these crimes.

A brief search brings up lots of independent information that supports these crimes by Russians which is supported by intercepted communications 

[+Nuclear Wessel]

2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Actual removal of corrupt politicians ?  You won't see this happening in Russia. 

Midget's on a roll with this stuff. Lol.

[Myles]

8 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Myles

Yes you are free to deny the mass graves found in areas that were occupied by Russian soldiers if you chose to. There are at least 50 UN investigators in the Ukraine at present looking into this so that war crimes can be filed. Of course denial is par for the course just like some people still deny the holocaust of WW2.

it would have been rather difficult for Ukrainian soldiers to shoot, torture and bury civilians in cities occupied by Russia forces but hey by all means reject witness testimony of surviving citizens of occupied regions.

UN is using satellite imaging to find these graves during occupation by Russian forces while still occupied so that would tend to strongly implicate it was Russian soldiers that committed these crimes.

A brief search brings up lots of independent information that supports these crimes by Russians which is supported by intercepted communications 

I don't think that waiting for the final report is wrong or denying anything.   With 50 UN investigators there, there final report will be thorough.   

[+Nuclear Wessel]

8 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

This is why we dont listen to the claims of either side,

Pay attention to the external actors' actions, though. It's unlikely that NATO would continue to provide money and weapons to Ukraine if Ukraine was actively torturing and killing their own people.

[jmccr8]

16 minutes ago, Myles said:

I don't think that waiting for the final report is wrong or denying anything.   With 50 UN investigators there, there final report will be thorough.   

Hi Myles

I find this odd given your responses in another section of the forum where due process is irrelevant to you and shoot them is your go to answer. I am not saying this to provoke you nor do I intend for it to be a negative against you, I just find it curious and wonder why there is this discrepancy in your opinions with what is occurring in the Ukraine.

I haven’t suggested any punishment in this thread and have been talking about crime.

Edited January 30, 2023 by jmccr8

[Myles]

12 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Myles

I find this odd given your responses in another section of the forum where due process is irrelevant to you and shoot them is your go to answer. I am not saying this to provoke you nor do I intend for it to be a negative against you, I just find it curious and wonder why there is this discrepancy in your opinions with what is occurring in the Ukraine.

I haven’t suggested any punishment in this thread and have been talking about crime.

If we are not going to attack Russia for the things we are confident they did and are doing, there is no harm in making sure all the facts are gathered.   Do you think NATO should attack and kill all the Russians now.  If not, then we can wait. 

Yes, in the states, I would should people trying to break into and steal my stuff and hurt my family.  Wouldn't you? 

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, Myles said:

If we are not going to attack Russia for the things we are confident they did and are doing, there is no harm in making sure all the facts are gathered.   Do you think NATO should attack and kill all the Russians now.  If not, then we can wait. 

Yes, in the states, I would should people trying to break into and steal my stuff and hurt my family.  Wouldn't you? 

Hi Myles

Where have I said NATO should attack Russia nor have I said kill anyone or all Russians ?

No I would not shoot someone for breaking into my house and have chased people out twice for attempting a home invasion. I don’t own a firearm and have never felt the need to as physically I have always been able to take care of myself. I don’t have family living with me and have lived alone for most of the last 40 years. I always carry a knife though and have since I was a preteen. I grew up using fists and feet to defend myself so never felt the need to get a firearm.

You have said shoot them when talking about crimes that had nothing to do with your personal property or safety which is what I was referring to.

[Myles]

7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Myles

Where have I said NATO should attack Russia nor have I said kill anyone or all Russians ?

No I would not shoot someone for breaking into my house and have chased people out twice for attempting a home invasion. I don’t own a firearm and have never felt the need to as physically I have always been able to take care of myself. I don’t have family living with me and have lived alone for most of the last 40 years. I always carry a knife though and have since I was a preteen. I grew up using fists and feet to defend myself so never felt the need to get a firearm.

You have said shoot them when talking about crimes that had nothing to do with your personal property or safety which is what I was referring to.

I will continue to say shoot anyone who steals and destroys an innocent persons property.  That's not to say I think anyone who steals something should be shot.  The crime rate in the USA is so high now that soft punishments are not working.  

Many times it is 2 or more people breaking into a home.  Having a firearm can save your life.  

[el midgetron]

…..Davis, a Defense Priorities senior fellow and military expert, spent over two decades in active service, which included combat deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan, and was awarded two Bronze Star medals.

“It just doesn’t work that way in reality”

Calling the recent decision by the U.S., Germany, and other European nations to send tanks to Ukraine a “huge information operation ‘game changer,’” Davis cautioned that “information operations and claims don’t translate into reality on the battlefield.”

“From someone who has done combat operations in tank-on-tank fights; in operations patrolling the East-West border during the Cold War and its potential Soviet invasions; and was the second-in-command of an armored cavalry squadron for the First Armored Division in the mid 2000s in Germany; I can tell you that just having NATO tanks does not equal battlefield success,” he explained…..

……It’s not as though Ukraine has no tanks and so they need tanks to operate because suddenly [Ukrainian President Volodymyr] Zelensky said he needed 300 new tanks,” he said. 

“Well, the fact is they’ve got — depending on who you want to believe — somewhere around 1,000 tanks already and, according to Bloomberg, something along the neighborhood of 410 Soviet-era tanks have been given to them since the war started in addition to whatever survives from when they first started,” he continued.

“So they have tanks; they have artillery pieces,” he added. “We’ve given a bunch of those. They [also] have rocket launchers.”

As a result, Davis questioned “just what an Abrams or Leopard tank is going to do differently than the T72s, the T80s or the T64s that they have right now?” 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/01/29/exclusive-lt-col-daniel-davis-warns-nuclear-war-us-no-plan-ukraine-this-not-video-game/

[Occult1]

Kremlin: More Western arms for Ukraine will only lead to escalation

MOSCOW, Jan 30 (Reuters) - The Kremlin said on Monday that further supplies of Western weaponry to Ukraine would only lead to further escalation of the conflict there.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov also said members of the Western NATO alliance were becoming more involved in the conflict, but that their provision of arms to Ukraine would not change the course of events.

"Ukraine demands more and more weapons," Peskov said in a call with reporters, when asked to comment on a public request by Ukrainian Deputy Foreign Minister Andriy Melnyk for Germany to send Kyiv a submarine.

[...]

"It's a dead-end situation: it leads to significant escalation, it leads to NATO countries more and more becoming directly involved in the conflict - but it doesn't have the potential to change the course of events and will not do so," he said.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-more-western-arms-ukraine-will-only-lead-escalation-2023-01-30/

Edited January 30, 2023 by Occult1