The Christian Church/The Kingdom of Heaven.

[Will Due]

18 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

they did fall according to god he threw them out of paradise because they gained knowledge from the tree 

 

But Jay, according to you, they didn't have any knowledge to know they were doing the wrong thing by eating from the tree. So how did that cause them to fall?

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Will Due

[jmccr8]

29 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

But Jay, according to you, they didn't have any knowledge to know they were doing the wrong thing by eating from the tree. So how did that cause them to fall?

 

 

Hi Will

Your guess is as good as mine. Seems to me that it is a god knowledge thing beyond the knowledge of mere mortal men. Why does anyone get in a tiff about anything, because of their egos and god has a big one.

To me it doesn’t really matter because this life is all I have any expectations of having.

[Davros of Skaro]

4 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Yes but as experience grows and the desire to gain more and more knowledge increases of what the "kingdom" is all about (literally the doing of the Father's will) after a while, there won't be as much room for doing something wrong deliberately anymore. The doing of the one will push out the doing of the other. Doing something wrong deliberately is a part of learning how to live without it. I guess it must be essential.

On a scale 1% thru 100% (1% sin every second & 100% being sin free) what would you rank yourself as?

[+and-then]

On 4/11/2022 at 9:54 PM, joc said:

Maker of Heaven and Earth

I usually stay out of these threads because I get dizzy chasing my tail   BUT.  That statement I quoted is actually wrong.  Christ is the Creator of all things.  Remember that when He came to sacrifice Himself and to heal the breach between God and man, that was NOT when Christ first came into being.  He is eternal and the scripture is clear that He is the Creator God of all things.

John 1:3 makes it clear to believers:

All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.

Just wanted to clear that misconception up.  I realize your beliefs will find no real need to be specific since you have no belief in Him but someday others may see this thread and they need to know the truth   

[Will Due]

44 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

On a scale 1% thru 100% (1% sin every second & 100% being sin free) what would you rank yourself as?

 

If sin is defined as doing wrong deliberately, then that is something from experience I avoid like the plague. And that's not to say that I don't have my moments.

But instead of being focused on the negative, I wonder if you'd be willing enough to rank yourself on another scale?

In the same range you mentioned already, where do you rank yourself as being deliberate in doing those things that puts you fully in The Kingdom?

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Will Due

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

If sin is defined as doing wrong deliberately,

Hi Will

Does it really matter if you are born in sin, one you did not personally commit?

[Davros of Skaro]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

If sin is defined as doing wrong deliberately, then that is something from experience I avoid like the plague. And that's not to say that I don't have my moments.

But instead of being focused on the negative, I wonder if you'd be willing enough to rank yourself on another scale?

In the same range you mentioned already, where do you rank yourself as being deliberate in doing those things that puts you fully in The Kingdom?

I do not dwell on sin, but try to keep rational, and decent. Keep in mind to me one man's sin is my everyday. 

If mind crime (thoughts) were out of it then I guess anywhere between 50-70%. But with the thought crime thing I imagine it would be lower say around 40%. Like I say I do not dwell on sin. I just keep account of myself in not what would Jesus do, but what's logicl. The flesh (put simply) needs to be wrangled in, and from my standpoint I see people think, or do much worse.

People trust me to watch their house, and, or pets when needed so that says something.

Sin is sin wether deliberate, or not. So what's your ranking?

[Davros of Skaro]

2 hours ago, and then said:

I usually stay out of these threads because I get dizzy chasing my tail   BUT.  That statement I quoted is actually wrong.  Christ is the Creator of all things.  Remember that when He came to sacrifice Himself and to heal the breach between God and man, that was NOT when Christ first came into being.  He is eternal and the scripture is clear that He is the Creator God of all things.

John 1:3 makes it clear to believers:

All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.

Just wanted to clear that misconception up.  I realize your beliefs will find no real need to be specific since you have no belief in Him but someday others may see this thread and they need to know the truth   

From my perspective the Son is the Father's Firstborn. The "Let there be Light" is his birth. He is the Image of God which we are a copy of. God's immediate subordinate power was the instrument he used for creation. So it looks like Jesus is one step away from being eternal as the Father. 

Just my humble opinion, but it can work both ways.

 

 

[Will Due]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will

Does it really matter if you are born in sin, one you did not personally commit?

 

Yes it matters because if you did not, at the moment of birth do something wrong deliberately, which is hard to imagine an infant being able to do, then you were not born in sin and are free of needing a substitute for The Kingdom which has always been there from the start.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Will Due

[Davros of Skaro]

56 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will

Does it really matter if you are born in sin, one you did not personally commit?

Sin is hereditary.

[Will Due]

Hello again, it's me
Your shoulder's where I sit
The half nobody sees of a silent partnership
I am here your help at hand

I'm never far away
A clear view from where I stand
I'll be there if you need me
I am your helping hand
My words, you've heard them all before
It's only for the sake of love

It's gonna be a new day for you
A new day for you
The stars have played their part
The past is gone and done
Have more faith in love
The best is yet to come

 

 

[jmccr8]

42 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Yes it matters because if you did not, at the moment of birth do something wrong deliberately, which is hard to imagine an infant being able to do, then you were not born in sin and are free of needing a substitute for The Kingdom which has always been there from the start.

 

 

Hi Will

All men are borne in sin that is what god said and why Jesus die is the way the story goes Adam and Eve were created in the image of god and we are born in the image of man, I don't know if it is fair as it is not the basis of my life and have my own philosophy to live by. That said it would still fall on gods knowledge and his rules.

[psyche101]

On 4/10/2022 at 3:17 PM, Will Due said:

 

I thought it would be interesting to explore the difference between a couple of things.

When picturing in your mind the Christian Church and the kingdom of heaven, it immediately becomes clear that they are not the same thing. One is spiritual and the other is mainly social.

 
The Christian Church, as it developed into what it is today, became a substitute for being individually spirit-led and a believer in the teaching that the kingdom of heaven is the enthronement of doing the Father's will in the heart of the individual. "The kingdom is within you".

*Deleted waffle*

The church is the place got people to get together and show their god that they are faithful. I don't remember the church ever being touted as the kingdom of heaven. Even in the Bible, you love parables so I take it you know of the woman at the well, Jesus's character in the story tells her it's not where you worship it's how you worship.

Churches are for support and religious guidance as far as I know and that's it. They aren't the claimed mechanism that gets you to heaven. To do that you have to convince yourself that religious tales are real and go through the ritual of illustrating unconditional belief. 

You seem more bent on justifying personal faith above. I don't think that's going to work well. An apprentice without a tradesman is an accident waiting to happen. 

the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath

[XenoFish]

The kingdom of heaven is within.

https://artofmemory.com/wiki/How_to_Build_a_Memory_Palace/

Call it an inner temple if you'd like. I figure it's the same basic concept with a different focus.

http://meganwagner.com/create-inner-temple/

Edited April 22, 2022 by XenoFish

[+Liquid Gardens]

11 hours ago, and then said:

He is eternal and the scripture is clear that He is the Creator God of all things.

It's 'clear' as long as you ignore other passages.

Mark 10:6 - (Jesus said) -  "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." 

Note 'God', not 'I'.  Are they the same being? :

Mark 10:18 - (Jesus said) - " And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

Doesn't sound like they're the same being, Jesus differentiates himself here.

From what I've read an additional interpretation is that Jesus was the 'instrument' used in creation.  Under that interpretation there's nothing incorrect about what @joc said, when someone says they built a house, we don't correct them and say it was actually the hammer.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Liquid Gardens

[+joc]

18 hours ago, and then said:

I usually stay out of these threads because I get dizzy chasing my tail   BUT.  That statement I quoted is actually wrong.  Christ is the Creator of all things.  Remember that when He came to sacrifice Himself and to heal the breach between God and man, that was NOT when Christ first came into being.  He is eternal and the scripture is clear that He is the Creator God of all things.

John 1:3 makes it clear to believers:

All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.

Just wanted to clear that misconception up.  I realize your beliefs will find no real need to be specific since you have no belief in Him but someday others may see this thread and they need to know the truth   

Thanks for the clarification,  but isn't it a bit redundant?..i.e.  The Holy Trinity... The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost....all one.

nonetheless...

For those who do actually 'need' to know the truth...I  offer:

Quote

 

The First Axiom of Dan

Belief is irrelevant with regards to the truth.  The truth just is.  The truth is not incumbent upon belief in order to be.  It just is.  Belief finds relevance in how one lives one's individual life.  The truth just is.

 

And for a limited time only, I will also give you absolutely free:

Quote

 

The Second Axiom of Dan

You cannot buy what they are not selling.

 

18 hours ago, Will Due said:

If sin is defined as doing wrong deliberately, then that is something from experience I avoid like the plague. And that's not to say that I don't have my moments.

[+joc]

16 hours ago, Will Due said:

Yes it matters because if you did not, at the moment of birth do something wrong deliberately, which is hard to imagine an infant being able to do, then you were not born in sin and are free of needing a substitute for The Kingdom which has always been there from the start.

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  Sin is not defined by YOU Will.  Sin is defined by the BIBLE.  Sin is defined as Adam and Eve sinned against God and thereby causing all humans there after to be born IN sin.  You are sinner.  Period.  You don't have to do a damn thing.  All you have to do is accept the Grace and you are forgiven...but wait...

...you don't even have to accept Grace.....in fact you are already forgiven by Christ on the Cross ...because...He said, Father Forgive Them.  Them  = Humankind.

So, there is no sin.  We are already forgiven Will...that was the Good News...but the Church didn't see it that way.  There is no profit in the Gospel if there is no Hoop to jump through.  So the Church, through the 'bible' chose what you believe.  Others you don't even know who...chose you believe in the Urantia story. You yourself have made no choices to believe anything...you have been programmed to believe.  Live it, Love it...you will never know any difference or what the real truth is until the lights are turned out and the gas is turned on...and then...it's kind of too late...

[Dejarma]

17 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Yes it matters because if you did not, at the moment of birth do something wrong deliberately, which is hard to imagine an infant being able to do, then you were not born in sin and are free of needing a substitute for The Kingdom which has always been there from the start.

 

 

what?

[+Hammerclaw]

 

[Ove]

The Christians are entering the kingdom of heaven (the kingdom of Christ )

Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

Luke 16:16 "the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it"

Acts 14:22 “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God”

John 3:5 “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

Colossians 1:13 "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son"

to eat and drink at the Lord's table

Luke 22:30 "you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom"

Luke 13:29 "people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God"

Edited April 23, 2022 by Ove

[Davros of Skaro]

@Will Due

Well what's your sin free percentage?

Dodging the question is a sin.

 

[Will Due]

On 4/21/2022 at 9:51 PM, Davros of Skaro said:

I do not dwell on sin, but try to keep rational, and decent. Keep in mind to me one man's sin is my everyday. 

 

I don't dwell on deliberately doing the wrong thing either. Rather than that, I try to stay focused on being "fully in The Kingdom" as you put it. Which effectively alleviates any urge to do the wrong thing deliberately. 

 

On 4/21/2022 at 9:51 PM, Davros of Skaro said:

If mind crime (thoughts) were out of it then I guess anywhere between 50-70%. But with the thought crime thing I imagine it would be lower say around 40%. Like I say I do not dwell on sin. I just keep account of myself in not what would Jesus do, but what's logicl. The flesh (put simply) needs to be wrangled in, and from my standpoint I see people think, or do much worse.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm one of those who does much worse. I doubt my numbers are as high as yours but where I rank on the scale of being fully in The Kingdom is something I wonder about sometimes, but just like not dwelling on sin, I don't dwell on where I rank there either. I just keep working on making progress. Which I know I need to do.

 

On 4/21/2022 at 9:51 PM, Davros of Skaro said:

People trust me to watch their house, and, or pets when needed so that says something.

 

Yeah trustworthiness is a pretty big deal. As well as loyalty. And I can't think of anything more important than making progress in being more and more loyal to being in The Kingdom here, before my time on earth is over and hopefully then, having the opportunity to continue to make progress hereafter.

 

On 4/21/2022 at 9:51 PM, Davros of Skaro said:

Sin is sin wether deliberate, or not. So what's your ranking?

 

When it comes to being fully in The Kingdom (that being dedicated to the doing of the Father's will) I'm pretty sure I'm somewhere near the bottom of the scale. Which keeping it in mind that way, encourages and motivates me to keep moving forward.

 

 

It's interesting what you said about "mind crime (thoughts)". I have always taken it for granted that primarily (if not totally) it is through our thoughts that the Father's will is revealed and learned. With the next step being its enactment. Which really isn't that hard to do.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Will Due

[Mr Walker]

On 4/22/2022 at 2:35 AM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

When I see inquisitions in footfall with players being burnt at the stake or being forced to renounce a team the as heretics then they might have more in common and I did not see beer and flirting in your playbook either.

In Europe soccer violence was so bad a t times that people were being killed for wearing the wrong colours. In Australia, soccer/football  teams had to stop using their national identifiers because there was too much violence between, for example, Serbians and Croatians.

  How about wine ?

and  I suspect that  there is more flirting in churches  than  among football crowds    Religion and football can both divide families, communities,   neighbours and nations .

[Mr Walker]

On 4/22/2022 at 1:42 PM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will

Does it really matter if you are born in sin, one you did not personally commit?

This is WHY the fact that we are no longer born sinful is important.

Christ died to wash awy those sins and give us a new start .

The rest is up  to us although, in christian theology, we will only succeed if we follow Christ, as a template for how to live our lives.   

[jmccr8]

5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

n Europe soccer violence was so bad a t times that people were being killed for wearing the wrong colours. In Australia, soccer/football  teams had to stop using their national identifiers because there was too much violence between, for example, Serbians and Croatians.

Hi Walker

It really isn't the sport some people look for fights and know they can start them quite easily during sporting events

7 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

How about wine ?

I don't drink wine last lime was over 40 years ago it took 6 guys to hold the door shut and one guy to lock it. Upside was I never had trouble with them again.

11 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

and  I suspect that  there is more flirting in churches  than  among football crowds    Religion and football can both divide families, communities,   neighbours and nations .

How would you know you don't go to church? 

I have nothing to divide, I'm single have no religion and don't follow sports. Single women yeah I might know something and if a married or in a relationship woman starts in on me I just tell them they are married to the guy that they can speak like that to and that isn't me.