The Menapia Quest

[Abramelin]

This is the odyssey of the Menapii, the oldest traceable Celtic tribe in Europe. They are the only tribe for whom historical evidence has survived both in Ireland and the Continent.

The Menapii, a Gaulish maritime tribe inhabiting the dense forests of the Rhine estuary on the North Sea coast, were first mentioned by Julius Caesar in 57 BC. During the Gallic War he singled them out as the only tribe never to surrender to his legions. As part of the Belgae, the Belgic tribal confederation, they had for centuries valiantly resisted encroaching Germanic tribes.

Celtic seafarers and traders, their ships had sailed the Irish Sea for centuries BC, establishing trading colonies on the Irish, Scottish,Welsh and Manx coasts, as confirmed by ancient and modern placenames. They worshipped Manannan mac Lir, their Celtic sea-god; a renown navigator, merchant and magician.

Carausius, a 3rd century AD Menapian admiral, became the first Celtic Emperor of the Britons(297-293 AD).

The Menapii are the only known Celtic tribe specifically named on Ptolemy’s 150 AD map of Ireland, where they located their first colony- Menapia – on the Leinster coast circa 216 BC. They later settled around Lough Erne, becoming known as the Fir Manach, and giving their name to Fermanagh and Monaghan. Mongan mac Fiachna, a 7th century King of Ulster, is the protagonist of several legends linking him with Manannan mac Lir. They spread across Ireland, evolving into historic Irish (also Scottish and Manx) clans whose descendants are found worldwide today.

https://normanmongan.netlify.app/the-menapia-quest/

[Ozymandias]

Ptolemy tells us that the Irish Menapii were located in north Wexford/south Wicklow. The Menapii (a P-Celtic spelling) were to be found in southern Holland and in Yorkshire, England. In Ireland they were known as the Fir Manach (a Q-Celtic spelling). They gave their name to the modern Irish county of Fermanagh. Fir Manach means ‘the Manachian Men’ or ‘Menapian Men’ (Fir = men in Irtish Gaelic). By the historical period they had migrated (or been displaced) to that part of Ireland to which they gave their name, County Fermanagh. T.F. O’Rahilly [Early Irish History & Mythology (1946); p.39] tells us that they were associated with north county Dublin at one point where it is recorded that Forgall Manach had his dún or fortress.

Interestingly, there is a townland near Rush, Co. Dublin, called Drumanagh and also the currently controversial promontory fort at Drumanagh (= Druim Monach, ‘the eminence of the Menapii’) [Drumanagh - Wikipedia] which has been the subject of court proceedings and which some have erroneously claimed to be evidence of a Roman invasion of Ireland. Promontory forts are exactly what one would expect of sea-faring invaders seeking a beach-head in new territory and a secure place from which to trade.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Ozymandias

[Abramelin]

Here a Dutch wiki about the Menapii, translated:

https://nl-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Menapii?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=nl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

(I hope that works.)

I use the Dutch Wiki because of the up to date map of the territory occupied by the Menapii ( - their territory extended further north than you see on older maps, and that means it extended further than present-day The Hague) :

This means that the Dutch province of Zeeland (that's also the islands on the map) was the territory of a Celtic tribe.

Now why do I find this interesting? Near one of these islands votive altars were found dedicated to a goddess, Nehalennia.

If you start Googling, you'll find out many have tried to translate the name of this goddess, using Germanic, ancient Frisian, and even Semitic ( here: Punic/Phoenician).

If Mongan, the author of the book is right, then we'll have to look for a translation using (P-) Celtic.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

@jaylemurph

We once had something of a discussion about the European Menapii showing up in Ireland.

You thought it was nonsense (OLB thread, from before the sh!t hit the fan).

Now, you're the resident linguist so I'd like to ask you: why is this nonsense?

On my now long dead notebook I had collected links to several online sources and books that claimed the Dutch and Flandrian coasts were inhabited by Celtic tribes instead of Germanic ones during and before Roman times.

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by locomekipkachelfantje

[Piney]

2 hours ago, locomekipkachelfantje said:

@jaylemurph

We once had something of a discussion about the European Menapii showing up in Ireland.

You thought it was nonsense (OLB thread, from before the sh!t hit the fan).

Now, you're the resident linguist so I'd like to ask you: why is this nonsense?

On my now long dead notebook I had collected links to several online sources and books that claimed the Dutch and Flandrian coasts were inhabited by Celtic tribes instead of Germanic ones during and before Roman times.

 

 

 

I think the original Frisians who the Romans wiped out were Celts.

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

I think the original Frisians who the Romans wiped out were Celts.

That's what I think too.

But they weren't wiped out.

Edited April 27, 2022 by locomekipkachelfantje

[Piney]

1 minute ago, locomekipkachelfantje said:

That's what I think too.

But they weren't wiped out.

Well the current Frisian speak Saxon and I through the mass graves were discovered.

[jaylemurph]

Caesar reduced their numbers considerably, if he didn't wipe them out!

--Jaylemurph

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

Well the current Frisian speak Saxon and I through the mass graves were discovered.

The current Frisians speak Low Saxon because they are of Saxon descent, and took over the vacant area once occupied by the Frisii, and also took over their tribal name.

The mass graves discovered? You mean the mass graves discovered in the Dutch province of North Holland? They were dug during the war between the Count of Holland and the Frisians of Wieringen and around? That was during the middle ages.

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Caesar reduced their numbers considerably, if he didn't wipe them out!

--Jaylemurph

I remember a Frisian ("Frisii") Malorix visiting Rome.

But it's getting late. Goodnight.

[Piney]

7 minutes ago, locomekipkachelfantje said:

The current Frisians speak Low Saxon because they are of Saxon descent, and took over the vacant area once occupied by the Frisii, and also took over their tribal name.

The mass graves discovered? You mean the mass graves discovered in the Dutch province of North Holland? They were dug during the war between the Count of Holland and the Frisians of Wieringen and around? That was during the middle ages.

I remember reading about a large Roman era site. But I have to dig through lots of PDFs before I can give you a author.

Maybe you need to organize the Hollish Celts. And kick all those boorish Franks out.......send them to Spain or something.

[Abramelin]

8 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

Caesar reduced their numbers considerably, if he didn't wipe them out!

--Jaylemurph

Not sure, but did you mean this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baduhenna_Wood

[Abramelin]

10 minutes ago, locomekipkachelfantje said:

Not sure, but did you mean this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baduhenna_Wood

The next is a Dutch site in English about anything Frisian & Frisii:

https://www.frisiacoasttrail.com/post/pagare-il-fio

I'll check it later on.

[Abramelin]

15 minutes ago, locomekipkachelfantje said:

The next is a Dutch site in English about anything Frisian & Frisii:

https://www.frisiacoasttrail.com/post/pagare-il-fio

I'll check it later on.

I'm in a traffic jam, and I don't have to drive myself now, so I have some time.

Check this wikipage, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisii

and read the chapter called "Wars". The Romans didn't wipe them out but resettled them.

Later these Frisii became known as the Frisiavones/Frisiabones, and lived further south on the islands and rivers in and near the delta in what's now the province of Zeeland and in Flanders.

One way of translating this name, Frisiavones/-bones is, 'Frisians living near rivers'. But then I use the Celtic word for river: abon/avon.

[jaylemurph]

10 hours ago, locomekipkachelfantje said:

Not sure, but did you mean this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baduhenna_Wood

No, I meant the Gallic Wars. They come up often.

--Jaylemurph

 

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

No, I meant the Gallic Wars. They come up often.

--Jaylemurph

 

I read the Bello Gallico a long time ago (English translation) but as far as I remember the Frisii were not mentioned.

Edited to add:

And I remembered correctly. Here it is:

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/10657/pg10657.html

No Frisii.

Edited April 28, 2022 by locomekipkachelfantje

[Abramelin]

On 4/28/2022 at 7:28 AM, locomekipkachelfantje said:

The next is a Dutch site in English about anything Frisian & Frisii:

https://www.frisiacoasttrail.com/post/pagare-il-fio

I'll check it later on.

"The whole history of the Celtic fields also supports the idea that the original or first Frisians (Frisii) were a Celtic people and not Germanic. No matter what the Romans said. "

https://www.frisiacoasttrail.com/post/the-killing-fields-of-the-celts

Edited April 30, 2022 by locomekipkachelfantje

[jaylemurph]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:45 AM, locomekipkachelfantje said:

I read the Bello Gallico a long time ago (English translation) but as far as I remember the Frisii were not mentioned.

Edited to add:

And I remembered correctly. Here it is:

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/10657/pg10657.html

No Frisii.

Abe, the title of your thread specifically mentions the Menapii. You can’t act all offended when people mention them like it’s off-topic. If you want to just talk about the Frisians, change the title. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Abramelin]

57 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Abe, the title of your thread specifically mentions the Menapii. You can’t act all offended when people mention them like it’s off-topic. If you want to just talk about the Frisians, change the title. 

—Jaylemurph 

Yes, the topic is the Menapians, but Piney and I had a chat about the Frisii, and you just added without quoting so I assumed you meant the Frisii.

But ok, you meant the Menapians.

They weren't wiped out either.

Btw., I started this topic because:

1- you once said something like it being nonsense that the Irish Manapi and Cauci were the same people as the Menapi and Chauci on the continent, and I wanted to know why;

2- it is always said that the Menapi, Frisii and Chauci were Germanic tribes, and there are clues they were Celtic instead.

 

There's a pdf online about the Cimbri and Teutons being Celtic also.

Edit:

I missed that: you thought I was offended?

No sir, you should know how I respond when I feel offended.

I don't feel offended when someone disagrees with me, or has a different opinion.

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by locomekipkachelfantje

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, locomekipkachelfantje said:

There's a pdf online about the Cimbri and Teutons being Celtic also.

Here's the link to that pdf:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjFxKuPzbz3AhWb7rsIHTm7By0QFnoECAYQAg&usg=AOvVaw3EIYVSqdpU4HI0BtgFpAo0

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, locomekipkachelfantje said:

2- it is always said that the Menapi, Frisii and Chauci were Germanic tribes, and there are clues they were Celtic instead.

 

The Germanic tribes were Celts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

[Abramelin]

6 hours ago, Kenemet said:

The Germanic tribes were Celts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

Well, maybe you should read that.

The Germanic tribes invaded from the north, and eventuelly pushed the Celts to the fringes of Europe.

The Menapi, Frisii and Chauci may have been Germanised already, but I think that during Roman times they were still Celts. Or maybe better, Celtic speaking tribes.

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, locomekipkachelfantje said:

Well, maybe you should read that.

The Germanic tribes invaded from the north, and eventuelly pushed the Celts to the fringes of Europe.

The Menapi, Frisii and Chauci may have been Germanised already, but I think that during Roman times they were still Celts. Or maybe better, Celtic speaking tribes.

Hi Rob

At one time my dad's mom's family was exiled to Germany from Scotland because they had abstract war tactics that were later invited back because of some difficulties back home. I have no doubts that there are genetic exchanges given my lust for life.

Being blond seem to be a bit of a barrier for known =Celtic genetics, red  hair maybe and I am a Celt with dark hair and not the fairest shade of white.

[jaylemurph]

The truth is we lack enough hard data to tease out the relationships between most of these Iron Age European tribes. They change names, speak multiple languages, and are often more political groupings spanning multiple cultures and languages than dedicated ethno-linguistics groupings. And they change significantly over time. 

The vast majority of historical (as opposed to archaeological) data comes from the Romans, since these tribes were not functionally literate. And the Romans had no motivation to investigate or appreciate the differences amongst all these groups — any more than most Americans could tease out the differences between al-Quaeda, ISIL, ISIS and the Taliban.

—Jaylemurph 

[Abramelin]

59 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

 

The vast majority of historical (as opposed to archaeological) data comes from the Romans, since these tribes were not functionally literate.

I think I remember, from the Bello Gallico, that Ceasar had intercepted a message from the Helvetians, written in something resembling Greek script.

Edited to add:

And there's the Baudecet golden plate, with a Celtic text of a century or more BCE.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41536783

Edited May 1, 2022 by locomekipkachelfantje