Near-death experiences: four possible theories

[psyche101]

1 minute ago, openozy said:

I'm saying most people don't report it.

But they do. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise. More people believe in an afterlife than those who know it can't exist. They outnumber thinking minds. 

[openozy]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

What would? 

Most people as you can see from others previous posting consider these benchmark cases. The best proof. 

Don't forget the old repeat a lie often enough..........

I don't know you are making the claim.

[psyche101]

2 minutes ago, openozy said:

That was pretty funny 101.

So was the culmination of that claim

Millions fell for it. And that's why it gets reported all the time 

Edited May 4, 2022 by psyche101

[psyche101]

Just now, openozy said:

I don't know you are making the claim.

No, I'm refuting the claim that the afterlife actually exists. I'm asking for best supporting evidence. There doesn't seem to be much. Just a bunch of unverified stories.

[openozy]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

But they do. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise. More people believe in an afterlife than those who know it can't exist. They outnumber thinking minds. 

Most people I know wouldn't report it.

 

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Millions fell for it. And that's why it gets reported all the time

Ok

[openozy]

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Just a bunch of unverified stories.

You know it's more as has been discussed.

[psyche101]

1 minute ago, openozy said:

Most people I know wouldn't report it.

You might be surprised. 

People can get pretty excited if they think they are capable of being extraordinary. 

1 minute ago, openozy said:

Ok

Look at paperback sales. 

It's embraced by many. 

[openozy]

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

No, I'm refuting the claim that the afterlife actually exists

No one knows if the afterlife exists but we are talking NDE's.

[psyche101]

Just now, openozy said:

You know it's more as has been discussed.

Where? 

Pam Reynolds? 

What you and I have discussed is far removed from those fanciful claims. More a universal recycling model is where you and I find a middle ground. That's not what posters like Preacherman are proposing. They are proposing death is somehow a replacement of the body with an ill defined "non material" version. A continuation. Not recycling matter and energy. 

That's where I see you apart from the kooks. You can talk about a scientific aspect without losing it. 

[openozy]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

People can get pretty excited if they think they are capable of being extraordinary.

I think they are more overwhelmed when this happens, it's a life changing event for them. Other people's opinions pale in comparison.

[psyche101]

3 minutes ago, openozy said:

No one knows if the afterlife exists but we are talking NDE's.

What do you think a classic NDE tale is about? 

It's a claim of afterlife. The moment where you cross to some fantasy realm but end up remaining. 

It's very Holywood but not very realistic. 

[psyche101]

2 minutes ago, openozy said:

I think they are more overwhelmed when this happens, it's a life changing event for them. Other people's opinions pale in comparison.

Depending on what you expect. Culturally and personally. 

That's why some claim they saw heaven. Some have even claimed to see hell. Cultural expectations.

When your brain is in death mode it's not exactly trustworthy. 

[openozy]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

That's where I see you apart from the kooks. You can talk about a scientific aspect without losing it

I can see why some get upset, I wouldn't call them kooks. I really don't care so I don't.

[openozy]

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

What do you think a classic NDE tale is about? 

It's a claim of afterlife. The moment where you cross to some fantasy realm but end up remaining. 

It's very Holywood but not very realistic. 

There is only one life for us, then you aren't alive.

[psyche101]

5 minutes ago, openozy said:

I can see why some get upset, I wouldn't call them kooks. I really don't care so I don't.

Personal pride is why they get upset. People don't like it when something they thought they knew is wrong. But people are different. I found it incredibly enlightening to be wrong. Gave me heaps to learn about. 

Don't worry, I'll call them kooks twice to cover for you

[psyche101]

6 minutes ago, openozy said:

There is only one life for us, then you aren't alive.

That's exactly what I'm saying. 

The recycling is the romantic part, like that neat Krauss quote.

[openozy]

5 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Personal pride is why they get upset. People don't like it when something they thought they knew is wrong. But people are different. I found it incredibly enlightening to be wrong. Gave me heaps to learn about. 

Don't worry, I'll call them kooks twice to cover for you

I think most get upset when people that know nothing of this ridicule them, so who's the kook?

[psyche101]

31 minutes ago, openozy said:

I think most get upset when people that know nothing of this ridicule them, so who's the kook?

The person who made the positive conclusion. We know it can't be a continuation of consciousness so there's no reason to consider traditional superstition. To insist the afterlife is a realistic option is kookery. Ones word isn't good enough. Evidence is required for a conclusion. Getting angry doesn't help anyone. Not saying that's you, but it's a lot of people. As I say, your recycling idea isn't far of what science determined actually happens. 

NDEs are the primary motivation for support for afterlife myths. A great many feel they are connected and prove continuation of existence. Suffice to say, they are wrong. We know that much for certain.

Man made conclusions are always the biggest red flag. Observation, repeatability upon demand and predictability is where answers lie. 

As I say, if something is happening there has to be a realistic explanation. 

People who get upset are being deliberately ignorant and very closed minded. We might not know exactly everything about the death process, but we know enough to discount an afterlife ideology. There could be something to learn here, afterlife myths just convolute the learning process is the real problem. 

[psyche101]

44 minutes ago, openozy said:

I think most get upset when people that know nothing of this ridicule them, so who's the kook?

You might be surprised at how much I know of afterlife myths. You have to know the subject to refute it. 

When my father passed I was highly motivated to seek out as much as I could on the subject. I spent several years learning all I could. 

[openozy]

51 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

You might be surprised at how much I know of afterlife myths. You have to know the subject to refute it. 

When my father passed I was highly motivated to seek out as much as I could on the subject. I spent several years learning all I could. 

I wasn't calling you a kook and sorry about your dads passing. I know you would have got as much info as possible on this and that's good. Even if we just are totally finished it's not a bad thing but I know we aren't. 

[psyche101]

3 minutes ago, openozy said:

I wasn't calling you a kook

All good I didn't take it that way. Were good. 

3 minutes ago, openozy said:

and sorry about your dads passing.

Thank you. Again, it was 2006. I'm good now. Was hard at the time but it prompted me to learn if I could speak to him again. I studied all that is known, chased down all the books I could find and read everything back in history. I found the Egyptian book of the dead the first real attempt at cataloging what mankind believes is the afterlife. Some of my first posts here might shock some posters. I was seeking when I joined. 

Spent several years on that pursuit. I put a lot of effort into it. I might not have found an afterlife but I did learn quite a lot. 

3 minutes ago, openozy said:

I know you would have got as much info as possible on this and that's good. Even if we just are totally finished it's not a bad thing but I know we aren't. 

It depends on your conclusion. You see us continue as pure energy. It's almost there, we also continue as matter. Most of our remains actually. And matter and energy are interchangeable. We just don't retain our brain patterns. It's very logical and easy to understand why it must be correct when you look at the whole process. 

Learning what we do know is just as fascinating as any superstition. More so in my opinion. 

[openozy]

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Was hard at the time but it prompted me to learn if I could speak to him again

When my young brother died at 23 his voice spoke into my ear saying it's ok, over and over then said it's pure love. I didn't know what to make of this and was confused until mum rang informing me of his passing. It did lessen the shock for me and stopped me losing it at the time. I can't prove or explain this and would never feel obligated to but I know he'd be alright with me telling the story.

[preacherman76]

9 hours ago, psyche101 said:

BS. You're a couple decades our of date and you know it. I've shown you so before. Sam Parnia has illustrated that the death process could last up to several hours. You're just repeating old beliefs as usual. 

If you hate science so much just admit it. You think magic makes the world work. And that's just silly. 

Yeah it  could last for several hours. This theory isn’t produced by any scientific means. Zero scientific measurements. It’s a bs way of dealing with the fact NDE’s happen. 
 

Or it could be exactly what the data and measurements say it is. that they are dead. Just as dead as anyone who has ever died. 
 

I love science. It’s you who turns your back on it for belief when it doesn’t suit you. 

[psyche101]

14 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Yeah it  could last for several hours. This theory isn’t produced by any scientific means. Zero scientific measurements. It’s a bs way of dealing with the fact NDE’s happen. 

Why do you make stuff up? 

https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/fulltext

Several studies have formed this theory. 

 

Methods

The incidence and validity of awareness together with the range, characteristics and themes relating to memories/cognitive processes during CA was investigated through a 4 year multi-center observational study using a three stage quantitative and qualitative interview system. The feasibility of objectively testing the accuracy of claims of visual and auditory awareness was examined using specific tests. The outcome measures were (1) awareness/memories during CA and (2) objective verification of claims of awareness using specific tests.

Results

Among 2060 CA events, 140 survivors completed stage 1 interviews, while 101 of 140 patients completed stage 2 interviews. 46% had memories with 7 major cognitive themes: fear; animals/plants; bright light; violence/persecution; deja-vu; family; recalling events post-CA and 9% had NDEs, while 2% described awareness with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual events related to their resuscitation. One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected.

Conclusions

CA survivors commonly experience a broad range of cognitive themes, with 2% exhibiting full awareness. This supports other recent studies that have indicated consciousness may be present despite clinically undetectable consciousness. This together with fearful experiences may contribute to PTSD and other cognitive deficits post CA.

 

And that was penned in 2014.

Here is a list of follow up studies that you keep saying do not exist. Which is just another lie, or ignorant assumption. Take your pick. 

https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/action/doSearch?AllField="Near death experiences"&journalCode=resus

 

14 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Or it could be exactly what the data and measurements say it is. that they are dead. Just as dead as anyone who has ever died. 
 

Or you could read up and stop making crap up on the spot. 

That's an older view. Has been for several years now. 

Suffice to say, you're wrong.

14 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

I love science. It’s you who turns your back on it for belief when it doesn’t suit you. 

Ohhhhhh what a lie. 

Belief isn't science. Read your sentence again, it's a bloody oxymoron genius. 

You are an enemy of reason.

[psyche101]

20 hours ago, openozy said:

There is only one life for us, then you aren't alive.

I've lived a pretty full life. One doesn't need superstition to be complete.