Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't

[el midgetron]

10 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

You need to know a bit more about those Azov Regiment idiots.  Did you know they have multiple openly Jewish members?   They have had Chechen Muslims and even Pakistani students in their ranks.  The links to Nazism are about as credible as Sid Vicious from the Sex Pistols being a Nazi because he wore a swastika t-shirt. 

The Azov regiment are fu**ing fools, but their alleged links to Nazism are because of their desire to distance themselves from the Communist older generation, and to shock and scare them. 

How can you have multi-ethnic, multi-religious Nazis fighting for a democratic regime led by a Jew?  Does... Not... Compute...

Fundamentally the Azov regiment are just soccer hooligans.

 

I know a bunch about the Azov Idiots. The defense of Azov as "not really being Nazi" is mostly just their own PR. Nazism it turns out isn’t widely received internationally. Most of the media's defense of Azov’s ideological leanings have come in the wake of Russian Invasion. However, there is 8 years of precedence prior to this of Azov’s far right ideology. 

 

As noted earlier in this thread Azov is media savvy. They speak and behave differently in front of the media than they do candidly. 

 

"“We have always been dissatisfied by the way Western media represent our movement,” Azov’s international secretary, Olena Semenyaka, tells Haaretz. “They label us as far-right, sometimes as a neo-Nazi movement,” she says. “Of course that’s a misconception. We are new nationalists.”"

"The Azov movement’s representatives also sing a different tune to their friends than to foreign journalists. Last year, Semenyaka gave an interview to the Nordic Resistance Movement – a neo-Nazi movement now banned in Finland – in which she said Israel was responsible for the refugee influx in Europe and lamented that “having had a minority of Jews involved within our nationalist political sphere has damaged our reputation.” She also said that if Azov ever came to power, Jews with ties to international capital “would not be allowed to stay” in Ukraine."

 

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-inside-the-extremist-group-that-dreams-of-ruling-ukraine-1.6936835

 

The above Haaratz article is a good read if you have any illusions about the ideological tenets of Azov. 

 

I also recommend this article which details the complexity of the Unknainian far right's relationship with the main stream Ukrainian establishment. -

"How Ukraine’s Jewish President, Volodymyr Zelensky, Made Peace with Neo-Nazi Paramilitaries on Front Lines of War with Russia" https://towardfreedom.org/story/archives/europe/how-ukraines-jewish-president-volodymyr-zelensky-made-peace-with-neo-nazi-paramilitaries-on-front-lines-of-war-with-russia/

As well as this article which details Azov's political action and involvement - 

"Entrepreneurs of political violence: the varied interests and strategies of the far-right in Ukraine" https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/entrepreneurs-of-political-violence-ukraine-far-right/

And it’s not just Azov battalion, there are several Neo-Nazi groups in Ukrainian that enjoy official recognition. The Neo-Nazi group C-14 for example is allowed to “patrol the streets” of Kyiv. The name C-14 based on the “14 words”, a Neo-Nazi slogan coined by American racist David Lane -

“We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children”

 

“In March 2018, Ukraine's capital Kyiv and S14 signed an agreement allowing S14 to establish a municipal guard to patrol the city's streets.[17] In June 2018, Hromadske Radio reported that Ukraine's Ministry of Youth and Sportswas funding S14 to promote "national patriotic education projects", for which the group was awarded almost $17,000.[27] S14 has cooperated with the Security Service of Ukraine,[28][29] and also awarded funds to far-right linked Educational Assembly and Holosiyiv Hideout.[2] On 19 November 2018, S14 and fellow far-right Ukrainian nationalist political organizations, among them the Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, and Right Sector, endorsed Ruslan Koshulynskyi in the 2019 Ukrainian presidential election.[30] where he received 1.6% of the votes.[31] In March 2021, S14 members were elected to the Public Council at the country's Ministry for Veterans Affairs,[32][33] with whom the group, alongside Azov, has partnered since November 2019; far-right groups and leaders were involved in shaping the ministry, which was formed in November 2018.[34]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S14_(Ukrainian_group)

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by el midgetron

[Jon the frog]

On 3/9/2022 at 7:18 AM, godnodog said:

All european countries are facing a surge in extreme right wings, some groups are just fascist and some are also nazi, nevertheless they are a minority.
Of these how many were financed by covert programs by Russia? 
What is Putin / Russia actions against russian nazis?

Now about the war crimes committed by ukrainian far right extremists cannot be ignored whatsoever, but using them as a reason for justification for invading Ukraine is just a joke.

Russia could be a great country in all metrics but it chooses to be the greatest 3rd world country.

Yep that's the problem with that war... Invading is all wrong, but deniying the facts is also wrong. Something could have been done way before this year to cull that nazi nonsense.

Right now youtube are allowing back ovation of the Azov bataillon and other nazi propaganda from Ukraine. They were barred before because they were labelled as terrorists and human right violating groups. It's a bit insane to allowing them back for propaganda purpose. With all the attention on Ukraine and their refugee, we forget all the others that are fleeing disaster in Irak, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc should deserve the same treatment. Mos are forgetten in some kind of internment camps arround the EU. Even the humanitarian aid send to Afghanistan have benne seized by the US...

Good speech this week on that at the EU parlement. Results is that the Dublin bureau was sacked and painted with Nazi propaganda...

 

[Alchopwn]

On 3/11/2022 at 11:10 PM, Gromdor said:

The US has military units with Confederate histories, but they don't promote slavery or white supremacy either: Army continues to honor Confederate unit histories, even as base names draw scrutiny - The Washington Post

This is a different and unrelated issue that has no bearing on the alleged "Ukranians are Nazis" propaganda beat-up that Putin is trying to use to justify atrocities his armed forces are committing.

[el midgetron]

14 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

This is a different and unrelated issue that has no bearing on the alleged "Ukranians are Nazis" propaganda beat-up that Putin is trying to use to justify atrocities his armed forces are committing.

Do you still think the Ukrainian Nazis are “alleged” ? 

[Alchopwn]

5 hours ago, el midgetron said:

Do you still think the Ukrainian Nazis are “alleged” ? 

They aren't real Nazis.  They aren't even proper Neo-Nazis.  I am a large and press a respectable weight, with a fair bit of jui-jutsu training. I used to get into punch-ups with Neo-Nazis in my youth because I was a Jello Biafra fan.  I learned Nazi tricks, their symbols, and how they identify each other.  You get to know who is a "true believer", and who is just a d*ckhead who wants to shock people.  There might be a few true believers in Mariupol, but presently they are fighting and dying for democracy.  On the other hand, the vast bulk of the Azov division are ideological lightweights who I can't take seriously, because I have seen the real thing and punched it in the teeth, and still have scars on my knuckles to prove it.

Frankly I think the Russian brand of totalitarianism is far far worse, as it is uncritical of the evil of the past, and in fact seems to glorify Russia's atrocious imperialist history, and in the genocidal policies which included the Holodomor that puts the Holocaust in the shade for sheer filthy murderousness.  Gassing is quick compared to starvation, and a quick death is better than a slow one when death is inevitable imo.  Russia is an unreformed totalitarian nightmare that dreams of re-inflicting itself on Eastern Europe, and that means horror for millions of people who deserve far better, and are getting it thanks to NATO and the EU.  What a shame this has not been made available to Ukraine. Yet.

I also think that the rise of Nazism in the USA is a far bigger threat to democracy as an internationally desirable ideology than a group of soccer hooligans in a provincial Ukrainian city under bombardment can ever even remotely hope to aspire to be, even if they survive.

It's a matter of common sense, evidence and proportion.  When I see American Jan 6th cretins chanting "Putin ! Putin !", I am sick to my stomach.  When I see Russia shelling maternity hospitals I am sick to my stomach.  When I hear about idiot punk brats pretending to be Nazis being shelled in Mariupol by real Nazis, I am more sympathetic to the punk brats than their aggressors.  How about you? 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Alchopwn

[el midgetron]

14 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

They aren't real Nazis.  They aren't even proper Neo-Nazis.  I am a large and press a respectable weight, with a fair bit of jui-jutsu training. I used to get into punch-ups with Neo-Nazis in my youth because I was a Jello Biafra fan.  I learned Nazi tricks, their symbols, and how they identify each other.  You get to know who is a "true believer", and who is just a d*ckhead who wants to shock people.  There might be a few true believers in Mariupol, but presently they are fighting and dying for democracy.  On the other hand, the vast bulk of the Azov division are ideological lightweights who I can't take seriously, because I have seen the real thing and punched it in the teeth, and still have scars on my knuckles to prove it.

I disagree. The Nazi punks of the 1980’s were far less genuine than the Ukrainian Nazis. If you have “seen the real thing” then can you describe what your metric is for what constitutes a serious Nazi? 
 

Quote

I also think that the rise of Nazism in the USA is a far bigger threat to democracy as an internationally desirable ideology than a group of soccer hooligans in a provincial Ukrainian city under bombardment can ever even remotely hope to aspire to be, even if they survive.

Have you read the things I’ve posted in this thread? Describing the Ukrainian Nazis as “soccer hooligans” almost seems apologetic. 

[Alchopwn]

9 hours ago, el midgetron said:

Have you read the things I’ve posted in this thread? Describing the Ukrainian Nazis as “soccer hooligans” almost seems apologetic. 

While your comments against them sound almost pro-Putin.  Stop the ad-hominem.

[itsnotoutthere]

[el midgetron]

4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

While your comments against them sound almost pro-Putin.  Stop the ad-hominem.

I’m asking you to defend your position that they are not real-Nazis. I’m not making a ad-hominem attack, just pointing out that despite all the information we have, claiming the Ukrainian Nazis aren’t really Nazis, comes off as apologetic. Its the rationale for why I am interested in your defense. 

I realize there is a conflict for you between supporting Ukraine and opposing Nazism. Two opposing things can be true at the same time. 
 

I do not support Putin. Just because I am willing to call a horse and horse doesn’t mean I support Putin. 

[itsnotoutthere]

3 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

I’m asking you to defend your position that they are not real-Nazis. I’m not making a ad-hominem attack, just pointing out that despite all the information we have, claiming the Ukrainian Nazis aren’t really Nazis, comes off as apologetic. Its the rationale for why I am interested in your defense. 

I realize there is a conflict for you between supporting Ukraine and opposing Nazism. Two opposing things can be true at the same time. 
 

I do not support Putin. Just because I am willing to call a horse and horse doesn’t mean I support Putin. 

Careful to follow the official line otherwise you know what will happen. Just think 'vaccines'....remember them?

[el midgetron]

32 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Roll up! roll up!, buy your favourite Azov merchandise *snip* show your support by wearing a shirt with the famous wolfsangel motive, previously used by the 2nd SS Panzer Division - Das Reich, well known for numerous war crimes, particularly the Oradour-sur-Glane massacre in France in 1944. I'm sure everybody will just love to be associated with Azov and their Das Reich heros

Reimagine that as “supporting Ukraine” merchandise and it would probably sell out LOL . This morning I saw my first Ukrainian flag displayed on a local residence. I suspect BLM is worried about being displaced in people’s front yards. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by el midgetron

[Autochthon1990]

Yeah what kind of s***hole country lets Nazis run around freely?

Oh right...

[el midgetron]

@Autochthon1990 Allowing a dopes the freedom speech and of public assembly isn’t quite the same thing as having Neo-Nazi battalions in your countries military or allowing Neo-Nazis to patrol the streets in a para-law-enforcement capacity.

I see you are willing to denounce Nazis in the US, are you also willing denounce Ukrainian Nazis? If not why?

[Autochthon1990]

1 minute ago, el midgetron said:

@Autochthon1990 Allowing a dopes the freedom speech and of public assembly isn’t quite the same thing as having Neo-Nazi battalions in your countries military or allowing Neo-Nazis to patrol the streets in a para-law-enforcement capacity.

I see you are willing to denounce Nazis in the US, are you also willing denounce Ukrainian Nazis? If not why?

Well no ****, I just don't think anybody on the right wing has a leg to stand on to gripe about that when ya'll are happy to let Nazis run around if you think they'll help your orange messiah win. 

[Wepwawet]

23 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

Reimagine that as “supporting Ukraine” merchandise and it would probably sell out LOL . This morning I saw my first Ukrainian flag displayed on a local residence. I suspect BLM is worried about being displaced in people’s front yards. 

Wel I'm glad you quoted my post before it was removed, I guess the link to Amazon was a problem. However, it's a fact that they are selling Azov branded goods with the wolfsangel, as a search will show very quickly, and I don't doubt that if you buy this stuff you will be supporting Ukraine, and the memory of the 2nd SS Panzer Division - Das Reich, and their numerous and horrendous war crimes.

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Careful to follow the official line otherwise you know what will happen. Just think 'vaccines'....remember them?

This situation is yet another instance where the media narrative seems untrustworthy simply due to its marching in lock-step.  IMO, Putin is clearly a murderous thug and has always been one.  The Nazis in Ukraine may very well HAVE been killing Russian speaking Ukrainians for 8 years but they did not START the conflict.  Putin did that back in 2014 when he decided to send in his "little green men" and retake Crimea.

I have no use for and neither do I support Nazis but so long as they stay within their own territory, I do not agree that Ukraine should have been invaded to remove them.  THAT situation should have been handled within Ukraine.  Now that Putin has taken on this element, he will have to deal with it within the rules of war or be punished for a very long time by the rest of the global governments.

Edited March 15, 2022 by and then

[Myles]

1 hour ago, el midgetron said:

@Autochthon1990 Allowing a dopes the freedom speech and of public assembly isn’t quite the same thing as having Neo-Nazi battalions in your countries military or allowing Neo-Nazis to patrol the streets in a para-law-enforcement capacity.

I see you are willing to denounce Nazis in the US, are you also willing denounce Ukrainian Nazis? If not why?

He doesn't get it.   He's always right in step with anything the left puts out.   

[odas]

2 hours ago, el midgetron said:

@Autochthon1990 Allowing a dopes the freedom speech and of public assembly isn’t quite the same thing as having Neo-Nazi battalions in your countries military or allowing Neo-Nazis to patrol the streets in a para-law-enforcement capacity.

I see you are willing to denounce Nazis in the US, are you also willing denounce Ukrainian Nazis? If not why?

If your country is attacked and the "dopes" are ready to defend it with all their gear, flags and amblems would you say no thank you or would you give them weapons?

 

[el midgetron]

4 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Well no ****, I just don't think anybody on the right wing has a leg to stand on to gripe about that when ya'll are happy to let Nazis run around if you think they'll help your orange messiah win. 

The political spectrum is a continuous circle. Extremists are a problem for everyone who is moderate. To me, antifa and Neo-Nazis are just slightly different shades of the same color. 

[Buzz_Light_Year]

4 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Yeah what kind of s***hole country lets Nazis run around freely?

The same country that let's you run around freely.

And you should remember that every time you walk out your front door.

[el midgetron]

2 hours ago, odas said:

If your country is attacked and the "dopes" are ready to defend it with all their gear, flags and amblems would you say no thank you or would you give them weapons?

I would give them weapons, is the short answer. However further consideration would have to be given to their place (if one) within the political establishment. Or the threat they could pose to the very thing you want them to defend.

The Ukrainian neo-Nazis are credited with being key players in the Maiden Revolution which ended with the ousting of President Yanukovych. They have since been given a seat at the political table in Ukraine so to speak. Frankly I think Ukraine has made a deal with the devil.

 

“But there is an increasing worry that while the Azov and other volunteer battalions might be Ukraine's most potent and reliable force on the battlefield against the separatists, they also pose the most serious threat to the Ukrainian government, and perhaps even the state, when the conflict in the east is over. The Azov causes particular concern due to the far right, even neo-Nazi, leanings of many of its members.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

Edited March 15, 2022 by el midgetron

[odas]

4 minutes ago, el midgetron said:

I would give them weapons, is the short answer. However further consideration would have to be given to their place (if one) within the political establishment. Or the threat they could pose to the very thing you want them to defend.

The Ukrainian neo-Nazis are credited with being key players in the Maiden Revolution which ended with the ousting of President Yanukovych. They have since been given a seat at the political table in Ukraine so to speak. Frankly I think Ukraine has made a deal with the devil.

 

“But there is an increasing worry that while the Azov and other volunteer battalions might be Ukraine's most potent and reliable force on the battlefield against the separatists, they also pose the most serious threat to the Ukrainian government, and perhaps even the state, when the conflict in the east is over. The Azov causes particular concern due to the far right, even neo-Nazi, leanings of many of its members.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

Only the bolded part counts in situations like that, everything else are ifs and buts and maybe's that have no weight in reality and what the status on the ground is.

[el midgetron]

17 minutes ago, odas said:

Only the bolded part counts in situations like that, everything else are ifs and buts and maybe's that have no weight in reality and what the status on the ground is.

So, because Putin invaded everything else is inconsequential? Ukraine is justified in its 8 year relationship with Neo-Nazis? Officially recognizing Neo-Nazi battalions as part of the armed forces? Agreeing to have Neo-Nazi organizations patrol the streets to enforce the law? Pinning a hero’s medal on the commander of Azov battalion? Naming streets after and erecting statues to Nazi collaborators? Sorry, but your bolded quote does not justify Ukraine’s relationship with Neo-Nazis any more than it would justify Hitler’s use of the Brown Shirts or the SS. Ukraine’s collaboration with Nazis goes far beyond your hypothetical of “if your country was  attacked”. 
 

But for the sake of argument let’s say your scenario does completely justify the Neo-Nazis in Ukraine. To which I ask you, is a government that has relied on Neo-Nazis for 8 years to maintain law & order, protect it’s border and provide military defense, a Government you think is worth defending? 

[thedutchiedutch]

Here is a pretty good in depth article from 2018 about Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem.
Link to source : https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

but the Ukraine is not the only country that must contend with a resurgent far right.

For example, Italy, Sweden, Germany, France & Hungary are actually home to bigger far rights threats than Ukraine.
link to source : https://time.com/5395444/europe-far-right-italy-salvini-sweden-france-germany/

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by thedutchiedutch

[Occult1]

3 hours ago, thedutchiedutch said:

Here is a pretty good in depth article from 2018 about Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem.
Link to source : https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

but the Ukraine is not the only country that must contend with a resurgent far right.

For example, Italy, Sweden, Germany, France & Hungary are actually home to bigger far rights threats than Ukraine.
link to source : https://time.com/5395444/europe-far-right-italy-salvini-sweden-france-germany/

 

 

Except that Ukraine is the only country to have officially incorporated a Neo-nazi faction into it's military.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Occult1